I can't stop talking about Tacs n' Sternguard...

[Raffa]

From firsthand experience with them SG are smoothly balanced as it stands - enjoy using them and know how to fight them.

Dragonfire rounds are underused mostly because of player stupidity, but sometimes just a cbf to micro that much attitude. Learn dem hotkeys

[Sub_Zero]

Dragonfire rounds are underused mostly because of player stupidity, but sometimes just a cbf to micro that much attitude. Learn dem hotkeys

Not so often we see garrison usage and shootouts from covers are rare in t2-t3. ASM's stun grenades is rarely used but not because they are bad. Dragonfire rounds are the best looking rounds available for sternguard veterans. So sad we rarely get to use them...

[Ace of Swords]

Dragonfire are very good imo, gens go down fast with them, and it always comes handy having them on city maps when you send sterns as a capping squad, see angel gate,ruins of argus, tartarus harbor,gtg etc...

[Sub_Zero]

I don't have so much experience with sternguard veterans to conclude without doubts but I think vengeance rounds destroy generators faster

[Nurland]

Yeah. Vengeance are the best against gens. Other ammo types do the same dps agains gens as vanilla tac bolters.

http://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php?wpn=sm_bolter
http://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php? ... _vengeance
http://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php? ... ard_kraken
http://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php? ... dragonfire
http://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php? ... d_hellfire

Aren't gens building light?

[Magus Magi]

Dragonfire rounds are the best looking rounds available for sternguard veterans. So sad we rarely get to use them...

Dragonfire are very good imo, gens go down fast with them, and it always comes handy having them on city maps when you send sterns as a capping squad, see angel gate,ruins of argus, tartarus harbor,gtg etc...

I totally agree with you Sub_Zero. Although I focused on other elements when making my pitch, the awesome visual effect associated with Dragonfire rounds is definitely part of the appeal.

Ace of Swords, I'm certainly not arguing that Dragonfire rounds are bad at shooting units in garrisons. Like I said previously, Dragonfire rounds are not usually useful because their application is niche.

Also...when you said "see angel gate, ruins of argus, tartarus harbor..." were you basing your sentence structure on a particular citation system with which you are familiar? (Just curious.)

[Dark Riku]

Let them keep their levels (applies to Vangaurd too). It makes no sense for an upgrade to make your squad lvl1 again with less MS, HP and all that good stuff that comes with levels. Revert vengeance rounds to old range or reload speed or even both.

[Magus Magi]

Let them keep their levels (applies to Vangaurd too). It makes no sense for an upgrade to make your squad lvl1 again with less MS, HP and all that good stuff that comes with levels. Revert vengeance rounds to old range or reload speed or even both.

I completely agree (as the earlier pages of this thread have aptly established). I also liked your idea about putting VG in tier 2 and their powerfist in tier 3. Figured I might as well bring it up.

[Ace of Swords]

a particular citation system with which you are familiar? (Just curious.)

Nah not really, just citing the maps with the most annoying buildings, and consider the dragonfire come for free they are very very good on these maps.

[Forestradio]

I've always found that if you are fighting regular infantry in cover, use hellfire.

The DoT is not impacted by cover, allows you to bleed models on retreat, and is useful for a nice trololol when your opponents infantry in cover lose to sternguards out in the open.

[Kithrixx]

I really do not like that they outright replace a Tac squad, possibly one that has levels and previous upgrades. I feel that they, along with Vanguards, would be better off as Tier 2 units to be purchased rather than upgrades that replace the base squads.

[Magus Magi]

I've always found that if you are fighting regular infantry in cover, use hellfire.

The DoT is not impacted by cover, allows you to bleed models on retreat, and is useful for a nice trololol when your opponents infantry in cover lose to sternguards out in the open.

So...another situation where Hellfire rounds are the answer and Dragonfire rounds go unused.

Really awesome ammo switching mechanic that should reward constant micro vs. one round type that is so downright superior to the other three that you can, and probably should, leave it on 95% of the time.

This is exactly why I suggested splitting the power currently existent in Hellfire rounds between Dragonfire and Hellfire. If Dragonfire did the kind of damage to light infantry that Hellfire does, and Hellfire was limited to heroes, you'd be pushing that awesome ammo switching mechanic that ONLY SG bring to this mod.

