Flesh Hook on leaders that die last

[Forestradio]

I was playing a 3v3 as Lictor Alpha vs whitehead (he plays GK) and even though he curbstomped me pretty bad with better micro, etc, I pulled off something pretty trolololol OP in that match:

Namely, flesh hooking inquisitorial storm trooper sergeants that die last.

I wiped two trooper squads with nothing more than a simple point and click (flesh hook, a starting ability) and then having my adrenal gland gaunts OMNOMNOM the sergeant until the squad died.

This is also obviously a problem vs scout sergeants, AC tics, and to a lesser extend, guardsmen (who have more health and might get away)

Anyway we can prevent these squad leaders from being flesh hooked (remove the knockback but not the damage)? Some kind of modifier on them that only affects the flesh hook ability and doesn't change anything else?

[FiSH]

A decrease in the pull strength of flesh hook was suggested, and many people have deemed it good solution.

[Ace of Swords]

It's a problem on ALL squad leaders, but especially on die last ones, just make this ability a knockdown instead of pull.

[Broodwich]

Yeah its pretty broken, changing to even half the pull strength would be reasonable.

[Torpid]

I initially thought such a drastic change to flesh hook such as simply making it cause knockdown, or a stun (which would retain it's strength vs heroes) would break the LA due to how reliant he is on it.

That said, after playing about 5 or 6 games today with noisy today between my nids and his CS it was clear the LA is OP. My HT stood pretty much no chance, yet my LA actually grabbed a couple of wins off of him and faired pretty much equally.

How can a damn hero make such a colossal difference? To reiterate it went form absolutely no chance, game over in 5mins, to balanced MU, good 20mins+ games. Clearly something is broken with the LA here and two things are blatant. Firstly flesh hook is way way way too strong. Hooking leaders just shouldn't be allowed, it's way too abusive, hooking heroes and subcommanders is strong, but I think that should still have a significant effect because it's kinda essential to the 'assassin' function for the LA, same applies to his ability to wipe single models in retreat. The other problem with the hook that really stands out and is ridiculously abusive is hooking set-up team members. You have two natural counters to suppression, infiltration forces choices they otherwise wouldn't want to get (that AC tic costs the same amount of power as a havoc essentially, that's one reason the HT struggles so much in comparison, he's fighting twice as many havocs at any time) and of course hooking set-up team members then ignoring the hooked member is just silly since it takes the team out of the engagement for ages. Making FH only stun the affected model would probably be a good change.

The other problem is feeder tendrils. They do way too much for their price. Without them the LA is really vulnerable to melee squads and he isn't half as strong on his own. With them, for 25 power,he becomes more than twice as strong in combat, is able to solo pretty much all t1 squads with significant bleed and just generally gains too much combat performance. It is currently 110/25, I think a increase to 120/30 would be justified.

[SirSid]

are flesh hooks very strong ? yha 100% for sure they are nuts same with fedder tendrials .

But removing ether would probley break the LA in a bug hurry.

IDK how to fix him ? ? half pull may help but just that may break him, the reason y flesh hook is so usefull with feder tendrials is u get instant life leach once used. so half pull would stil break that war gear.

If u are playing against a LA u have to spot him then he is weak and get's primaryed down before he can get into range and he is useless, however take SM race thare detector is a last to die commander , getting him is a risk if he gets hooked in a bad spot into other nid melley units whipe with a full HP retreat could happen .

IDK how to fix him

[Raffa]

It is currently 110/25, I think a increase to 120/30 would be justified.

120/35 and stick it in T2 while you're at it. How you get a 61 dps power melee weapon (what's that like ~82 vs HI?) with a self heal, which counters his vulnerability of low hp and means units such as heretics, sluggas and hormas are absolutely useless against him, in Tier 1 is beyond me.

Pretty much agree with Torpid.

[Indrid]

LA's weapons are pretty nuts atm.

[sk4zi]

cant you just make the leaders not targetable by the fleshhook?

thats the fix.

[Lag]

No it isn't because it is still stupid against heroes and sub-commanders, pulling them in into an army...

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

If you change the pull effect of the Flesh Hook for a stun (for example) you are going to reduce his effect on high hp low model squads.

I see make flesh hook no usable on die last squads leaders the best choice.

[Torpid]

If you change the pull effect of the Flesh Hook for a stun (for example) you are going to reduce his effect on high hp low model squads.

I see make flesh hook no usable on die last squads leaders the best choice.

I don't think that will be sufficient. Hooking things like warriors/zoans/weirdboys/asm/tacs and gibbing em with horms is too strong imo, especially for a default ability. Maybe one of his wargears could grant the pull effect on top of the stun, or in place of it - maybe the toxin miasma wargear - as that thing snares a single model and does DOT on it too, so it seems like it was made for sniping subcommanders/heroes/tough models, but at the moment it just lacks the raw damage to make it worth getting over feeder tendrils in most cases.

