How to deal with Chaos Sorc's Warp Rift

[ThongSong]

^ as stated in the title, how do you deal with it? In the most recent games this weekend, I was thoroughly, thoroughly screwed by this ability in a number of team games I played (team games, lolbalance, but in these circumstances they were occurred when I was facing the chaos sorc solo).

So I had the chaos sorc teleport my devs into a waiting pile of heretics. I pretty much hit the retreat button the moment I realized it was happening but my devs had absolutely no chance of getting out. I've seen it happen time and time again where set up teams are pulled out of position and are murdered in seconds.

The second case was when I had my asm squad retreating out of an engagement. there were 2 models left, about 1/3rd of their hp remaining, when BAM, 2 heretic squads teleported behind my lines into their retreat path. result = asm squad wipe.

Granted, my micro was (and probably always will be) sloppy and I was playing against someone who is (and probably always will be) a better player than me. Granted it was a hectic 3v3 with a lot happening. But I just want to know how the rest of you deal with this squad-wiping menace?

Rgds,

[Dark Riku]

I just hope they fix it vs setupteams. Even in retreat mode if they are still setup they will get teleported For the rest I find it fine.
Be ready after the first time it's used against you or even better be ready for the sorc player to buy it ^^ Arm yourself with some close range disruption.

[Sub_Zero]

This ability leaves no chance for supression teams. I would like to see it fixed too. Snipers need some shots to force off a supression team. And you can always hide your supression team from them. Jump squads jump right into the fray and you can save your supression team with good micro and right unit composition. But in no way you can prevent teleporting of your supression team into enemy lines. And that causes massive bleed.

By the way, what is the cost of sigil of the rift? 100/20? If so then it should be more if we keep it as it is against supression teams.

And answering to your question. You can teleport your devastators back with librarian's ability. Or disrupt enemy lines with assault marines. There are many ways.

The second case was when I had my asm squad retreating out of an engagement. there were 2 models left, about 1/3rd of their hp remaining, when BAM, 2 heretic squads teleported behind my lines into their retreat path. result = asm squad wipe.

However I see nothing wrong witih it.

[ThongSong]

with regards to the libby, getting a 350/60 (ish) sub commander, plus his gate of infinity wargear (forgot costs), just to deal with a 100/20 (sumfng sumfing) piece of wargear sounds a little... impractical to say the least. I know it has its uses but I could almost get a dreadnought for all of the libby's stuff.

I mean, I've had the fortune of having said chaos sorc player on my team before. and I was just absolutely shocked at how devastating against set up teams. It's essentially a zero-risk linebreaker that completely screws over a defending team with zero risks to the sorc.

[Torpid]

You can't it's completely completely broken atm for the reasons Riku already stated: It's broken and shouldn't teleport set-up teams once they've hit retreat, not to mention you shouldn't be able to use it through the fog of war.

At the moment it's just not viable to get a set-up team against the sorc and that makes him one of the best 3v3 heroes there is, because the range on that thing is by no means small. This thing's as OP as warp throw.

And fully upgrading the libby is more expensive than getting a dreadnought :L

[Maestro Cretella]

For starters, you're fortunate enough to main heroes who don't really need to get suppression teams, particularly against the Sorcerer. Things are a little bit tougher in this respect if you play an Eldar hero, or even another Chaos hero, who are a bit more reliant on suppression. The Sorcerer's three worst matchups are the Lictor Alpha, the Warboss, and the Force Commander, and one of the things these three heroes have in common is that they don't really need to get a suppression team (or don't have setup suppression in the case of LA). They already rock the Sorcerer extremely well without one. Since you're an SM player, you can pretty easily just go with a scout, tac, scout, ASM build. In these matchups, it's the Sorcerer who needs to worry about being able to afford everything he needs to counter what his opponents are throwing at him. In team games he usually just relies on teammates.

Next, be aware that a Sorcerer focusing on sigil is predisposed to certain kinds of builds, mainly a build that is composed of at least two heretics, since that's usually what is needed to reliably wipe setup teams with sigil. If the rest of the Sorcerer's tier 1 build includes a CSM squad and a havoc (which is a build I very commonly do), it means he has relatively low ranged dps and is relying almost entirely on the havoc to deal with a hero like the FC. Force the havoc off and you've usually won the engagement right there.

