Re-evaluation of the Basilisk Creeping Barrage

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

I know you - Toilailee asked Caeltos to nerf the Basilisk Creeping Barrage because of it's potency in killing units in retreat pathe, but nerfing it because of this is not, and probably never was justifiable, I'm seeing all these other globals that decimate light infantry armies in seconds, though nerfed from their retail state are still very potent.

For less red than the current Basilisk Creeping Barrage you have your Noxious cloud, Dark flames, this one particularly effective at killing retreating units, much more than the Basilisk Creeping Barrage, and the Hullfury strike also only 150 red, while the Basilisk Creeping Barrage remains 175(200 in retail). It is Artillery after all it's suppose to induce fear in the enemy, I want to call in an Artillery strike not just a disruption ability that knocks my enemy back, as I remember it wasn't even that effective in retail to begin with, furthermore it's not even that easy to place it properly in an enemy unit's retreat path, at best you might kill a few light infantry models, while the other globals I mentioned are far more effective but at less the price.
I've been thinking about this for a while now, please consider it.

[Torpid]

Oh comeon, to suggest that cloud and hellfury are superior to the basilisk barrage is ridiculous. You can't evade the barrage half as easy - heck it's near impossible. Not to mention once the first shell hits, you're absolutely screwed until the global ends and that leads to a lot of damage. The ability is fantastic, it's not just a retreat kill (which it was far too good at), but also an instant engagement winner and a great way of saving your own units/vehicles. It's leagues better than noxious cloud/hellfury/dark flames. That and noxious cloud were basically mini-nukes in retail, but cloud got the far more drastic nerf I feel.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i don't think it does any damage right now though. it was certainly good before but i feel that it should do some damage at least. it does still have uses though, particularly in combination with other things.

[Nurland]

I agree with Torpid on this one. The Retail CB was just absurd as was the imba shit cloud. Both have been nerfed into more reasonable state.

[crazyman64335]

so you want a 175 red rocket run? i don't get what you're asking here.

[Torpid]

i don't think it does any damage right now though. it was certainly good before but i feel that it should do some damage at least. it does still have uses though, particularly in combination with other things.

It still does decent damage and not a negligible amount either.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

do you have any stats on it? i've played LG a fair bit and used it a couple of times and i can't remember it ever doing any damage; just a lot of knockback. it's not in the codex or i'd look there.

[Indrid]

Code: Select all

Basilisk Creeping Barrage damage decreased from 40 to 30
Delay between Creeping Barrage shells increased from 1 to 1.5 seconds
Basilisk Creeping Barrage cost decreased from 200 to 175 Command

Were the initial changes from retail. Not sure if it's been changed further since but I don't think so.

[Lag]

I think OP is talking about not giving any additional nerfs to the barrage as it has already been nerfed and is fine for the money now. Then he proceeds to explain that some abilities can wipe armies, kill stuff on retreat and all for less red. I agree - do not nerf the barrage.

[Asmon]

I'd agree with a decrease of cooldown between shells, to 1.25s.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

Code: Select all

Basilisk Creeping Barrage damage decreased from 40 to 30
Delay between Creeping Barrage shells increased from 1 to 1.5 seconds
Basilisk Creeping Barrage cost decreased from 200 to 175 Command

Were the initial changes from retail. Not sure if it's been changed further since but I don't think so.

i forgot about the old patch notes
i don't know why it hasn't appeared to do damage for me though; 30 should still be significant...

[Codex]

I think OP is talking about not giving any additional nerfs to the barrage as it has already been nerfed and is fine for the money now. Then he proceeds to explain that some abilities can wipe armies, kill stuff on retreat and all for less red. I agree - do not nerf the barrage.

If you're correct, then that would be odd. This would be the first thread I've ever seen which is trying to say DON'T NERF SOMETHING (considering this is indeed in a balance forum).

[Torpid]

Hmm, that makes me think. Maybe I should create a thread to ensure my wonderful LA doesn't get nerfed in any way whatsoever.

[Maestro Cretella]

First of all, you are not remembering correctly if you think the Creeping Barrage was not effective in retail. As a 200 red mini-nuke, it was almost as good as -- and in some cases actually better than -- some of the tier 3 nukes. Toilailee used it extensively in retail, and if you kept up with all of the replays and casts featuring him, you would know just how effective it was.

Secondly, your comparisons between the globals are superficial to the point that they aren't really valid. The four globals you mentioned have different properties and serve different functions. Creeping Barrage is the only one that comes with disruption, and this is something you simply cannot dismiss. Consequently, it has far more capacity to win engagements than the other globals (noxious cloud possibly withstanding, but probably not). It is an engagement winner global.

Dark Flames, by itself when not combined with the Icon of Tzeentch, is primarily a post-engagement global. It has poor damage potential and is mainly used to wipe infantry squads that are retreating at about 40 HP or less. The advantage of Dark Flames isn't high damage, but simply that you can place it in a unit's retreat path when the rest of your squads are otherwise out of range.

Hellfury can serve the same function as Dark Flames, but has more front-loaded damage, is harder to time and has hamburger-shaped AoE instead of hot dog.

