Stacking damage buffs/debuffs

[Raffa]

For example:

Stormboys with UYC attack devastators in melee. 3 factors in play:
1. Stormboy 30 dps standard
2. +30% dps power_melee vs. HI armour
3. +30% dps UYC

So is it +30% damage on the basic damage x2? If so dps is 48.
Or is it +30% damage on base damage then +30% on the new damage? If so dps is 50.7

It doesn't seem like much here, but take it a step further...

LA with corrosive claws (targets take 30% more damage) and lone hunter (+50%), vs. HI armour (+30%) with capillary tower (+10%) and stalk globals (+25%). So by my calculations dps could be between 156.19 and 222.21

I'm confused. Would appreciate answer from someone technically minded

[Torpid]

I would assume it's multiplicative not additive. That is if we start with 100dps and we add a series of 20% damage buffs it will grant 1.2x damage per buff, rather than simply adding 20dps per buff.

[Vapor]

It's multiplicative in your example, UYC acts on the power melee damage. However, if you were to use FtE + guide then it would be additive (25 + 30 = 55% buff). A ranged dmg buff would be multiplicative with a standard dmg buff though.

[Ace of Swords]

If I understood what you are asking correctly, the damage should follow this order:

1) Direct damage buff on the unit, if X unit does 100 power melee dps and you place a 30% buff they will do 130dps

2)External factors, a unit that does 130 power melee will do 170dps on heavy infantry.

3)Debuffs, they follow the same logic of external factors, but it's most likely that they come even later, so if our unit was doing 170 dps before on, let's say tacts, when they get debuffed by doom they will suffer a total of 245 dps.

For the rest follow the logic, if you first apply use yer choppas that will stack up on the base damage, if you stack up another damage buff like guide on that same unit it will add up to the already modified damage.

[Lulgrim]

However, if you were to use FtE + guide then it would be additive (25 + 30 = 55% buff).

? Why would it do that?

[Vapor]

However, if you were to use FtE + guide then it would be additive (25 + 30 = 55% buff).

? Why would it do that?

That's what I heard a loooong time ago, it's entirely possible I'm wrong and it looks like I am judging by the other responses.

[M4573R_CH13f]

you should be wrong, it wouldn't make sense.

btw: stacking in dow2 is quite funny, i tried with a friend once, got 35 squads of 1-model-sluggas and used waaagh on a nob squad. they go absolutely insane, you got 35 times 1,045 dmg multiplier --> 4,6x damage. and an unbelieveable speedbuff. we put them on a bbs rear armour, one swing of ich of them an it was done with uyc as well. it really is funny

works with, say, a lascannon as well. teamgame with 3 players (cl, fc and ra). ig or space build lascannon, get sacred standarte on fc and let him die nearby, put fte on the cannon, cataclysm, execute a model and use the power sword buff of the cl.
220 damage per shot goes up to 440 (execute), 880 (cataclysm), 1232 (ss), 1355 (power sword) and up to 1694 (fte). it is ridicolous

another example could be the la. corrosive claws debuffing the enemy to take 30% more damage, 62,5 power melee (+30% to hi), lonely hunter +50%, stalk + 20%, cataclysm + 100%, and maybe farseer doom and guide + and - 30%. how fast is it going to kill a terminator 0.O.
forgot level 10 +36% as well

[Dark Riku]

This whole thread confused me back when it got posted. And I got reminded of it after posting something in another thread. Labbing some stuff has made me confused.
Banshee dmg per swing: 35 (power melee)

Attacking a tactical squad: 27-28 damage per swing in the lab.
Which would be supported by 35*0.6(melee resistance)*1.3(power melee) = 27,3
And not by 35 - 14(40%melee resistance) + 10,5(30%power melee) = 31,5

But then on retreat ~40damage per swing.
Which would be supported by 35-14(40%melee resistance) + 10.5(30%power melee)+ 10.5(30%retreat) = 42
And not by 35*0,6*1,3*1,3 = 35,49
Nor by 35*0,6*1,3*1,3*0,85 = 30,1666...
(0,85 retreat damage modifier banshees should have)

Can anyone provide a clear answer here and preferably some proof? :p

[Lulgrim]

Need to experiment on modded units/weapons (100% damage, 100% accuracy, no regen, rounded base values such as 100 damage etc.) to sort it out I think.

