Fc terminator and other stuff

[M4573R_CH13f]

Hey guys,

I've been wondering for a while, what the point of the FC-Terminator-Lighning claws in their current state is. Although they got a price reduction and you see them more often, I've never seen a single game where they did a better job than a different weapon upgrade of him or even the standart-version.
What you do, is replace 85dps heavy melee and 34 dps piercing ranged with 70 dps power melee with a 12 dps splash. And (I actually don't know exactly how much the other upgrades are) you miss your opportunity to upgrade to a 60 dps ranged weapon or a massive flamer with one of the most killy no-nuke abilities in the game.

some facts:
-heavy or superheavy- inf.-squads are almost always low model, 3-5 e.g. (he doesn't really wanna fight full nobs though, so practically maximum of 4) --> splash wont hit more than 2 models in general in hi-fights.
-his dps to infantry gets lower; from my point of view the standart-infantry squads that really wanna engange him never get much damage from the power melee-splash. also, this is the target group, where he can actaully effectively use his ranged weapons
-same deal: commanders. he is just weaker against them with his claws.
-fc-teleporter with his fist is a wonderful way to put pressure/chase/finish snared vehicles, especially tanks. this potenzial is completely lost with claws. and you cant change it back, a scary av-source just banned. Everyone here knows how good it is to have such a anti-everything unit on the field
-splash as a blob counter (that's the only reason you would really want it by now) is not a valid argument. may i remind you of that flamer? port in, put it on you. which melee blob wants to kill you? demonstration? watch maestro cretellas last cast on angel gate. max power locking and scaring two players of nids and ig in base for minutes because of his counter to manticores, ranged blobs with his flamer and tyranid melee. also taking down a doom in retreat. claws would not have made this.
and in 1v1s, the flamer (combined with the fcs 2,5k hp, immunity to knockback and suppression) wipes out full farms without you being able to do much.

result: the claws dont change the way you use him much, apart from disabling a ranged option. so, it's all about changed effectiveness:
-vs. heavy/superheavy: yes, there are many types of those, exspecially lategame. but often not too blobby. dmg in melee averagilly up from 85 dps too (70+1-2xsplash)*1.3 --> fighting power ~+30% dmg
-vs infantry: feel like they will mostly kite from him, so less splash. you also loose ranged weapons and 15 dps --> fighting power ~-10%
-vs vehicles: damage reduced to 1/4. should say all. exspecially sad since he's souch an awesome way to put pressure up and needs ages to force off...
-vs commis: ~-10%dmg

even the comparison to the standart one is not going well... not to mention that awesome flamer.
think about it: you give assault termies claws to get their dps from 50 heavy to the same 70 like the fcs. fc gets the same upgrade, only that his vanilla form already has 85 heavy, not 50, and a ranged weapon. it's ridicolous. claws are awesome weapons and in this case, they need more love in the form of a straight up dps increase. like atm you want a dangerous weapon for loosing all that versatillity.
comparing it to the atm-upgrade, you should get a dmg-increase of 40% meaning claws with 120 dps. that's a bit over the top, but 90-100 dps like the chaos lords is really okay i think. and get that splash dmg up to give this weapon a deffinite target group! at the moment, it just has'nt got one.

Greets, CH13F

[MaxPower]

Im ofc biased towards the SM and especially the FC, so yeah I second your thoughts M4573R_CH13f and think that he either should get a damage buff (higher dps + better splash) or that the should get an ability something higher damage output for like 10 - 15 seconds should cost 50 energy or something and should buff his damage output + better splash, either of the seem kinda reasonable.

[Tex]

or maybe just put the claws at 78-80dps + splash, and allow him to fire his ranged weapon while the claws are equipped? Let's keep in mind that the FC clawminator CAN RETREAT AND HAS 2500 HP.

Having the same DPS as the chaos lord's lit claws would be absolutely absurd on the FC, especially because he can teleport and he does splash with them (and you know... he has 2500 freaking HP).