If the Sorcerer adds a second havoc or a noise marine squad on top of that (both of which I also do, especially the second havoc), recognize that this is an extended tier 1 that will probably result in the Sorcerer being late to tier 2. This could leave him especially vulnerable to vehicles (which he already struggles against), at which point he will need to balance his choices between giving up the suppression he desperately needs for a lascannon, or getting less timely and more expensive AV responses in the form of entirely new units in tier 2.

The sigil in retreat path chase is a new idea that I've been working on. It's very powerful and along with the Sorcerer's existing suite of squad wiping options, it makes him one of the very best retreat killers in the game. But I'm not sure it makes him the best, as I think even with this, he is still edged out by Eldar heroes and their retreat killing options. Compared to them, it requires a much more strict and prohibitive concurrence of conditions: 1) You need to win the engagement without sigil first, 2) you need to have enough viable (tics rather than havocs) squads at the end of the engagement to go through sigil, 3) enough of those squads need to be near the sorcerer as the engagement ends, 4) sigil needs to be off cooldown, 5) the Sorcerer needs enough energy to use sigil, 6) consume needs to be off cooldown if the Sorcerer does not have enough energy, 7) you need to assess all of these conditions and, when possible, create the ones you still need, in a time span of about 3-4 seconds. All of these have at some point prevented me from executing this technique, and the result is that this is something that happens only once in a while, rather than every engagement.

Team games represent ideal conditions for the Sorcerer, because he can have teammates that are not the Sorcerer. They play to his strengths, allowing him to take advantage of many of his individually overpowered abilities, while de-emphasizing many of the unique weaknesses that are a result of his awkward design. Fighting a Sorcerer solo, especially in actual 1v1 rather than in a team game lane, is a much less friendly condition for him.

It may not seem like the most fair answer to simply say that you just shouldn't get setup teams. However, you play heroes who, at the moment, do not exactly struggle with the Sorcerer. At least for the FC and the TM, you don't need to get a Devastator against the Sorc and it's a winning matchup for them anyway. For any regular unit, you can dodge sigil as long as you react.

[Raffa]

For starters, you're fortunate enough to main heroes who don't really need to get suppression teams, particularly against the Sorcerer. Things are a little bit tougher in this respect if you play an Eldar hero, or even another Chaos hero, who are a bit more reliant on suppression. The Sorcerer's three worst matchups are the Lictor Alpha, the...

etc

+1. Predictably.

[Dark Riku]

I'm a little bit confused by your post cretella.
Just because, in your opinion, these 3 heroes don't need setupteams and are an unfavored MU for the sorceror doesn't mean that sigil vs setupteams is ok.
Trying to control 2-3 tics without a suppression team isn't exactly easy :/

As stated before I like the wargear and think all the mechanics are fine.
Just the bug where it teleports setupteams in retreat mode should get fixed.

Also ThongSong was more asking for guidance than a balance discussion I think ^^

Team games represent ideal conditions for the Sorcerer, because ...

Doesn't this apply to every hero? :p

[HandSome SoddiNg]

^ as stated in the title, how do you deal with it? In the most recent games this weekend, I was thoroughly, thoroughly screwed by this ability in a number of team games I played (team games, lolbalance, but in these circumstances they were occurred when I was facing the chaos sorc solo).



Rgds,

Erm, Why would u get Devs against a Chaos Sorc, if you Do. Be prepared for a Teleporting Sorcerer or Sigil of the Rift . You need shotgunner scouts with Sgt or ASM disruptive jump to save the retreating squads,it prevent a Kill if you Position them Timely well. Normally u go 111 vs Sorc or 2 tacs/ASM,etc. Also Sorc players favors Havocs alongside 2-3 tics.

[Dark Riku]

Erm, Why would u get Devs against a Chaos Sorc, if you Do. Be prepared for a Teleporting Sorcerer or Sigil of the Rift . .... Also Sorc players favors Havocs alongside 2-3 tics.

You just say it yourself why you should get a hb :p To control the 2-3 tics.

