Last chance to voice your balance concerns for 2.2

[Caeltos]

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=363

Posted preview - It's not final

Things that are still on my radar and requires abit of "investigation" are the following (from what I can remember ontop of my head)

- Heart of Darkness rework

- Termagant Brood Leaders/Hormagaunt leader - Need to look into the Toxin
Sacs/Adrenal Glands effeciency on them

- Warp Throw minor tweak (Don't expect something too much)

- Snowball Evaluation (I do want to reduce some penalties, but it does have a broad implication on the game. I would like to run this on a test enviroment and keep it restricted, since it might make/break the game, and I'd rather NOT release that to the public)

So, feel free to chip in with your concerns on what might need looking into, and give some good reasoning for it. Give me like a real wall of text of pros & cons, and legitimate source of feedback. I'll completely disregard the "its op please nerf" simplicity post, because they're just annoying to read and offer no solution or origin of the issue at hand.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Erm,Weirdboy"s vormit stun duration is still 6 seconds long with that 8 seconds debuff.

Ard boyz & Use Your Choppaz
Their both 75/75.. , their Arguably Cheap to use for a Race that generates Red OT,Also the Painboy dps reduce it slightly

[ThongSong]

are GK purgation squads still only able to attack 1 squad even if multiple squads are blobbed up together?

[HandSome SoddiNg]

are GK purgation squads still only able to attack 1 squad even if multiple squads are blobbed up together?

Yes Tongs,only able to Suppress 1 Meele squad

[ThongSong]

are GK purgation squads still only able to attack 1 squad even if multiple squads are blobbed up together?

Yes Tongs,only able to Suppress 1 Meele squad

boo. hiss. boo.

[Forestradio]

Please buff mind blades global.

The paltry +10 melee skill increase it gives in comparison to UYC in pathetic. Not to mention that ork slugga/stormboy specials track enemies and GK unit specials don't.

Wouldn't mind a higher red cost than it currently is (75) if it gave something like +30 percent melee damage and +25 melee skill.

[Tex]

The global gives +20% to ranged and melee damage, AND it adds 10 melee skill for the duration, and you think this is paltry? Look at FTE. That global adds 25% melee and ranged with no melee skill bonus for the same red. Would you rather have that?

Mind blades is a well thought out global for GK, design wise, and I find that it works perfectly for turning the tables in certain battles. It is hugely powerful in situations where you can draw melee attention to your strike squad while they sit back, shoot, and then engage in melee, receiving both ends of the bonus from this global.

[SirSid]

I have not been posting about this lately cuz im still trying to test it 100 % but im thinking the pain boy is a bit to strong ATM. The damage he dose + the amount he heals is a bit hard to deal with.

He seems to be a tad to good at picking off importat dangrous models or commanders.Then his heal can be a tad to powerfull in some situations. Like with stormboys + hard boys + truck + pain boy heal . I know that's alot of stuff together but it is VERY easy to get out early and a massive amount to deal with , especialy if stormbys get the implant.


Iv not made a post about it since i can't see a easy way to fix it. a nurf to his heal might make him useless however a nurf to his damagre may make him have to little impact in t2 . So i don;t know what i would like to see.

Perhaps it;s that he scales to well. He is just as use full in t1 as he is in t3 since his heal scales so well with the larger ork units , especialy if he has leveled.


This is something i would like looked at by some 1 who knows it a bit better . the only obvious counter to him is supresion that i can tell and his mmost potent pairing is stormboys so supresion is useless.

[SirSid]

O and chatachan need to have thare damage sharing removed. The fact they don't bleed to sniper fire , or focous fire , or melee , or anything for that matter is a problem. Iv been bitching about it for mounths now it's time it gets looked at. Thare explosive is fucking insaley powerfull , at least make it visible when in a proky of 2 or someting so u don't need 3 detectors ( imposible for most races to do this ) to be abel to cap a point on the side.