[Dark Riku]

No need to get all snappy and sarcastic.
Let's keep in mind it's T3, isn't cheap at all and replaces all the wargear he had before.
Not to mention a fully kitted out FC will do a better job then the terminator FC.

[Nurland]

100dps + splash LC would be quite ridiculous on the Termie FC imo. I mean 2,5k hp. But the LC are bit underwhelming atm so I suppose they could use a buff. I wouldn't give them better stats than BC Halberd though so something like 10dps increase might be reasonable.

[MaxPower]

100dps + splash LC would be quite ridiculous on the Termie FC imo. I mean 2,5k hp. But the LC are bit underwhelming atm so I suppose they could use a buff. I wouldn't give them better stats than BC Halberd though so something like 10dps increase might be reasonable.

Well, I'd say that the problem with LC is that they don't do enough damage for the askin price, most of the time its just wiser to either get flamer (for some good bbq) or the assault cannon. With those to wargears u still have the 85? dps heavy melee? power fist (to force off some vehicles) and u get some awesome ranged firepower. But with the claws u lose the AV capabilities and u might also wanna keep in mind that the FC with terminator armor is slow as shit.

So yeah i would give the LCs either one of my proposed buffs (either same stats as now but with an ability that increases damage for 10 - 15 seconds + increased splash damage while the ability is triggered) or just more dps to without any ability.

[Asmon]

Lulz at this thread. Should I (again) remind everyone that the special of Terminator FC tracks the hell out of his target's ass? No buff shall happen.

[Bahamut]

Lulz at this thread. Should I (again) remind everyone that the special of Terminator FC tracks the hell out of his target's ass? No buff shall happen.

power fist special or claws special?. I saw chaos termies with claws doing ability knock back with their specials. I'm not too sure if both the FC claws or AT termies claws got that too

[Forestradio]

Lulz at this thread. Should I (again) remind everyone that the special of Terminator FC tracks the hell out of his target's ass? No buff shall happen.

power fist special or claws special?. I saw chaos termies with claws doing ability knock back with their specials. I'm not too sure if both the FC claws or AT termies claws got that too

All SM terminator melee weapon special attacks track their target and do ability knockback to my knowledge.

Powerfist, hammer and stormshield, and claws all will hit their target no matter what.

Using the FC with Battlecry/claws up means that he turns into a one man wrecking monster.

Giving him some kind of hammerhand ability (more melee damage and splash) would probably require an increase in the claws' cost again, which I really don't want.

[Sub_Zero]

2500 hp of heavy armor. It is, by the way, worse armor type than standard commander armor type in late stages of the game. So FC is not so tanky.

I would suggest to revert the cost of the lightning claws (70 power) and make them the best anti-infantry weapon in the game (100 dps + splash). Because it is a T3 upgrade and to get this weapon you have to pay 270 requisition and 170 energy. Quite a healthy investment, isn't it?

Terminator FC has speed 4 (as slow as Bro Cap) and can teleport and let's imagine he does 100 dps power_melee + splash. He can become like this only in T3 and for 270 req and 170 power. And he will not become better because having this armor he is not able to level anymore. While Bro Cap walks with speed 4, can purchase the teleporter pack and does 87 dps + splash. And you are able to upgrade your Bro Cap like that in T2 and for 270 req and 70 power. Level 5 Bro cap does 100 dps with the halberd. And by the time he reaches T3 he will be at least level 5 with no doubts. In T3 you can make him even more tanky with the Holy armor of Titan. 470 req and 110 power.

And what do we have right now?
Level 5 (he will be level 5 by the time T3 let's imagine) Brother Captain does 100 dps power_melee + splash and his health pool is 1616 (commander armor), he can teleport and become immortal, he can use "We are the Hammer". The loadout is the Nemesis Force Halberd, the teleporter pack and the Holy armor of Titan. Total cost is 470 req and 110 power. He can level furthermore, it should be taken into consideration.
Force commander in the Terminator armor does 70 power melee + splash and his health pool is 2500 (heavy armor), he can teleport, he can use his battle cry. The loadout is the Terminator Armor and the lightning claws. Total cost is 270 req and 140 power. Really see no point to give up 85 heavy_melee dps close combat weapon and 33 dps ranged weapon for 70 power_melee + splash close combat weapon.