It's fine that it would force a retreat on your hb. You can always get a 2nd one to counter this. What isn't fine is that it can straight up delete your investment.
Also the the sorceror won't always be where your hb is. After the sorc has purchased the sigil you can always keep it behind your lines or wait for the sorc to use sigil or send the hb of to defend a point alone. Maybe even turn it into a capping squad :p

The teleport on the other hand exposes the sorc who doesn't have a very high health pool. You can deal with that accordingly.

[Torpid]

It's fine that it would force a retreat on your hb. You can always get a 2nd one to counter this. What isn't fine is that it can straight up delete your investment.
Also the the sorceror won't always be where your hb is. After the sorc has purchased the sigil you can always keep it behind your lines or wait for the sorc to use sigil or send the hb of to defend a point alone. Maybe even turn it into a capping squad :p

The teleport on the other hand exposes the sorc who doesn't have a very high health pool. You can deal with that accordingly.

Exactly this. I think that's what Mr. Cretella was trying to say, that is, that sigil in itself is not an OP ability, unlike other comparable abilities in this game and the sorceror being the type of hero he is tends to be justified in having such a strong ability - sigil.

But you're totally right that that only applies if it doesn't bug out like it does now. I mean, I'm pretty sure this didn't happen in retail and it's not an intended feature of sigil. If it was fixed, sigil would be in such a better position balance-wise.

Team games represent ideal conditions for the Sorcerer, because ...

Doesn't this apply to every hero? :p

Yes, but to varying extents. Heroes like the sorceror, the RA, and all IG heroes benefit exponentially from a team game scenario.

[Ace of Swords]

Keep in mind the CD and ability cost, I think it's like 80 energy, that's quite alot, and you don't really want to keep killing tics too much.

[Vapor]

But you're totally right that that only applies if it doesn't bug out like it does now. I mean, I'm pretty sure this didn't happen in retail and it's not an intended feature of sigil. If it was fixed, sigil would be in such a better position balance-wise.

The behavior was the same in retail.

[Maestro Cretella]

I'm a little bit confused by your post cretella.
Just because, in your opinion, these 3 heroes don't need setupteams and are an unfavored MU for the sorceror doesn't mean that sigil vs setupteams is ok.
Trying to control 2-3 tics without a suppression team isn't exactly easy :/

As stated before I like the wargear and think all the mechanics are fine.
Just the bug where it teleports setupteams in retreat mode should get fixed.

Also ThongSong was more asking for guidance than a balance discussion I think ^^

I provide guidance and balance discussion. The balance discussion is there to illuminate some of the Sorcerer's weaknesses, as well as allow you to predict the Sorcerer's builds and counter them accordingly. I'm answering the broader question of "How do I deal with the Sorcerer?" in addition to "How do I deal with sigil?"

Part of my point, is that despite this ability, the Sorcerer is not only very beatable, but that he is occasionally at a big disadvantage against certain heroes, and Thong happens to play some of these heroes.

I think Thong is going at it the wrong way. Much in the way I wouldn't stubbornly throw walkers at a powerfist Force Commander, unless I was extensively prepared to manage the difficult task of keeping them alive, you should immediately question the choice to get a setup team as soon as you see the Sorcerer...especially when you gain the advantage by making other purchases. Instead of thinking about the exorbitant costs of potential tier 2 counters, think about the resources you save by not getting a devastator, and the resources your opponent has spent on sigil while you're severely limiting its effectiveness.

None of this is about making a moral judgment about sigil being "okay." It's about pragmatically looking to see whether or not this is something that can be dealt with in the context of the game's current balance (the answer is a resounding yes), and how to deal with it.

Acknowledging that a suppression team can be very helpful for countering melee, I have always personally felt confident handling melee with the rest of SM's melee counter options, usually 2x shotguns, ASM jump + merciless strike, along with hero abilities/wargear: battlecry, purification rites, TM MCB + Bionics.