As it stands now chatachans are still a no brainer must get unit for IG. lets them bleed and do something to the explosive, ether a huge nurf on it's damage or make it a tad some how abel to be spoted , even if still hard to spot.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

- PC Plague of Undeath rework.
In 1vs1 (the gamemode about which is supposed to be balanced ELITE) is useless, but more powerful in 2vs2 and 3vs3 against swarmy races.

Thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67
Caeltos last opinion: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67&start=20#p5490

Nurgle Workshipp
Doesn't scale as well as Khorne/Tzeentch workshipp. I suggest add +0.075 health regeneration per Tier and reach the original vanilla value in Tier 3
T1: 0.35
T2: 0.425
T3: 0.5

Plague Marines Heal-other-on-death ability
This passive ability have no reason to exist in ELITE, since the heal don't affect the own Plague Marine squad.

If isn't possible to make them health again with their own explosion (even in a nerfed version or through an upgrade) I suggest quit this passive ability and give something more useful to their role. For example, increase the DOT damage.

Chaos Space Marine Aspiring Champion
Since people doesn't like very much my Chaos Space Marine AC passive charge + Brutal Charge ideas I want to suggest make the AC a fourth squad member like Sternguard and Vanguard Veteran squads.
- Squad of 4 members instead of 3 + 1.
- AC can die (don't share damage with the rest of the squad)
- AC can be reinforced as any other regular CSM model.
- AC cost increased to 100/30 or something like that.
- No other changes.

[arnath]

I feel that the damage distribution mechanism for Catachan Devils is, for want of a better phrase, broken, and that if it hasn't already been considered (which I'm sure it has by Caeltos, etc.) then perhaps it should be.

One match recently casted by Indrid highlighted this fact (see 4.44, 8.07 and most importantly 19.17 of the below link). The problem with this mechanism is self-explanatory with regards to the lack of bleed and the effects that this has on the player's economy, and it fundamentally affronts the general damage distribution mechanism when compared with other unit composition in DoW Elite. If this mechanism wants to be kept in for Catachan Devils, some form of compromise must be reached (e.g. unit reinforcement price be increased, general damage of the unit decreased, or something of that nature).

This problem is further exacerbated when you consider the strength and utility of Catachan Devils. I stand to be corrected, but I have seen both in Elite many instances where Catachan's have stood toe-to-toe and often defeated units which are considered to be a) more dedicated melee units (e.g. shees, warrior brood) or b) more expensive units in terms of up-keep and initial cost (ASM, for example) without support. It feels fundamentally flawed that a unit with the utility of the Catachan be so strong. Take the shotgun blast - as far as I can remember, Scouts are the only other unit that has such an ability. This seems like a fair trade off for Scouts, who have a low model count, low hp and fairly average dps. Catachan on the other hand have a much higher model count, hp and dps, and also have Old Reliable. I would be very interested to see, but in my estimation a fully upgraded unit of Shees/Sluggers wouldn't even reach Catachan in such a state that they could legitimately be a threat to the unit.

Another gripe I have is with regards to the warp rift/warp throw; tbh, I don't have a problem with either of them. I think they are both equally annoying (with warp throw requiring more skill to pull off when combining with grenades, autauch drop, etc.) but not OP (although potentially a little under-priced; particularly the warp rift). However, I feel that if you are going to address/modify one, then the other should also be addressed. I'm a bit sick of people on the forum complaining about the warp throw, which as i stated above oft requires significantly more skill than utilising the warp rift, yet not having a problem with the latter.

I'd like to apologise for not having any stats to back up my assertions regarding strength of Catachans - I don't know where to locate such information. Would also like to thank everyone who makes Elite possible. Great job.

Link for Indrid's replay. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39otABFfsiU

[Lag]

I feel that the damage distribution mechanism for Catachan Devils is, for want of a better phrase, broken, and that if it hasn't already been considered (which I'm sure it has by Caeltos, etc.) then perhaps it should be.

