Sniper setup/tear-down too long?

[Torpid]

Elite changes ftw.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

He does not have Autarch speed. Autarch has speed 8, he has speed 6.5, he has scout speed. He only has 40 LoS and 350 hp. You can just shoot him to death while he is retreating he has so little hp, or as he is the primary choice of AV for GK send a vehicle straight after him since he's so fragile he's gonna die so long as you don't charge the vehicle head-first into the GK army with no support. Or just use single model controlling abilities like full auto/warboss full auto (same name, I dunno?)/flesh hook/psychic lash/commissar execute/HOTW/mind war/ ranged attack on the WL, so he is very killable.

And what can we do the races without sniping abilities? And please, don't say that Chaos Lord have the Drain Life, the Chaos Sorcerer the Subjugate or the GUO the Foul Snare ability, because a GK with decent micro isn't going to keep the Vindicare Assasin at range of these abilities.

The Vindicare Assasin it's simply retarted OP ATM. His synergy with the GK Librarian it's simply awesome, and makes that you are never going to need to buy another AV source except maybe the Krak Grenades to the Interceptors. Light Vehicles are going to be destroy in seconds, and Dread except maybe the Assault Cannon Dread or the MoK Chaos Dread aren't going to have a chance.

That said yeah, he is too strong atm a set-up time would fix that though.

Nope. The solution is make the Turbo-penetrator Round ability like the Techmarine High Powered Shot style. Of course, increase the damage and the snare.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Nothing is impossible to kill

a sniper unit that doesn't have to setup, does av that snares and has autarch speed is hard to kill, add cloak and gl dealing with that.

Then he will be a Priority target wouldn't he? He's vulnerable to Jump units or Melee types, GK lacks Snaring capabilities of any kind and VA was a great addition to them. He's a fast response option to deal w Walkers of any kind, Especially in 1v1. Right now he lacks Utilities and gets One-shotted by stuff , they just reduce his Dps slightly.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

That said yeah, he is too strong atm a set-up time would fix that though.

too strong & Too fragile

[Kvek]

Nothing is impossible to kill

a sniper unit that doesn't have to setup, does av that snares and has autarch speed is hard to kill, add cloak and gl dealing with that.

Then he will be a Priority target wouldn't he? He's vulnerable to Jump units or Melee types, GK lacks Snaring capabilities of any kind and VA was a great addition to them. He's a fast response option to deal w Walkers of any kind, Especially in 1v1. Right now he lacks Utilities and gets One-shotted by stuff , they just reduce his Dps slightly.

He has better sight range than most units, better speed than most units, he's really hard to kill if well microed, (bleh repeating the same shit all the time)

lacks utilities ?

He costs only 350/30 doesn't bleed, is a lascannon that doesn't have to setup literally, speed 6,5, and what happens to lascannons/beamy deffguns etc when the vehicle is dead ? they are left to cap shit, but VA can switch to AI rounds and he will be still fucking effective.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Yeah, he's kind of really over powered at the moment. The fact that he can get away free of worry as long as he's micro'd even marginally is a bit bothersome.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

well, check the patch notes; he's been nerfed a bit.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

well, check the patch notes; he's been nerfed a bit.

I understand this, but I'm saying this post-nerf, as in beta 8.

It's not so much the damage that bothers me, but it's his ease of maneuverability. As an IG player, it's incredibly difficult to get close enough to him to do any sort of damage, as we don't have any jump troop. I find that one of the few and only successful ways of hitting him as an IG player is using stealth and bursting him down as quick as possible (which is still very unlikely). As it's been said - there needs to be a fine balance between him not having to set up and him being able to escape. I'm not sure what that would be, but as it stands, he's a very safe purchase to make without much consequence.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i have no idea how well this would work but the LG's sniper rifle might be an option. especially with its ability

[Torpid]

Yeah, that works fantastically, aside some AK storms it will kill the VA very fast. I assume the LC can just execute him and the inquisitor can mandate then charge at him with the inferno pistol instantly forcing a retreat, or just infiltrate another unit like ogryns to kill him in base or on the field. She can also HOTW on retreat, but that's only 100 damage.

You can also mortar shell him from behind with spotters then focus fire him down. Or just try your luck with a manticore, but that's not a reliable counter.

