Sniper setup/tear-down too long?

[xerrol nanoha]

Ah yes, Snipers are useless against a faction that has high req/per model, and has no means to reinforce on the field, unless they have a LRC.

Um, xerrol, I think Caeltos was being sarcastic. Snipers are good vs infantry, whether they bleed with every shot or every 2 shots. They're just fucking annoying to deal with.

I think the worry for the SM / Eldar matchups are that fielding a vindicare forces 2x sniper scouts/ rangers as the 'best' response, at which point if the vindicare dies, the double snipers/ rangers are much less suited to fighting the rest of the grey knight roster.

In which case, the Vindicare becomes super efficient as a unit that can 2shot tacticals and 1shot most eldar infantry and yet still pay for himself in death when the opponent has built obsolete units to counter said vindicare.

[Caeltos]

Because it's an over investment in a unit that's useless against the t2 and t3 gk rooster?

Ah yes, Snipers are useless against a faction that has high req/per model, and has no means to reinforce on the field, unless they have a LRC.

You are suggesting that to counter a 350/30 unit that, for that price alone counters 450/125 which are walkers

Devastators/Havoc/Shurikens/etc have progressive utility, and when upgraded deal with walkers/vehicles and whatnot. And they're cheaper, but that's okay?

(Ranged Walkers will be more potent to trade with the Vindicare, or punish)

1.Snipers are useless against the t2 and t3 gk rooster...

2. They are okay because they don't fuck HI/INF after they kill the vehicle, and they also need to setup.

1. I disagree completely. Snipers are quite alright as a progressive sustain dps versus SHI like Terminators. They're vulnerable to the jump, sure - but snipers were common-ground as a anti-SHI unit in the old days. They still are, but they're just not maybe optimal compared to the other purchases. Overall, the sniper has a fundemental and strong general design by nature to be strong against GK's overall T1 and T2 transitional play. It's like saying fucking Plasma Gun Tacs are shit against T3 Chaos because they have nothing but Tanks. It's completely disregarding the transitional play and figuring out the army comps that follow.

It's so fucking stupid beyond my wildest imagination.

2. I don't think people understand the phrase of continous progression. And of course, the difference between specialist/generalist unit.

Interceptors are a must have vs everyone but IG, and sometimes they are still extremely good vs them aswell.

No, they're not a must-have. If it's a preference for people, that's their choice. Not a must-have. I've seen games without them, and they do just fine. Thus the phrase "must-have" is completely and utterly pointless.


I'm getting tired of people hyperboling and making stupid shit up. Do your research before throwing in figures for "comparison" sake, or the simplistic narrow-minded tunnelvisioning is so aggrovating that I'm losing my temper. Or the god damn "Theorycrafted well-made up situation that is in favor of my arguement" is so fucking mindboggling childish and stupid.

Seriously, I've said it before and I'm getting really tired of some peoples bullshit by now, and here's what I've got to say.

Don't like the existing BETA? do the following

A) Play previous beta
B) Accept that it's a beta and things are developing along the way
C) Uninstall

Do A - I don't care, you've pretty much proved to be useless as a source of viable feedback if you're complaining about things that are not set-in-stone anyway

Do B - Good, now we're making progress.

Do C - I don't care.

Like I said before, I'm even contradicting what I've said before, and I haven't come around to setting up new balance forum/rules. You never reach a concensus on anything when trying to discuss things, it's just one side throwing rocks at another one person that throws more rocks at you. It's completely and utterly pointless for the most part. And I don't know why I'm even engulfed in this nonsense.

No-setup is staying by the way. New & fresh approach. And I'm liking it personally

[Raffa]

Jeezis. It's a beta. That means tinkering so that everything is as good as possible for the real release. In fact I'm sure nobody must have said this before otherwise people wouldn't continue bitching on and on about the unit...ow shit no way homie! I did a few pages back..?

Anyways, initial thoughts on the Vindicare:

It seems VA is intended to help solve the AV problem everyone has been screaming about for ages on these forums. I don't think it's even debatable that GK, VA aside, had serious issues dealing with vehicles until paladins come along. Additionally, this unit provides significant bleeding power so it's a question of whether these two potentials overlap too much, and if so does the price/performance need adjustment.

But first ofc it's not going to be right the first time. You know, GK AV was kind of a bigass hole in their roster? Which kind of needs a significant, permanent solution? You can't just get this right like *snap* first time. Mind you 2x Rhinos are still good for the more micro-minded of you as, yes, they can kite and hit vehicles. It requires more concentration but oh noes! The VA gives that precious long-distance snare that certainly helps GK.