One match recently casted by Indrid highlighted this fact (see 4.44, 8.07 and most importantly 19.17 of the below link). The problem with this mechanism is self-explanatory with regards to the lack of bleed and the effects that this has on the player's economy, and it fundamentally affronts the general damage distribution mechanism when compared with other unit composition in DoW Elite. If this mechanism wants to be kept in for Catachan Devils, some form of compromise must be reached (e.g. unit reinforcement price be increased, general damage of the unit decreased, or something of that nature).

The GM is the most "bleeding" unit in the game. Yes they are cheap to reinforce, but when you have to do it as much as you do - it adds up. Thus, the Sentinel which doesn't bleed is introduced, but gets shittier as the game progresses, and the Catas as well which can bleed you power, and have a very short range so can be focused easily.
Catas are fine.

[Sub_Zero]

Catas are fine.

They preserve all their dps and even if they are low at health they still fight to the full extent. Everybody but IG players (including you) think that cats' bleed system is broken.

The GM is the most "bleeding" unit in the game.

19 req per 3 models in t2 and 19 req per 2 models in t1. In t1 they have the immortal leader. In t2 they have 2 immortal leaders. They share damage, they are cheap as dirt. Even if a squad remains last 2 models (leaders) they will be able to back to full strenght for pathetic 57 req. And this will happen if you will overextend them badly.

[Torpid]

Catachans are 100% fine, to say otherwise is indicative of you not playing IG in 1v1 at any serious level. @ Sid, catachans are MOST CERTAINLY NOT a no-brainer for IG. They're a very very reluctant purchase for me because they scale horribly and are terribly against multiple forms of control, forcing you to be stuck in a heavy t1 (spotters+cats) that scales poorly (no av, can't fight t2 melee, catachans suck in t2). In the IG vs Eldar MU you may as well suicide your catachans come t2 because they do very little other than bleed and be a drain on your upkeep.

To reiterate the way catachans bleed is intentional design to make the unit viable, without it they would become 2.1 purgation squads.



I like Nikhels suggested changes, the nurgle worship scaling is an excellent idea, as is a plague of undeath rework, more DoT on plague marines will probably make them a bit strong for their power price though, and although the AC change proposed would be fine for default csm, it would make marked csm op.


@ Tex FTE is 50 red, not 75.

Stop hating on ork globals y'all, for orks to be used at maximum efficiency they need to be using their red in every single engagement with waaagghhs, AWD and other abilities. The fact that UYC costs 75 red is quite a lot for orks, they value red higher than all other races do, as the demand for it is far greater than the puny supply they get from their base.



A personal request - could you please nerf the DOM's life drain thing (always forget its name), when combined with paraxysm it means it's impossible to kill the DOM with anything other than snipers/nobs/asm. You could theoretically also teleport termies in, but then you get cripplied+paroxysm with no teleport. The "kill it with vehicles" thing doesn't really work either since zoans and venoms scale well from t2 and can deal with tanks nicely, not to mention all the t3 AV the gaunts get - assuming he has no fexes too, which isn't impossible as the DOM is cheap.

[Sub_Zero]

No need to tell me how good or how bad I am. I just see the problem of this unit. And the problem should be solved.

[Lag]

Catas are fine.

They preserve all their dps and even if they are low at health they still fight to the full extent. Everybody but IG players (including you) think that cats' bleed system is broken.

You mean like SM and CSM?

The GM is the most "bleeding" unit in the game.

19 req per 3 models in t2 and 19 req per 2 models in t1. In t1 they have the immortal leader. In t2 they have 2 immortal leaders. They share damage, they are cheap as dirt. Even if a squad remains last 2 models (leaders) they will be able to back to full strenght for pathetic 57 req. And this will happen if you will overextend them badly.

Their Sarge becomes mortal once you have the Commie in the squad. Also, compare that to how easily they die, and include how hard it is to get them all to cover, how hard it is to kite (one o the slowest t1 units) and how little damage they actually do. Not to mention how easily they get tied up and do almost zero damage.

Now take all of this and add the factor of no ability to wipe squads in t1 into the mix and the fact that they need t2 to actually do some damage. You really want to increase the Cata bleed and further push their transition to t2 away? You can't just look at one unit and go OMG TOO OP, and "everyone" is not a word that describes a few loud people.