All SM terminator melee weapon special attacks track their target and do ability knockback to my knowledge.

I have never seen special attacks from assault terminators doing ability knockback. And I often see special attacks from chaos terminators with lightning claws doing ability knockback

[M4573R_CH13f]

Absolutely agree with you, Sub. I think 90 dps, but a healthy increase in splash, like 18 from 12 dps, to make him a blob counte as he should be would be nice.

Asmond, his special with those claws is good, but still not more disruptive than his standard-weapon-attacks apart from the hammer, only that it does ability knockback. But honestly, when does he ever fight terminator variants? That and some commanders is the only use of that. And you don't really see battlecry against those, because you just want to put out as much dps as possible and run. and the roar dps of those specials is weak. that isn't a valid argument for loosing such versatility.

and everyone remember: Yeah he is tanky and telepotive. But his vanilla form is as well, and that's exactly the point. With splash, I agree, he should not be more dpssy than say, the chaos lord. But rememberr, this guy can level + harness of rage n stuff, going up to almost 150 dps at lvl 10. So there are, as Sub explained, sources of much more dps than that.

[Raffa]

I don't even know how to respond to this...

his special with those claws is good, but still not more disruptive than his standard-weapon-attacks apart from the hammer, only that it does ability knockback

..or this...

I would suggest to revert the cost of the lightning claws (70 power) and make them the best anti-infantry weapon in the game (100 dps + splash)

In my most humblest of opinions, these are some things you should bear in mind:
1. He does heavy weapon knockback, not ability knockback with the specials
2. Doing heavy knockback is kind of a fucking big deal
3. 100 power_melee dps + splash on a teleporting hero that can retreat is broken on every conceivable level
4. Stop seeing everything from SM-only perspective

So yeah

Lulz at this thread

[Orkfaeller]

Aye, Chaos Terminators with Claws juggle Terminators around, but I dont think it works the other way around.

[Torpid]

It works both ways.

And yeah, this thread is more space marine lulz.

I think personally we need more GK lulz, SM are pretty solid atm.

[Sub_Zero]

1. He does heavy weapon knockback, not ability knockback with the specials

There are 2 kinds of knockback in this game. Ability knockback (plasma devastators, dread's special attack etc) and weapon knockback (special attacks of banshees, special attacks of khorne marines etc). http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Dawn_of_War_II_combat

2. Doing heavy knockback is kind of a fucking big deal

His special attack is not that great. Doesn't cause too much damage and doesn't disrupt a lot of stuff. However his special attack allows him to disrupt moving targets which is nice but is not THAT GREAT. I am still not sure that his special attack allows to do ability knockback.

3. 100 power_melee dps + splash on a teleporting hero that can retreat is broken on every conceivable level

Well, Bro Cap becomes OP at level 5...

4. Stop seeing everything from SM-only perspective

No, I don't

[Forestradio]

@Sub_Zero

In elite there are sorta three kinds of knockback.

Go to the change log and read it about walker special attacks.

They still knock down heavy units (HT, CL, termies) but not retreating units.

So there is

1. weapon knockback: not knockdown retreat or heavy

2. "heavy" knockback: knockdown heavy but not retreat

3. ability knockback: knockdown both.

Please. The Bro-Cap does not have 2500 health. Not even with WaTH. And he attacks a lot slower and thus deals a lot less splash damage.............

As for terminator special attacks not being that great, special attacks that track units are automatically better than ones that don't. That's one of the reasons why the FC thunder hammer is so good: tracking 360 special FTW.

[Sub_Zero]

Oh yeah I should have anticipated it. Warboss or Hive tyrant can't knockdown retreating units anymore but knockdown big units.