Plus, the switch would be a nerf (no more DoT effect for light infantry) that would allow for interesting changes to Kraken and Vengeance rounds (I suggested a range increase on both (Vengeance = Normal range) (Kraken = long range)) without overpowering the unit. Hellfire rounds perform very well against certain armies right now (orks, elder, etc) and removing the DoT effect on retreat for light infantry would help SG counterplay while still allowing them to keep their in-combat power.

Why not strive to make Sternguard more unique while rewarding diligent micro and use of their round switching capabilities?

...

Or just go with what Riku said because he's about 10,000 times better than I am at this game and has a better idea of what changes would improve the mod.

[Magus Magi]

I really do not like that they outright replace a Tac squad, possibly one that has levels and previous upgrades. I feel that they, along with Vanguards, would be better off as Tier 2 units to be purchased rather than upgrades that replace the base squads.

I sympathize with your complaints regarding loss of a perfectly good Tac squad (particularly when levels and missile launchers are involved).

[Kvek]

I really do not like that they outright replace a Tac squad, possibly one that has levels and previous upgrades. I feel that they, along with Vanguards, would be better off as Tier 2 units to be purchased rather than upgrades that replace the base squads.

I sympathize with your complaints regarding loss of a perfectly good Tac squad (particularly when levels and missile launchers are involved).

lol, would you buy a vanguard asm in t3 for something like 600/90 power ?
Or sternguard for 625 and 55 power in t2 ? and then you would also have upkeep, and popcap.

why would you buy missile launcher, and then switch to sternguard ?

[Sub_Zero]

I like your idea, Magus Magi.

Dragon fire bolts against light infantry with aoe damage (since it is a replacement of the flamer)
Hell fire bolts against single entities (commanders and subcommanders)
Kraken bolts against heavy infantry and have increased range
Vengeance rounds against vehicles and have normal range

And now we have a really good and versatile squad.

I had read some ideas about tactical marines' upgrades when I was not registered here and I liked the idea that had said about price cuts in half when you decide to repurchase an upgrade.

[Vapor]

I like your idea, Magus Magi.

Dragon fire bolts against light infantry with aoe damage (since it is a replacement of the flamer)
Hell fire bolts against single entities (commanders and subcommanders)
Kraken bolts against heavy infantry and have increased range
Vengeance rounds against vehicles and have normal range

And now we have a really good and versatile squad.

I had read some ideas about tactical marines' upgrades when I was not registered here and I liked the idea that had said about price cuts in half when you decide to repurchase an upgrade.

Most of the SG ideas seem reasonable. However, halving the tac repurchase costs is way too much. I mean it's a big perk to have the ability to swap weapons at all, can you imagine tacs being able to swap to the flamer for 8 power? I don't think I would ever buy sternguard if I could swap between flamer and missile launcher for 28 power round-trip.

[Sub_Zero]

Well maybe we can agree on a 25% discount

And I am talking about plasma gun/missile launcher switching. You see a vehicle on the field then you get a missile launcher. The vehicle is gone and you get a plasma gun to fight heavy infantry. The game progresses and your opponent fields another vehicle and you buy a missile launcher with a discount. And so on.

You have no mobile AV squads like other races do (plague marines, tankbustaz, venom brood, melta gun stormtroopers, fire dragons). The only mobile AV squad is tactical marines. And with the missile launcher upgrade they become really bad against infantry.

[Magus Magi]

why would you buy missile launcher, and then switch to sternguard ?

Within the context of my response, that was my point.

[Magus Magi]

Well maybe we can agree on a 25% discount

And I am talking about plasma gun/missile launcher switching. You see a vehicle on the field then you get a missile launcher. The vehicle is gone and you get a plasma gun to fight heavy infantry. The game progresses and your opponent fields another vehicle and you buy a missile launcher with a discount. And so on.

You have no mobile AV squads like other races do (plague marines, tankbustaz, venom brood, melta gun stormtroopers, fire dragons). The only mobile AV squad is tactical marines. And with the missile launcher upgrade they become really bad against infantry.

I agree. Some sort of discount would encourage more dynamic play.

Also, since the plasma gun is so underused, maybe that could be one way of making it more viable, cut it's repurchase cost.

[Orkfaeller]

Plasmagun is underused?

I mean, I almost never use them, granted, but I feel other players do.

[Sub_Zero]

Plasmagun is underused?

For the reason I have explained before. Tactical marines are the only mobile AV unit that space marines have. And in t2 you will most likely see the missile launcher upgrade on them.