[PhatE]

I'd say that the DoM leech essence is pretty good. How exactly do you kill this thing? You can't really melee him since he usually has enough energy to use leech essence. As well as being able to sit behind the army and do damage there.

If leech essence can be toned down a little without making it a reluctant purchase would be the most ideal. But in doing this I'd want it to get a health buff (big or small) as well as making it somewhat similar to the weirdboy. This means that it can only use certain abilities after there has been a cooldown on certain castable abilities.

If I were to follow the caeltos template for posting for this in thread, a cealtemplate if you will...har har har

I'd say pros are:

It allows for armies to come much closer to actually landing hits in whilst still retaining some form of strength and not just being forced off each engagement.

Still allows for certain combinations of abilities.

Cons:

(More obvious) If leech essence is nerfed too much then we can see a lot of dead DoM's. He isn't exactly cheap for late game purchases. But at the same time as this I find that he can move around whilst using this so the basic attack isn't really needed.

So here's my other idea for him;

Reduce the cost but give him purchasable upgrades to unlock these abilities starting with cataclysm I think it's called? (Whatever the castable knock back is called) and drain energy. Having to buy these has two side effects (it's late so there are probably a few more that I'm not considering)

1 - Nids have to spend more on the upgrades if they want the whole show but that means that they are going to have way less for leaders

2 - Doesn't allow you to be overwhelmed by all the bugs at least not at first

This however leads to Tyranid players being able save better for Carnifexes so not sure how well that would go down with X amount of people.

That's just an idea.

On a separate note shotgun blasts are getting a little ridiculous, they can knock back entire armies even if they are split. If it can be reduced to just 1 squad then that would be nice. Or do far less courage damage to the squad that's much further away so they aren't suppressed for just as long

3 GK storm troopers with grenade launchers. This is downright silly! Attack ground with the speed at which the grenades travel along side the barrage does gratuitous amounts of damage.

My thinking was reduce the speed at which the barrage grenades travel and you might actually be able to dodge them. It's super effective against Tyranids and probably IG. Near instant squad wipes.

[Orkfaeller]

On a separate note shotgun blasts are getting a little ridiculous, they can knock back entire armies even if they are split. If it can be reduced to just 1 squad then that would be nice. Or do far less courage damage to the squad that's much further away so they aren't suppressed for just as long
.

I thought it only supresses the targeted squad and "only" knocks down other models that get too close.

Or do you mean the supressing effect should be reduced when SHotgunblast gets used on max range?

[Kvek]

On a separate note shotgun blasts are getting a little ridiculous, they can knock back entire armies even if they are split. If it can be reduced to just 1 squad then that would be nice. Or do far less courage damage to the squad that's much further away so they aren't suppressed for just as long
.

I thought it only supresses the targeted squad and "only" knocks down other models that get too close.

Or do you mean the supressing effect should be reduced when SHotgunblast gets used on max range?

Just ignore that post, it's obvious he blobs up too much and then QQs about shotgun blast knocking down entire army.

[Sub_Zero]

You mean like SM and CSM?

Units of SM and CSM have low count of models. It means that each model has a lot of health. SM and CSM units have no hp sharing whatsoever (scouts with a sergeant don't count). Your point is not valid.

Their Sarge becomes mortal once you have the Commie in the squad.

This is wrong. One of them die if there are no standart models in a squad.

how little damage they actually do

I think they put enough damage against light infantry in t1. Yes, have some problems against heavy infantry but in t2 they get their vengeance.

You really want to increase the Cata bleed and further push their transition to t2 away?

They are supposed to be an anti-melee unit and they have lots of utility abilities. Keep them behind the lines. Annoy your opponent with barrages, throw smoke bombs on your units, rape melee squads (shotgun blast, ranged fire, melee punches), set up explosives, force melee in advantageous situations. How are they supposed to bleed if you use them carefully and as they should be used? I personally think they are a great unit for every matchup. But against ranged blob spotters + supression will help better though. And I do see IG players go for them every match.