[xerrol nanoha]

i have no idea how well this would work but the LG's sniper rifle might be an option. especially with its ability

That is a thought, I hadn't even considered that even though I would have prefered VA to behave more like a setup team (mekboy) than as a generalist ranged subcommander, but that certainly does give us some resources to deal with.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Yeah, that works fantastically, aside some AK storms it will kill the VA very fast. I assume the LC can just execute him and the inquisitor can mandate then charge at him with the inferno pistol instantly forcing a retreat, or just infiltrate another unit like ogryns to kill him in base or on the field. She can also HOTW on retreat, but that's only 100 damage.

You can also mortar shell him from behind with spotters then focus fire him down. Or just try your luck with a manticore, but that's not a reliable counter.

Commissar is effective but requires that the VA be not paying attention, because you have to get relatively close (which generally doesn't work as this is hardly the case). Best method is that - and presuming you're playing the inquis - you use the infiltration she provides on something like catas or ogryn, as you had mentioned, to sneak up on him. That is of course, hoping they don't have infiltration detectors as well ^^. Even so, it's really difficult for other commanders as they obviously don't have the same toolkit at their disposal.

It's just generally frustrating. You have to put a lot more effort into killing off this subcommander, whereas the trade off for buying a VA is slim to none. It'll probably take some tweaking is all, I'm confident that the right adjustments will be made in time.

Also, I'm not sure the LG's sniper will do the trick to get rid of him fully - He can probably harass him, but I've not actually seen how the damage of other sniper squads applies to him. But even then, I suppose that could at least have him pushed out of engagements for fear of losing him, which is helpful in and of itself as well.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

he's setup so that 2.5 or so sniper shots will kill him. assuming i'm remembering correctly...

[xerrol nanoha]

he's setup so that 2.5 or so sniper shots will kill him. assuming i'm remembering correctly...

While there are no public numbers the last I heard was 325 hp.
This is 3 shots of 160 damage for rangers,
and 2 shots of 170 damage for scouts.

[Ace of Swords]

He has not setup time, the problem is that he can bleed 2 models from a single squad of scouts, and wiped out a ranger squad before having to retreat.

So yeah, he costs 30 power, getting out a squad of snipers or rangers is 30 power, and they won't counter him still.

[Forestradio]

1. The vindicare can be upgraded for around 20 power and increase his health to 450. Said upgrade also increases his health regeneration (not sure by how much)

2. Infiltrated snipers are supposed to counter him (according to Caeltos).

[Nuclear Arbitor]

that's what i was aiming for ace. no idea if that's how he was actually implemented though.

[Caeltos]

1. The vindicare can be upgraded for around 20 power and increase his health to 450. Said upgrade also increases his health regeneration (not sure by how much)

2. Infiltrated snipers are supposed to counter him (according to Caeltos).

1. That's just one of the wargears. The next one is the one that grants him his actual infiltration capability. It will be of similiar cost like the "Extended Operations" (100/20/25) power, rounding up the complete cost of;

350/30 + 100/20 + 100/20/25 = 550/70(75)

Now onto other part;

- His vision range is 40 , whilst his weapon range is 55 - this means that he cannot fully utilize his weapon range without having an essential spotter squad. He could go in solo and try and be agressive, but you're going to have to look for an superior vision squad to spot him out before he sees you.

Scouts, and Rangers both have superior vision range, and are both capable detectors squads as well, meaning you'll most likely always get the jump on him if he's being careless and agressive.

Since he's not a detector either, makes him a viable target to try to be subtle and approach. Meaning infiltrated Stormtroopers/Kommandos/Etc a very viable option to try to approach him.

However, since he's most likely always be accompanied by Stormtroopers, to fully ensure his safety - the GK's will commit more to ensuring the protection of the Vindicare Assassin. Meaning you can seize the ground on other location, or you can seize the opportunity to try to suprise & attack him.

The "Extended Operations" is mostly an means of counter-investment against the Snipers, however- given the hefty price cost, it'll delay other unit purchases/units whereas if he ignores the equipment itself, but he'll have to play more cautiously, and is more open to surprise attacks.

With Raveners getting some "minor" love, (12 pop = less upkeep and more army capability) is abit of a side-note and "Don't forget this unit" mention, you can equip them with either Devourers, or just go melee with him (if that's your preference) and burrow-strike and approach him. The cost is roughly the same for the squad you invest in, but ultimately, you'll have a means to counteract him. Again, the note that he is not a detector means there's quite numerous ways to approach him.