And Bro Cap has 1616 health (level 5). I understand that is not 2500. But FC has heavy armor. And I think it is a disadvantage because he is going to suffer more from plasma, power melee attacks, inferno damage etc.

[Indrid]

FC Termie sucks with claws. It doesn't synergise well with his basic ability of Battlecry. You don't get claws to disrupt things, you get it to do constant DPS and shred stuff. It's not worth the investment as anti-melee IMO when he can get the Hammer for awesome disruption alongside other wargear a tier earlier.

[M4573R_CH13f]

Raffa: Why is that such a big deal? he can only knock down termies and a few commanders, thats it. i very ve4ry rarely see him ever fight against such things.
And in general, why do i not see many people using this battle cry of the fc-termie in combat at all?
so, there we are: his special is good with claws. but in combat he is just way less dangerous, exspecially against singel entities at which he can teleport, than in his vanilla form.

may i again remind you of the upgrade of assault terminators? their claws incease their dmg from 50 heavy to 70 power. in many cases, this seems like a good change. why would anyone consider an "upgrade" of 85 heavy to 70 power, loosing ranged damage and the opportunity of other weapons as a good one?
i see why it isn't the same, because the fc-temie is a strong fast-strike unit, port in and retreat, without being knocked down or suppressed. So his damage should not be hugely much. But it is the same deal with the vanilla form. You use it as this fast-strike against: Tanks/support vehicles on rear armour and on entities like setup teams and zoanthrops. The 85 heavy melee fist already is hugely strong against those, you can't really speak of the claws as overpowered for teleporting at, say, 90 dps.
I would like you to try and explain to me, why the claws are at the same dps like the termies', comparing both their standard forms.

[M4573R_CH13f]

Since i've called this topic "... and other stuff" and the fc -debate seems at an end (?):

why does the bro-caps force sword only do 40 dps? i know, it has got a buff already, but comparing it to the power swords of force commander and commissar lord, which both feature a aoe buff as well... (i agree, it is not the similar one, i also don't want to be so brave and compare them, causing a hell of alot of hate. but both the other ones are really strong as well, giving a melee counter and stacking up damage buffs - although the commissars buff is lower at 10 instead of 15%, he gets a speed increase and a shield, so he often gets many attacks in.)
i feel like the melee counter is something brocap players really miss in t1. i don't say it should get it. but it aoe-ability also does not stack. i don't really see which fact of him renders the sword at 50 dps too strong, again, comparing to fc and commissar.
since he starts off with a power-weapon, i think players also need a healthier dps-increase than 10 dps to upgrade it because of combat features, not only the buff.

[Kvek]

because it also improves his we are the hammer. Inspire allied infantry within 25 radius, increasing speed by 1.5 and decreasing received damage by 25% for 15 seconds, and that's pretty huge, the damage buff coming with the sword is just a little bonus.

[M4573R_CH13f]

I know. The Sword buff is up from 10 to 15%, doing specials and stacking. and the commi also does specials, 10% inspiration per special and runs 2 faster. this stacks like hell. and how often have you thought, playing the brocap: How i miss a special-on-demand right now. at least i have.
i think the brocap need some t1-love. this could do it. as i said, to compare the buffs would not be too senseful, but i can't say, which one i like best. so, both weapons should propably equal out damagewise.

[Torpid]

BC is a big tanky hero though who with only 20 investment does very reasonable dps and is extremely hard to kill. Speed buff and being unsuppressable is very strong...

And honestly that improved WATH is better than improved BC, it synergises so well with the GK army.

[Flash]

It's really useful with termies if you don't have the staff already

[Commissar Vocaloid]

To be honest, one thing I've noticed and think is a bit ridiculous would be his ability to retreat in Terminator armor. It's literally a viable strategy to have him teleport into a vehicle and force melee on it while still being able to tank a lot of damage with that huge pool of health. I've had this done to me several times as IG where the FC will jump a baneblade and even with a commander, 2x plasma guardsmen and the support of an additional squad or two, it still takes some time to force him off, and only with him retreating safely in the end. This also doesn't consider the fact that the FC's supporting forces also have free reign to close in as you're busy trying to peel him off.