Also hooking set-up teams is bullshit. Squad leaders aren't the only problem.

[Raffa]

Also hooking set-up teams is bullshit. Squad leaders aren't the only problem.

Lictor Alpha is craaaazy. Does anyone else think Flesh Hook is a T3 ability that looks like it was toned down and shoehorned into a hero? I would redesign certain things entirely, and I'm curious to see what people think:

1. Replace Flesh Hook with a less bullshit ability but still gives Lictor some usefulness - don't want this hero just to vanish altogether.
2. Feeder Tendrils: cost increase from 110/25 to 130/40, and move to T2.
3. Menacing Visage: remove this as for the life of me I cannot see how it is fair for you to pay 150/50 and be able to cancel nobs or any other non-termie unit in every single engagement. Replace it with a wargear that gives Flesh Hook back at normal Lictor strength (180 damage instead of 140).

IMO this gets rid of all the bullshit, but still leaves room for all the strong builds he currently has.

[Ace of Swords]

A little cost increase on feeder tendrils + a change from a % hp heal to a fixed low number will be enough, that way it will still be strong in T1 but won't be able to carry the LA through the whole game, and it will most likely require the LA to swap weapon later.

[Bahamut]

A little cost increase on feeder tendrils + a change from a % hp heal to a fixed low number will be enough, that way it will still be strong in T1 but won't be able to carry the LA through the whole game, and it will most likely require the LA to swap weapon later.

2% is not as much as you think, even if the LA has 900hp (about lvl 3 and deadly jump armor) he'll only heal 18hp per attack, at lvl 10 with deadly jump armor he has about 1200hp, which is 24 hp per attack

IMO would be better to put this weapon in t2 instead

[Sub_Zero]

Maybe one of his wargears could grant the pull effect on top of the stun, or in place of it - maybe the toxin miasma wargear - as that thing snares a single model and does DOT on it too

Good idea. That effect should definetely go with this weapon.

3. Menacing Visage: remove this as for the life of me I cannot see how it is fair for you to pay 150/50 and be able to cancel nobs or any other non-termie unit in every single engagement. Replace it with a wargear that gives Flesh Hook back at normal Lictor strength (180 damage instead of 140).

Here is the same trick as with the Flesh over steel. As long as you keep your unit in movement the ability won't trigger. And while the LA trying to force your unit off you just shoot or stab him to hell. However I don't mind some reworking. This might be a 2 times better bloodcrusher's fearsome roar (or how it is called?) but on a single unit or a hero/subcommander. But the cost should be reduced if we are gonna make it so and have to bring it back to T2 probably.

[Uncle Milty]

A little cost increase on feeder tendrils + a change from a % hp heal to a fixed low number will be enough, that way it will still be strong in T1 but won't be able to carry the LA through the whole game, and it will most likely require the LA to swap weapon later.

2% is not as much as you think, even if the LA has 900hp (about lvl 3 and deadly jump armor) he'll only heal 18hp per attack, at lvl 10 with deadly jump armor he has about 1200hp, which is 24 hp per attack

IMO would be better to put this weapon in t2 instead

I think you underestimate both his attack speed and his Lone Hunter.

[ThongSong]

I hate how flesh hook can instakill scouts even in retreat. it feeds soooo much xp to the LA. even if you retreat the moment the LA appears, there's always a good chance he can nail a scout model from the edge of the ability's range

[crazyman64335]

here's a replay of the current balance of the LA, and nids in general. This is a problem FYI

ps. vs none other than riku, fresh off his tourny win

[Faultron]

flesh hook is tier 4 ability u cant avoid it and this is the problem no counterplay at all(only focus fire or energy shields with kb immunity)
i dont know how this ability is in the game still, it is op since forever (more op then warpthrow was before nerf)


-the ability is point target, this is 1 of the main problem here-easy to land 100% no counterplay and it is the strongest shit in the game from lvl 1 tier 1...
-you need a detector unit to reveal stealthed lictor makes the problem even bigger,+ even if u have detector it doesnt help u at all...nonsense(not to mention eldar here how shit rangers are vs nids in combat effectiveness)

i know u may hate me saying this but just compare to Dota,hero Mr. Pudge xD
Pudge hook is strong if u dont buy wards and if u dont stay behind object to protect urself, or having magic immunity in skill or item
so in dota u can counter pudge, in dow 2 we cant counter lictor lack of these things, we cant counter play.

choosable solutions in dow 2 elite since we cant add magic immunity and other stuff

1.remove damage on fleshook or just 50 dmg on hit
make the hook ability line area targeted not point click (this is must, not even pudge has point click hook...) and make the ability easy to spot so we can react and runaway sometimes to avoid it(cast time increase)