One reason the VA has such powerful anti-infantry potential is simple: he combines the best of Scout snipers and rangers. For a T2 sniper unit intended to be the best in the game, I don't see a problem here. The crucial part is that, if you have infiltrated one of the above units and your positioning is not perfect (i.e. long range) the other members open fire with their pew pew guns and keep the squad revealed that bit longer, which makes them much easier to target and bleed. The VA forgives much of the crappy micro which leads to people losing scouts/rangers from firing when too close because he infiltrates very fast after firing since he's the only member of the squad. Thus, despite his low HP, he is significantly harder to pin down as you simply see him less that other infiltrating snipers.

That said, I want to see a lot more of him and how his development goes before making a definitive judgment. Impression so far is I like him design-wise although tweaking is needed.

and PUH-LIZ some of you guys act like this guy is final as he is and will be here exactly as he is now for like EVERRRRR.

In fact I basically disagree with every "conclusion" people have reached with the VA.

[Torpid]

All I'm going to say is that interceptors are most certainly not necessary in the eldar/ig/nid/ork/chaos MUs. Oh wait, that's all MUs except for the SM one.

I would even say they're a bad choice from what I can tell, at as a first purchase, in said MUs.

[Forestradio]

Jeezis. It's a beta. That means tinkering so that everything is as good as possible for the real release. In fact I'm sure nobody must have said this before otherwise people wouldn't continue bitching on and on about the unit...ow shit no way homie! I did a few pages back..?

Anyways, initial thoughts on the Vindicare:

It seems VA is intended to help solve the AV problem everyone has been screaming about for ages on these forums. I don't think it's even debatable that GK, VA aside, had serious issues dealing with vehicles until paladins come along. Additionally, this unit provides significant bleeding power so it's a question of whether these two potentials overlap too much, and if so does the price/performance need adjustment.

But first ofc it's not going to be right the first time. You know, GK AV was kind of a bigass hole in their roster? Which kind of needs a significant, permanent solution? You can't just get this right like *snap* first time. Mind you 2x Rhinos are still good for the more micro-minded of you as, yes, they can kite and hit vehicles. It requires more concentration but oh noes! The VA gives that precious long-distance snare that certainly helps GK.

One reason the VA has such powerful anti-infantry potential is simple: he combines the best of Scout snipers and rangers. For a T2 sniper unit intended to be the best in the game, I don't see a problem here. The crucial part is that, if you have infiltrated one of the above units and your positioning is not perfect (i.e. long range) the other members open fire with their pew pew guns and keep the squad revealed that bit longer, which makes them much easier to target and bleed. The VA forgives much of the crappy micro which leads to people losing scouts/rangers from firing when too close because he infiltrates very fast after firing since he's the only member of the squad. Thus, despite his low HP, he is significantly harder to pin down as you simply see him less that other infiltrating snipers.

That said, I want to see a lot more of him and how his development goes before making a definitive judgment. Impression so far is I like him design-wise although tweaking is needed.

and PUH-LIZ some of you guys act like this guy is final as he is and will be here exactly as he is now for like EVERRRRR.

In fact I basically disagree with every "conclusion" people have reached with the VA.

+1 to this.

[Raffa]

Currently it seems to me complaints about the Vindi are slightly exaggerated - he's extremely vulnerable with that puny hp pool. No setup seems OK despite my reservations at first. All in all a well-though through unit.

The biggest problem is he gets anti vehicle rounds for free and can switch at will.

I would tie both his abilities to upgrades at ~20 power each and he should be fine. It's more that he falls into the "really fucking annoying" category rather than "OP".

[Ace of Swords]

Yes, 6-shotting dreds that can't either run away or approach it, is just fucking annoying.

[Torpid]

From my experience of the VA he seems to work in a way that requires a different approach than normal to defeat, but then again, GK in general do. You want a heavier t1 and an even heavier t2 so that you ensure the GK never reaches t3 and therefore has to over-invest in t2 which inevitably is their downfall as they begin to bleed a lot and can't kill your tank.

The VA is like sentinels/shees in that you have to do something different. Infiltration is woefully underused in this game but picks him off pretty damn well, as do jump teams. Ranged tanks/walkers are also very effective vs him, however I do feel his ability is overpowered, without that he would be really good. I suggest making it only increase damage by 20%, or that while it is activated you can't swap ammo types. Also a 20power upgrade to obtain AV rounds would also be cool, he is very threatening to transports atm, and he comes out too fast to ever make transport play vs GK useful.

P.S I think I was drunk when I originally posted this, but it makes much more sense now post-edit.