[Asmon]

Riku, you know units lose melee resistance when retreating right? :p

[Lulgrim]

Riku, you know units lose melee resistance when retreating right? :p

I never thought they do, but this is quite easy to put to rest so don't start arguing back & forth about this particular issue for now, I will check how it works for good.

[Faultron]

so how it is working lulgrim?melee resistance lost on retreat?

[Codex]

Riku, you know units lose melee resistance when retreating right? :p

Having actually done the lab with Riku I'm pretty sure they do not. Tacs do not take 114% extra damage on retreat, or else we'd have seen that.

[Bahamut]

This whole thread confused me back when it got posted. And I got reminded of it after posting something in another thread. Labbing some stuff has made me confused.
Banshee dmg per swing: 35 (power melee)

Attacking a tactical squad: 27-28 damage per swing in the lab.
Which would be supported by 35*0.6(melee resistance)*1.3(power melee) = 27,3
And not by 35 - 14(40%melee resistance) + 10,5(30%power melee) = 31,5

But then on retreat ~40damage per swing.
Which would be supported by 35-14(40%melee resistance) + 10.5(30%power melee)+ 10.5(30%retreat) = 42
And not by 35*0,6*1,3*1,3 = 35,49
Nor by 35*0,6*1,3*1,3*0,85 = 30,1666...
(0,85 retreat damage modifier banshees should have)

Can anyone provide a clear answer here and preferably some proof? :p

The correct way is the multipliers. adding and resting makes no sense in that case because what you're doing is this:

dmg -40%dmg +30%dmg or dmg*(1 +.3 -.4). This formula only applies to stacked buffs of the same type, but not for independent instances of damage calculations

For example, let's say vanguard are being buffed by FTE, FC banner, and battle cry and they are attacking some tzeench marines which have melee resist and heavy armor

raw damage = basedmg*(1 + 0.25 + 0.25 + 10) = basedmg*1.60

final damage (the one that tzeentch marines will take) = rawdmg*0.6*1.3 = rawdmg*0.73 = basedmg*1.6*0.73 = basedmg*1.248


The reason why it is like this is because if not, TG under basic syanpse lvl 4 would be completely inmune to piercing damage (-70% from super heavy - 31% from syanpse)

Or vehicle armor type with melee resist (SL, nurgle predator) would be totally inmune to power melee and take only 10% from melee_heavy. And none of these statements is true

[Vapor]

This whole thread confused me back when it got posted. And I got reminded of it after posting something in another thread. Labbing some stuff has made me confused.
Banshee dmg per swing: 35 (power melee)

Attacking a tactical squad: 27-28 damage per swing in the lab.
Which would be supported by 35*0.6(melee resistance)*1.3(power melee) = 27,3
And not by 35 - 14(40%melee resistance) + 10,5(30%power melee) = 31,5

But then on retreat ~40damage per swing.
Which would be supported by 35-14(40%melee resistance) + 10.5(30%power melee)+ 10.5(30%retreat) = 42
And not by 35*0,6*1,3*1,3 = 35,49
Nor by 35*0,6*1,3*1,3*0,85 = 30,1666...
(0,85 retreat damage modifier banshees should have)

Can anyone provide a clear answer here and preferably some proof? :p

The correct way is the multipliers. adding and resting makes no sense in that case because what you're doing is this:

dmg -40%dmg +30%dmg or dmg*(1 +.3 -.4). This formula only applies to stacked buffs of the same type, but not for independent instances of damage calculations

For example, let's say vanguard are being buffed by FTE, FC banner, and battle cry and they are attacking some tzeench marines which have melee resist and heavy armor

raw damage = basedmg*(1 + 0.25 + 0.25 + 10) = basedmg*1.60

final damage (the one that tzeentch marines will take) = rawdmg*0.6*1.3 = rawdmg*0.73 = basedmg*1.6*0.73 = basedmg*1.248


The reason why it is like this is because if not, TG under basic syanpse lvl 4 would be completely inmune to piercing damage (-70% from super heavy - 31% from syanpse)

Or vehicle armor type with melee resist (SL, nurgle predator) would be totally inmune to power melee and take only 10% from melee_heavy. And none of these statements is true

Wait so my original post was right all along?