Also I don't understand why plasma gun costs 30 power. Guardsmen get plasma gun for 25 power and it is just a bit worse. Eldar have access to ridiculously powerful anti heavy infantry unit for 30 power. Chaos has access to ridiculously powerful upgrade for chaos marines and 30 power here too. And weak plasma gun (40 dps) for 30 power is not as strong as other anti heavy infantry upgrades for 30 power.

[Kvek]

Plasmagun is underused?

I mean, I almost never use them, granted, but I feel other players do.

it is underused.

[Ace of Swords]

It's underused but fine, now I don't remember the cost but if it's still 35 power it could use a reduction to 30 power.

[Sub_Zero]

Also I don't understand why plasma gun costs 30 power. Guardsmen get plasma gun for 25 power and it is just a bit worse. Eldar have access to ridiculously powerful anti heavy infantry unit for 30 power. Chaos has access to ridiculously powerful upgrade for chaos marines and 30 power here too. And weak plasma gun (40 dps) for 30 power is not as strong as other anti heavy infantry upgrades for 30 power.

Why should it be 30 power?

And I would love to see plasma gun shooting faster. Same dps just less damage per hit and higher rate of fire. That is another factor why I don't like the plasma gun. If kraken bolts affect the plasma gun then this fix will make plasma gun better. Since it would be able to land more shots while the ability is active.

[saltychipmunk]

I use them , but that is only because it allows me to lose a model of the tac without me really caring. 10 pop plasma tac isnt all that bad.

but i do agree for what it does , it is kind of low damage. better than the psy cannon on strikes though

cost red would be appreciated or a damage buff ,either or .. but not both

[Nurland]

Imo the reason why Tact Plasma Gun and other upgrades are the way it they are (cost/performance) is that it is not a permanent upgrade. Also losing models does not result in ~25%/33% drop in the dps since the PG model does more damage to HI than the rest of the squad combined (this is a very significant advantage over some other squads). Tacs are a flexible unit that can get an upgrade for pretty much every scenario, hence the upgrades are a bit weaker than upgrades that lock the squad into a certain role.

Imo the high burst damage is more of a plus side for the PG since (at least this is how i feel) it makes them better at sniping those expensive HI models.

That would be my take on the matter.

[Torpid]

Burst damage is always superior to constant damage. The dps is statistically the same, but you bleed models faster, deal more damage to suppression teams instantly and it makes kiting more successful as you get your full magazine's worth of damage off in a few seconds, then you can reload while kiting.

[Sub_Zero]

And I think otherwise just because I don't allow my tactical marines to stay on the field long enough to lose a model. And that is why I would like to see a higher rate of fire. I don't wanna see a lone member shooting his plasma gun... I can afford to keep my shoota boyz on the field because they have 6 models and 3 of them do THE REAL DAMAGE. And if you keep tactical marines on the field you risk to lose a model or even a sergeant which is a huge blow (sergeants tend to die quite often).

it makes them better at sniping those expensive HI models.

I don't feel like that. In fact they rarely snipe models. They can deal that significant damage with one shot to a model that has almost no health. Shot wasted... I could explain it better but I have a headache.

[Nurland]

I don't feel like that. In fact they rarely snipe models. They can deal that significant damage with one shot to a model that has almost no health. Shot wasted... I could explain it better but I have a headache.

I base my post on my 1,5k hours of playing this game and imo Plasma Tacs are pretty decent at picking off models from other HI squads. And this is due to them always focusing at least 57% of their dps in one model and that damage comes in high damage bursts. So basically they are good at taking out models for the same reason snipers are, high burst damage focused on single model.

And I rather waste 50 or even 90 dmg than let an enemy model survive with 10hp because he backs out of range, retreats or gets a heal off.

I am not encouraging people to lose models on their Tact squad but in a close game that is pretty much inevitable and when it happens it just hurts Tacts with weapon upgrades less dps wise than some other squads.

[Sub_Zero]

So basically they are good at taking out models for the same reason snipers are, high burst damage focused on single model.

I am not sure that a model with the plasma gun doesn't switch targets (models). Supression teams sometimes can tank 2 shots from snipers without losing a model. That is the provement that a model with the sniper rifle changes targets.

OK, we have different positions. But I think both of them have a right to exist.

P.S. I base my posts on 1000+ hours of game experience and space marines is my main race