If my academic theory style of writing is too much and I need to be more explicit: Don't buy Devs. Get scout-tac-scout-ASM instead of 1-1-1-1. Be aggressive and micro your units out of the way if you see sigil being used. Force the havoc off and the Sorcerer will not have an effective way of forcing off the Force Commander without the aid of a teammate. Come tier 2, get a vehicle. This will mess with the Sorcerer's composition. If he gives up suppression for a lascannon, the Force Commander now basically gets to walk around for free. If he has another havoc that's still suppression, get a teleporter pack in addition to ASM. It can be incredibly hard for him to deal with two very durable jump units. I know Thong also plays the TM. Make adjustments accordingly.

Team games represent ideal conditions for the Sorcerer, because ...

Doesn't this apply to every hero? :p

I'm going to answer this question with "yes." I'm also going to answer it with "no."

The only part I'm saying yes to, is that general idea that teammates can help compensate for the weaknesses of a given single hero.

The part I am saying no to, is that this isn't necessarily an equal, or even a net, gain for all heroes, and that the Sorcerer benefits disproportionately from this compared to other heroes. He is better at contributing to a team than he is at operating solo. The Sorcerer has self-sufficiency issues, especially because of certain showstopper matchups. These are kind of a big deal in 1v1, but not so much in teams, where self-sufficiency is missing the point, and where the Sorcerer can just use his overpowered abilities while his teammates cover his weaknesses.

There are definitely heroes who are very self-sufficient, and in particular the LA is a hero who I've always heard was stronger in 1v1 than in teams.

[Raffa]

There are definitely heroes who are very self-sufficient, and in particular the LA is a hero who I've always heard was stronger in 1v1 than in teams.

I disagree. I think the Lictor is far too strong in 2v2. Case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMEY21eKDeQ

He is too damn strong in all gamemodes and matchups except Eldar IMO. But he ain't getting changed it seems so instead of arguing about it I just play him now :p

And getting devs against the sorc is asking for trouble. It's like getting a bloodcrusher when your opponent has multiple suppression teams...*hint* *hint*

And Cretella you should post more often

[Kvek]

using a replay where the chaos player goes for triple tic squad vs La to prove that he's OP

[Raffa]

using a replay where the chaos player goes for triple tic squad vs La to prove that he's OP

Watch the whole game you retard. I lose a lot and the Lictor carries me long after lots of tics have died.

[Kvek]

using a replay where the chaos player goes for triple tic squad vs La to prove that he's OP

*sigh* watch the whole game retard. I lose a lot and the Lictor carries me long after lots of tics have died.

thanks for the compliment, i always said you are a nice guy.
i watched the whole game, osinski left your LA uncountered till t3

[Broodwich]

In general, dont get setup teams against heroes that can teleport. Its much cheaper and easier for them to counter your investment and then you have upkeep to worry about.

As far as sigil goes, like Cretella says, you have to kill/force off either his units to teleport or the sorc. Usually jump troops are a hard sell since his build includes AC tics that eat everything, so you have to have fast support and aoe weapons to deal with them preferably. If they run off then he has no more retreat kill options or much dps in general.

Basically, counter the tics and you counter his army

[Vapor]

In general, dont get setup teams against heroes that can teleport. Its much cheaper and easier for them to counter your investment and then you have upkeep to worry about.

Well sometimes people playing teleporting commanders will build a melee blob because they know their opponent is reluctant to make a setup team. In that case buying a setup team can be viable. Unless it's a Sorc we're talking about.

[Kvek]

In general, dont get setup teams against heroes that can teleport. Its much cheaper and easier for them to counter your investment and then you have upkeep to worry about.

why not ? just buy devs and full auto, and kb his ass off
or other abilites, like kinetic pulse, merciless trollblade and more

[Broodwich]

A. Not all heroes/armies have those abilities and
B. They come at a price too. When you buy a dev squad and then wargear/a new unit that does kb you are more than doubling the cost of a wargear like sorc teleport, or basically infinite what a hero with natural teleporting like wse or mek.
C. If you are buying a devastator its probably because you cant control his army without one, so while you are focusing everything on his teleporting hero here comes his army (that hes spent more on than you because you spent resources on the dev and countering his hero) and oops its in your butt now

You certainly can use one, but its a lot more micro and IMO you are better off upgrading your army to deal with his with something more mobile.