Neither has the engagement winning capacity of Creeping Barrage, and both are lackluster when used during engagements as mini-nukes. It is much easier to micro out of the area of effect for these globals, while tougher squads like tacs can even just tank the damage outright. As low to moderate area-of-effect damage abilities, these globals are specifically better against high-model, low-hp infantry squads, and are relatively ineffective against tougher squads. Creeping Barrage, as an on-demand disruption ability, does not suffer in this way. Tacs are not any less vulnerable to disruption than guardsmen.

Thirdly, the concerns you've brought up are less about Creeping Barrage being lacking, and more about it not being what you want it to be. "It's suppose to induce fear" means nothing for gameplay purposes. It's an on-demand disruption ability that can be used to win engagements. Use it as such. Plenty of other players are doing just that and it's working out very well for them.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

Well was worth a try :p I just miss that big "Boom" each shell gave off along with the shake on the camera, really made it feel like artillery.

My point was it's annoying dark flames still wipe my army in retreat when the argument for nerfing Creeping Barrage was that it killed units in retreat.

[Ace of Swords]

Dark flames got nerfed alot, all it's supposed to do is damage, the creeping barrage is CC and and a forced retreat even on a full army, beside that, it still wiped squads in retreat if timed well.

[SirSid]

Dark Flames, by itself when not combined with the Icon of Tzeentch, is primarily a post-engagement global. It has poor damage potential and is mainly used to wipe infantry squads that are retreating at about 40 HP or less. The advantage of Dark Flames isn't high damage, but simply that you can place it in a unit's retreat path when the rest of your squads are otherwise out of range.

What ??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Dark flames is a very potent global ATM , It dose not need to be combined with icon of Tzeentch, in fact when it is combined with that war gear it is totaly outrageous. It is VERY usefull on retreat, but in regular combat it is also very effective anything burned by it is forced to retreat or fight at very low HP ( very dangrous vs a choas army ) Also this globals speed makes it VERY hard to dodge ( near imposible unless moving when it is first placed )

Chaos players always underestimate thare globals , IDK y , thare all so good.

P.S. Nurf that silly icon of Tzeentch

[Torpid]

Gotta disagree completely there Sid. Dark flames is crap mid-engagement, sure it hits, but its main damage factor is its DOT which is easily evaded since the ability is as Maestro so wonderfully put it "hotdog" shaped not "hamburger" shaped. Damage potential is pretty poor, sorceror's other globals are amazing and so the cost of dark flames is very high. All in all this relegates it to a position in which it is only really worth the cost when using it to retreat-wipe. Not saying that's UP, it's just fine.

CoT is also fine, it appears extreme but it's really not that bad, the sorceror has to be fairly close to activate it and you can just move that squad back. ultimately luring a foe into a blastmaster shot then placing a cloud in retreat path is far more devastating and much more likely to wipe the squad (practically guaranteed to be fair, unless they hear and then predict the blastmaster).

[SirSid]

Im not saying dark flames is OP, Personaly i think it's in a good place ATM.

However i think it is very strong, if u are using it vs tacks in retreat or something sure it dose not have the high damage needed to whipe them, but guards men , nids , even scouts from any army have to be very carefull of it.

Dark flames is a perfect eg. of what a global should NOT be. Something that if used right and at the right time has a drastic effect on the game that 1 player has no control over.

Also it's DOT is not to be shruged off. used mid engagment with fast switching of primary targets ( especialy with dual Tz. mariens ) it is very dangrous.

But im derailing a thread about something elce again witch is not my intent so i shall make this the last i say about dark flames hear.

[Torpid]

Dark flames is a perfect eg. of what a global should NOT be. Something that if used right and at the right time has a drastic effect on the game that 1 player has no control over.

You assert that "Something that if used right and at the right time has a drastic effect on the game that 1 player has no control over." is inherently bad, and what a global shouldn't be, but you don't actually explain why that is the case.

Surely one would assume in that one player using it "right and at the right time" they have already either circumvented the efforts of their foe to stop them by showcasing their superior skill, or their foe merely hasn't done anything in retaliation and of course that being the case I see nothing wrong with such globals; it would be silly if people couldn't get an advantage for either them playing well, or their foes playing bad.

[Maestro Cretella]

It's uncharacteristic of me to be cocky, but I probably use Dark Flames better than anyone else. At the very least, I regularly wipe squads with it, with and without the Icon of Tzeentch, and I think I understand it better than you Sid. I don't think you've used it enough.

I never said Dark Flames wasn't potent. It can be used to wipe squads in retreat when nothing else would otherwise be able to get to that squad. This is undeniably potent.

It is, however, a highly situational global that relies heavily on either a) the squad in question already being inches away from death, or b) synergy with another ability (Curse of Tzeentch). Using it mid-engagement as an AoE attack is an ineffective and highly cost-ineffective use of the ability, especially when doombolts, warpfire, and blastmaster are better without costing any red.

To give an idea of the damage potential of the ability, I recently used it on a retreating IG stormtrooper squad with the intention of wiping it. Before it ran through, the stormtroopers had 2 models and 96 HP. After running through the entire length of the ability, they had 1 model left and 21 HP. They did not get wiped.

It is actually my opinion that Curse of Tzeentch is overpowered against certain squads, but this is more a problem with Curse of Tzeentch than Dark Flames.