[Dark Riku]

I think it works like that too Bahamut. But the numbers don't add up for me.
I'm going to wait on what Lulgrim has to say when he finds some spare time.

[Vapor]

I think it works like that too Bahamut. But the numbers don't add up for me.
I'm going to wait on what Lulgrim has to say when he finds some spare time.

What are your numbers? I wouldn't mind doing some testing if you'd like.

[Asmon]

We cannot forget that abilities that reduce ranged damage heal the units that are shot (at least in retail), which should not be the case with only multiplier factors.

[Dark Riku]

What are your numbers? I wouldn't mind doing some testing if you'd like.

You can find them on previous posts...

We cannot forget that abilities that reduce ranged damage heal the units that are shot (at least in retail), which should not be the case with only multiplier factors.

^This!
Same how 50%snare + 50%snare = 100%snare and not 75%snare.

[Torpid]

Everyday I realise more and more just how silleh this game is

[M4573R_CH13f]

This whole thread confused me back when it got posted. And I got reminded of it after posting something in another thread. Labbing some stuff has made me confused.
Banshee dmg per swing: 35 (power melee)

Attacking a tactical squad: 27-28 damage per swing in the lab.
Which would be supported by 35*0.6(melee resistance)*1.3(power melee) = 27,3
And not by 35 - 14(40%melee resistance) + 10,5(30%power melee) = 31,5

But then on retreat ~40damage per swing.
Which would be supported by 35-14(40%melee resistance) + 10.5(30%power melee)+ 10.5(30%retreat) = 42
And not by 35*0,6*1,3*1,3 = 35,49
Nor by 35*0,6*1,3*1,3*0,85 = 30,1666...
(0,85 retreat damage modifier banshees should have)

Can anyone provide a clear answer here and preferably some proof? :p

The correct way is the multipliers. adding and resting makes no sense in that case because what you're doing is this:

dmg -40%dmg +30%dmg or dmg*(1 +.3 -.4). This formula only applies to stacked buffs of the same type, but not for independent instances of damage calculations

For example, let's say vanguard are being buffed by FTE, FC banner, and battle cry and they are attacking some tzeench marines which have melee resist and heavy armor

raw damage = basedmg*(1 + 0.25 + 0.25 + 10) = basedmg*1.60

final damage (the one that tzeentch marines will take) = rawdmg*0.6*1.3 = rawdmg*0.73 = basedmg*1.6*0.73 = basedmg*1.248


The reason why it is like this is because if not, TG under basic syanpse lvl 4 would be completely inmune to piercing damage (-70% from super heavy - 31% from syanpse)

Or vehicle armor type with melee resist (SL, nurgle predator) would be totally inmune to power melee and take only 10% from melee_heavy. And none of these statements is true

i don't think it goes like that. in fact, imma try it out with that stupid lascannon-example. you can definitely see the result there, since the different buffs are so high. when i experimented with nobs, they definetlly did more than twice their damage, which they would when summnig up the multipliers.

[Uncle Milty]

Regarding the melee resist aura at retreat:


I read it this way:
The ability will be activated instantly when those sqauds get deployed.
The ability cannot be activated while retreating. (is already active anyway)
The ability does not stop on retreat.

[Lulgrim]

I intend to lab this with heavily modified units but here's something I observed while trying to fix Hormagaunt/Termagant modifiers.

When Hormagaunts are affected by their T2 buff (1.05 * health), T3 buff (another 1.05 * health), and melee synapse (1.6 * health) they gain 640 --> 1088 hp. This means:

640 + (0.05 * 640) + (0.05 * 640) + (0.6 * 384) = 1088

and not

640 * 1.05 * 1.05 * 1.6 = 1128.96

as the stuff I edit would imply (it says "multiplication" and "1.05", for example).

[Bahamut]

Yeah lulgrim, all those 3 modifiers increase the hp of the base hp pool of the hormagaunts. However, adrenal glands does modify that base value so it ends up like

640*1.1*(1+0.6+0.05+0.05) = 640*1.1*1.70 = 1088*1.1 = 1196 hp

Tho, i got to that conclusion by labing. I can't find anywhere on the .modules where those modifiers are actually applied