"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man"

[ThongSong]

Hi Cretella,

Thanks for your well-worded insights and replies. In hindsight I probably should have gone for a double shotgun scout + 1 tac + 1 asm squad. I was initially a bit hesisant to get asms because 3 squads of AC tics will pretty much mulch them in a melee brawl. My thunderhammer + teleporter pack and a dreadnought in t2 I felt did have a bit of an impact until your GK teammate came over and stomped by dread with his own. ah well.

Neway, appreciate the feedback and replies.

Regards,

[Kvek]

A. Not all heroes/armies have those abilities and
B. They come at a price too. When you buy a dev squad and then wargear/a new unit that does kb you are more than doubling the cost of a wargear like sorc teleport, or basically infinite what a hero with natural teleporting like wse or mek.
C. If you are buying a devastator its probably because you cant control his army without one, so while you are focusing everything on his teleporting hero here comes his army (that hes spent more on than you because you spent resources on the dev and countering his hero) and oops its in your butt now

You certainly can use one, but its a lot more micro and IMO you are better off upgrading your army to deal with his with something more mobile.

"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man"

Would you buy an asm squad instead of devs against double slugga+painboy and a mek ? You get devs to counter HIS army, while you get full auto, or even shotgun blast etc (every race has something like that in t1) to counter his tping hero, so he can't tie up ur devs

[Dark Riku]

You can't stop them from teleporting in though. Their mission will be successful. Desetting up the suppression team to let the rest of their army move in.
Unless you wanna count the the GK silence global :p

[Torpid]

No because as soon as he hits you to de-set up you move your devs backwards then the mek dies instantly to focus fire from apo/tacs and you double shotguns to deal with storms (shotgun blast -> nade) or pb/sluggas.

[Dark Riku]

No because as soon as he hits you to de-set up you move your devs backwards then the mek dies instantly to focus fire from apo/tacs and you double shotguns to deal with storms (shotgun blast -> nade) or pb/sluggas.

You can't be serious... In this imaginary scenario of yours the entire SM army is blobbed up on the devs waiting for the mek to tele in?
Cool, so the SM player is guarding the only point he has on the map?
Not the mention the high difference in total req and power present...

[Broodwich]

No because as soon as he hits you to de-set up you move your devs backwards then the mek dies instantly to focus fire from apo/tacs and you double shotguns to deal with storms (shotgun blast -> nade) or pb/sluggas.

Lol and how much have you spent so far vs him? 1 tac squad wont kill a hero with apo kb, so either you have 2 tacs and kill the hero or he can teleport after your dev again. Then you apparently have 2 shotgun scouts and a dev squad and apo bolter... and in your theorycrafting you have already countered his entire army, so why do you need the dev in the first place?

Either you are vastly overspending to counter some cheap squads or you've made a purchase that isnt very effective

[Torpid]

No because as soon as he hits you to de-set up you move your devs backwards then the mek dies instantly to focus fire from apo/tacs and you double shotguns to deal with storms (shotgun blast -> nade) or pb/sluggas.

You can't be serious... In this imaginary scenario of yours the entire SM army is blobbed up on the devs waiting for the mek to tele in?
Cool, so the SM player is guarding the only point he has on the map?
Not the mention the high difference in total req and power present...

Well in that scenario you have the advantage of them not having their shootas there, but honestly shootas don't make too much of a difference I don't think, I mean you only have to delay the melee blob till your devs re-set up.

Mek dies VERY fast to tacs+full auto, not to mention scouts can get a barrage off too before the melee units will be close enough to bother shooting them.

My point anyway is that the mek would do much better purchasing stormboys alongside battery pack+fully upgraded shootas or stormboys+painboy than teleporting in to deal with the dev himself, at least after the first 2 or so engagements with the dev.

[Ace of Swords]

but honestly shootas don't make too much of a difference I don't think

Beside forcing a retreat on scouts in 2 seconds and killing them in 4?

Oh yeah, and that was all your melee counters gone.

Besid from t2 and onwards devs become useless as the mek can get his shield, and In t1 without investing too much to not lose to a deff dred rush you won't put out enough dps to force if off and re-setup your deva before getting swarmed in orks.