[Raffa]

I think I'm gonna be in the minority asking for a Tyranid change that isn't a flat-out nerf but there's one outstanding issue.

Corrosive Claws need changing.

Pros: 40 power not worth it IMO. Yes you are getting 30% extra damage (for most, not all, attacks - it tends to happen less often than you think) but are they really worth either transitioning to from a T1 weapon, or forgoing a T1 weapon altogether and waiting for Claws? No they are not. Yes they do damn well help with bleeding, but 40 power makes them pretty well out of the question when you have the Tendrils option (which is very often better) for 10 less req and 15 less power, and a tier earlier.

Cons: They do mean you kill medium-high hp models a hit or two earlier than usual, but they only affect the one model and the lictor must have already hit it within the last 5 seconds. It's another stackable buff for flesh hook.

Conclusion: Not much time atm wish I could of gone into more detail. Please either:
1. Buff Default dps they do
2. Increase the effect of Claws
3. Move to Tier 1 (would the implications of this be too drastic?)

[Lag]

Edit: fuck it. Why I let myself get pulled into these discussions is beyond me.

[Torpid]

Lol, I'm not going to bother either, y'all know fine well what my opinion on catachan bleed is and it's very evident if you play IG so there's not really much point elaborating on it.

[Sub_Zero]

So apparently getting away with 3 models of Tacs or ASM at 1/10th of health is weaker than having a 100% bleed of 5 power costing models in the same situation.

You exaggerate about space marines being able to preserve all models with almost no health. And catachans are pretty cheap to reinforce now (knowing the fact that they rarely bleed models). It is 29/3 to reinforce a model.

Not to mention that ASM and Tacs will both scale better than the short range, slow paced Catas.

ASM disrupt stuff and chop stuff. Oriented to counter supression teams and ranged squads. Sometimes they fight melee units and help against vehicles. TSM shoot stuff from range and punch weakened stuff in melee combat. They have 3 upgrades to help space marines dealing with different threats. And catachans have even more purposes. Do I need to count all of them? Damn sometimes I feel like IG players want to see anti-everything catachans like they were in retail with pretty broken melee and ranged damage. And, by the way, in t1 catachans counter asm and tsm.

[Lag]

I play all races bro.

[Caeltos]

Do not banter or discuss something between one another in this thread. Discussions usually never lead to any sort of concensus for the most part anyway.

[Lag]

Do not banter or discuss something between one another in this thread. Discussions usually never lead to any sort of concensus for the most part anyway.

Wise words.

[Bahamut]

- T3 warrior upgrades for termas and hormas breaking the concept of tyranids
- VC fex being quite underwhelming for its price (needs FotM)
- Vengeance rounds for sternguard need their range back to 38
- Doom of Malan'tai being a bit too good still
- Shees being shees (but i guess they'll always be shees)
- I would love trading vanguard power fist for melta bomb but i guess alot of people wont like that


Can't think of anything else really

[Bahamut]

nah, shees are shees and they'll always be shees lol. Seen them keep up with retreating units for very very, VERY long distances, and that's why they're shees

[Magus Magi]

I think you did great, and I do mean GREAT, work on both the FC terminator and the Vanguard veterans. They were missing something and you stepped in and made changes that increased their viability.

So...Sternguard:

I know that you could make this unit more interesting than they are now. For a new unit, added by this mod, with great looking models and an unique mechanic, they sit on hellfire rounds 90% of the time and are barely appealing compared to Tactical Marines.

In most matches I'd rather have the on-tap AV provided by a Tac missile launcher or the gen bashing power of flamer tacs. Certainly, the prospect of losing a leveled tac in order to get a level one SG is unappealing.

I believe that SG should keep their levels when they are upgraded and Vengeance round range should be reverted to normal.

Alright, I'm finished. I've said my peace. Forgive me for yammering on about this, but I took this last chance to voice my balance concerns.