And of course, whilst he is mobile to a degree - the GK's are unable to provide with more numerous of AV counter-measure units with a "hard-hitting" factor, compared to other races. So if you know the Vindicare Assasin is in X position, try attacking Y since he's commiting his AV resource at that location.

He has not setup time, the problem is that he can bleed 2 models from a single squad of scouts, and wiped out a ranger squad before having to retreat.

I don't see how that's theoretically possible now. Considering we added in a "blockage" from utilizing a "2x snipe shot capability" + the vision range VS weapon range.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

1. The vindicare can be upgraded for around 20 power and increase his health to 450. Said upgrade also increases his health regeneration (not sure by how much)

2. Infiltrated snipers are supposed to counter him (according to Caeltos).

Oh Cloak, Finally. i Hope nobody detest this Idea. VA would be a worthy investment in a Long run.

1. That's just one of the wargears. The next one is the one that grants him his actual infiltration capability. It will be of similiar cost like the "Extended Operations" (100/20/25) power, rounding up the complete cost of;

350/30 + 100/20 + 100/20/25 = 550/70(75)

Now onto other part;

-

[xerrol nanoha]

@caeltos

Does this mean that the Vindicare will have energy in the future? Will you factor in anti-energy counters in the Vindicare's design?

[Ace of Swords]

I don't see how that's theoretically possible now. Considering we added in a "blockage" from utilizing a "2x snipe shot capability" + the vision range VS weapon range.

Because it's an over investment in a unit that's useless against the t2 and t3 gk rooster?

You are suggesting that to counter a 350/30 unit that, for that price alone counters 450/125 which are walkers, I need, myself to purchase 2 snipers squads, give them the sarge and infiltration, a total of 770/140.

And these units are absolutely useless vs their whole t3, and pretty useless vs the libby/dred/purfiers, without even counting how easy interceptors in t2 wipe out squads that need to setup without having to care for their energy.

Oh and yeah, if you only go with a single sniper/ranger squad, which would actually match the cost of the VA they are going to lose atleast 2 models while the VA is perfectly safe.

[Torpid]

No, becuase the VA would be shot first due to his inferior LoS, then the VA would kill one model in retaliation but have to retreat - except he had his health buffing upgrade which costs 20 power, which would allow him to kill an extra model - or he had his infiltration upgrade which I assume also costs 20 power - which would allow him to initiate the engagement killing an extra model also.

What this does mean however is that the VA fully upgraded come next patch will be able to solo scouts without sergeant and rangers.

[Ace of Swords]

scouts take initial setup time +12 sec each shot, the Va takes what 10 seconds? if your VA was going in the direction of the scouts while they are doing the setup he can kill the second model (if he is lucky he will kill the sniper model which will grant him more time because it needs to setup) and he should be able to fire that second shot with 2-3 seconds before the scouts can take their second shot and kill him, that means he has all the time to retreat.

[Torpid]

True, true. I forgot about the set-up time differences. Suffice to say it seems apparent snipers are not a very economical counter to the VA, especially if they have interceptors because you're just crushing your own composition by getting them.

The VA probably will need a set-up time, but the obvious problem with this is that jump troops will likely over-perform against him given that GK doesn't really have a reliable form of knockback or control.

[Caeltos]

On a more serious note.

What this does mean however is that the VA fully upgraded come next patch will be able to solo scouts without sergeant and rangers.

I don't see how, but okay.

Because it's an over investment in a unit that's useless against the t2 and t3 gk rooster?

Ah yes, Snipers are useless against a faction that has high req/per model, and has no means to reinforce on the field, unless they have a LRC.

You are suggesting that to counter a 350/30 unit that, for that price alone counters 450/125 which are walkers

Devastators/Havoc/Shurikens/etc have progressive utility, and when upgraded deal with walkers/vehicles and whatnot. And they're cheaper, but that's okay?

(Ranged Walkers will be more potent to trade with the Vindicare, or punish)

without even counting how easy interceptors in t2 wipe out squads that need to setup without having to care for their energy.