You can force melee with regular terminators, but because of the gap they have to close initially, it's quite easy to make them think twice before jumping in as they have no viable escape unless they have their teleport off Cooldown, but with an FC, he's got a "get out of jail for free" card.

Sure, he loses a lot of buffs and perhaps he's limited in use in comparison to the versatility that is given up when going from power armor to terminator, but in his more streamlined state, he still has weird quirks and can be surprisingly effective in the weirdest of ways. Yet, at the same time, he can also be very ineffective depending on your loadout and the enemy composition, so it's really hard to say whether or not he's good or not.

Still, I think he should be changed considerably - less hp and/or remove the retreat, give him more supportive abilities. Make him play more or less, like a commander in terminator armor (a la BC or CL) but don't over indulge him in vast amounts of health while donning heavy infantry armor (instead of commander armor). I honestly don't know what roll he fits right now, as he's just a brick wall that can take a punch and sometimes, dish it out himself.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

he also reinforces at 250/0 rather than 150/50 or whatever.

[Faultron]

there is no problem at all with retreat or with 2500hp.this 2500 hp is less tanky when u have a regular tanky hero with hero armor+ fully upgraded+lvled up.he loose moving speed also.

In Retail i bought only once in my life the terminator upgrade in a serious match and i quickly realised it is not viable.
terminator upgrade gives you a weaker armyforce for T3.not to mention u waste all your pre investment resources.and if u go naked until tier 3 u pretty much loose:)
dunno how it works in Elite cos i didn not played much SM termi FC lulz! but i guess its still the same.


some ideas
-after a finished termi upgrade u got back the pre wargear resources(if not 100% then 75 or 50% depends)
-changing/tweaking or giving other weapon to him
-new ability or improved ability

the terminator investment is not only the worst cost/performance but negative lol

Should be reworked somehow in my opinion

[Kvek]

In Retail i bought only once in my life the terminator upgrade in a serious match and i quickly realised it is not viable.
terminator upgrade gives you a weaker armyforce for T3.not to mention u waste all your pre investment resources.and if u go naked until tier 3 u pretty much loose:)
dunno how it works in Elite cos i didn not played much SM termi FC lulz! but i guess its still the same.

wait, in retail only once ? have you ever tried to use FC flamer, it's basically a insta-gen bash wargear, and also if your opponent is retreating and you are near his base just tp and cleansing flame it and whole army wipe :p

[Dark Riku]

some ideas
-after a finished termi upgrade u got back the pre wargear resources(if not 100% then 75 or 50% depends)
-changing/tweaking or giving other weapon to him
-new ability or improved ability

the terminator investment is not only the worst cost/performance but negative lol

Should be reworked somehow in my opinion

Giving back recources spend is a bad idea. You could go plus from upgrading :p
Some other changes would be preferable if any are needed.

[Nurland]

Yeah in Retail it was pretty much viable to rush for Termie FC with Flamer because it basically denies your opponent for ever having a power farm for over 1 minute. Termie FC with Flamer wipes a gen farm in roughly 3 seconds and since he has 2,5k health... Well he probably is not going to die. And even if he dies. 425 req and the loss of power income is probably worth the 250 req of rebuying him.

Terminator Armor for FC is a niche upgrade. It suits certain situations but it is not a no-brainer nor should it be. For example if your FC is not leveled up and/or you have not invested much to him by the time you get to T3, TA is a perfectly viable option. Not the fan of giving TA giving back resources from already purchased wargear.

I have always failed to see how +1700 hp, +22 dps piercing, going up from 39 dps melee to 85 dps heavy melee and gaining a teleport is a bad upgrade. It might not be ideal for all situations but the TA has its uses.

Back to Lightning Claws: Maybe making their special attack do larger aoe to synergise better with Batthul Cry with 5-10 dps buff would be nice?