Please don't hyperbole the whole thing, one could speculate about a thing being fielded, when the factors of the being, the unit is -

A) Not needed
B) Not possible

or he had his infiltration upgrade which I assume also costs 20 power - which would allow him to initiate the engagement killing an extra model also.

It's pending on the investment, but 20/25 power is pretty much a safe bet. But what I can't fathom is why people are jumping to conclussions and just assuming it'll be a regular infilitration. It's general execution will require quite a numerous games to be played, and possibly weeks of playtesting to finalize.

Right now, it's all WIP, and I've said that numerous times. People are either too fucking daft to understand that, or have no understanding of the general meaning of the beta. Or potentially, just don't listen.

[xerrol nanoha]

@Caeltos

There are 4 types of infiltration in this game.

1) passive infiltration (unsure if in multiplayer)
2) energy per second infiltration (i.e. scouts / rangers)
2) idle infiltration (i.e. lootas / genestealers)
4) temporary infiltration (i.e. webway gates / tzeench worship)

What were you considering?

I expected the Vindicare to have a setup time and then infiltrate while set up.

[Kvek]

Because it's an over investment in a unit that's useless against the t2 and t3 gk rooster?

Ah yes, Snipers are useless against a faction that has high req/per model, and has no means to reinforce on the field, unless they have a LRC.

You are suggesting that to counter a 350/30 unit that, for that price alone counters 450/125 which are walkers

Devastators/Havoc/Shurikens/etc have progressive utility, and when upgraded deal with walkers/vehicles and whatnot. And they're cheaper, but that's okay?

(Ranged Walkers will be more potent to trade with the Vindicare, or punish)

1.Snipers are useless against the t2 and t3 gk rooster...

2. They are okay because they don't fuck HI/INF after they kill the vehicle, and they also need to setup.

[Ace of Swords]

Nice strawman caeltos, but read carefully what I wrote, also lascannons can't chase down a dread or a vehicle in general, taking in consideration the sm lascannon it takes 2 seconds to setup, not sure how much to de setup, and 2 seconds to open the fire, tell me how that is going to kill a vehicle alone? Meanwhile your precious VA is able to chase down ANY vehicle from a long distance and literally solo dreds,tanks,transports, it can even 1shot mantincores in the front armor with libby infiltration,mind blades and his own buff, and without the libby he is able to 1 shot it in the rear.

Oh yeah, and kvek answered already to the rest.

Devastators/Havoc/Shurikens/etc have progressive utility, and when upgraded deal with walkers/vehicles and whatnot. And they're cheaper, but that's okay?

when upgraded

setup teams LOSE ALL EFFECTIVNESS vs infantry when upgraded, I tough you knew this.

Please don't hyperbole the whole thing, one could speculate about a thing being fielded, when the factors of the being, the unit is -

A) Not needed
B) Not possible

Interceptors are a must have vs everyone but IG, and sometimes they are still extremely good vs them aswell.

[xerrol nanoha]

Ah yes, Snipers are useless against a faction that has high req/per model, and has no means to reinforce on the field, unless they have a LRC.

Devastators/Havoc/Shurikens/etc have progressive utility, and when upgraded deal with walkers/vehicles and whatnot. And they're cheaper, but that's okay?

1.Snipers are useless against the t2 and t3 gk rooster...

2. They are okay because they don't fuck HI/INF after they kill the vehicle, and they also need to setup.

It seems that Caeltos has an impression that Snipers are better or ideally suited for killing tanky high req cost units that take 3-4 sniper shots to bring down... Which is actually the opposite, that Snipers are stronger against squads that bleed with every shot.

I get that people complain about their few expensive models getting bled when they take too much damage, but when you take a bunch of health and value and consolidate it among fewer models, those models are gonna cost more individually.

I would say its still preferable to bleed smaller amounts for each shot, than to bleed once every 3 shots instead.

Do you understand Caeltos's second point? I'm not sure where he's coming from by saying that most suppression setup teams gain AV in T2 and are cheaper than (something? unknown? possibly VA?)

I wouldn't give any credit to statements about setup teams until Grey knights actually have something that qualifies.

[Codex]

Ah yes, Snipers are useless against a faction that has high req/per model, and has no means to reinforce on the field, unless they have a LRC.

Um, xerrol, I think Caeltos was being sarcastic. Snipers are good vs infantry, whether they bleed with every shot or every 2 shots. They're just fucking annoying to deal with.