2.if we cant do this
just make KB or stun effect instead of pull (HQ lictor as well)

3. very long cast time and everything remains the same(point click or aoe target) but still change some wargears, so u can gib him fast before hook lands.
this is the worst i think:) (or range nerf)

+remove stealth if we dont make any changes for the rest of the wargears , but not from HQ lictor
if we dont remove stealth which i expect, nerf some wargears.Or atleast put CD on toggling

easy:)

[Dark Riku]

(not to mention eldar here how shit rangers are vs nids in combat effectiveness)

Making synapse bombs explode, big sight range, shotgunblast across the map aren't exactly bad things to have vs nids ~~

[Torpid]

Still shit compared to more suppression vs nids, however rangers are useful in t2 vs zoans, but just not so much in t1 when you need to hold them off from your power and you need 2x suppression.

[Bahamut]

synapse backslashes are the way to easily defeat a nid blob. I agree with rikku, rangers and snipers are quite effective in that job

[Faultron]

Still shit compared to more suppression vs nids, however rangers are useful in t2 vs zoans, but just not so much in t1 when you need to hold them off from your power and you need 2x suppression.

yes this is why i said rangers are bad buy, and even if u buy them in tier 2 it is not so good cos of no lvl progressed from tier 1.

[M4573R_CH13f]

to say something about the la again:
i think not only the tendrils are nuts, but also those scything tallons. they bring him a good ability as a melee counter, although it is not as strong as the tendrils against kiting units, but he is able to kill any t1 squad with this, because of the ability and 84 dps!!!!!!! power melee. in t1. that should say all right there.

[Arbit]

How can a damn hero make such a colossal difference? To reiterate it went form absolutely no chance, game over in 5mins, to balanced MU, good 20mins+ games. Clearly something is broken with the LA here and two things are blatant.

I've also experienced the "equalizing" effect of the LA. I haven't played nids in 6+ months and just jumping into 3v3s with him I perform about as well as I do after two months or so of solid practice with the TM. It's pretty ridiculous.

Firstly flesh hook is way way way too strong.

I know this isn't a popular opinion, but the only way to make the ability "fair" is to give the player a chance to respond before getting hooked. This means shortening the range of the ability to less than the standard detector range of 25. Yes, that's going to be a pretty short range ability. It would still be a good disruption ability, good for finishing off kill-able squad leaders, good for killing the last model as it retreats out of melee. He would probably need a buff, either in HP, ability cooldown, energy cost, or even giving him something nifty like a passive knockback leap like the warlock/HQ lictor.

Moving the ability to T2 isn't going to help. Hooking a scout sarge and flinging him into a swarm of horms is bullshit no matter what tier it's in.

A stun may be workable but consider it would be very Hammer of the Witches-like, in addition to not looking quite right.

A faceplant may be too much of a nerf and it would definitely look ridiculous.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i think flesh hook is actually very comparable to HotW. the heroes are similar in that they're both weaker heroes and both have single target disruption abilities as their starting point. (obviously there are a lot of other differences such as race.) HotW was bullshit when first released. i think it had something like 40 range, was nearly instant, and did quite a chunk of damage. let the inq counter a setup team by herself. i don't think anyone thinks the ability is op anymore. i would personally consider it a little up but i don't have enough experience with either side of it. i know the range of HotW was reduced although i'm not sure what else was touched. making similar changes to a similar ability that is over preforming seems like a good starting point to me.

[Arbit]

You could balance it around it being a HotW-alike but I actually like the mechanic of fleshhooks i.e. drawing off a high value target and killing it in melee.

edit: In case it wasn't clear, when I said it would be similar to HotW, it wasn't to say it would be OP or UP, just that it would diminish the uniqueness of HotW. FWIW I think HotW is balanced now that is has a sizable delay and shorter range, and it was definitely crazy when is was super long range (in addition to countering snipers, HWTs, etc you could snipe low HP heroes or 1 model squads like crazy).

[Forestradio]

Here's a lulzy idea:

Make the flesh hook do some damage to the lictor alpha himself. Like around 50 or so damage. Would really hurt his field presence, and also means that if he's surrounded in melee, using flesh hook right before retreating is really risky.

There's even a lore-based reason: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Flesh_H ... p6FLcRDs3E

"Flesh Hooks are sharp barbs attached to long, sinewy tentacles, which are kept coiled close to the Lictor's rib cage, until they are fired by a powerful muscle spasm."

I'd imagine that firing flesh hooks at someone with a muscle spasm is pretty painful even if you're a giant evil space bug.

[SirSid]

I think u guys are blowing it up way to much.


Flesh hook is a pain in the ass to fight and is very usefull to have on your side.


But so is let the galaxy burn, warp through, kill the weak , mark of zyntch ect. the list could be very long.


Flesh hook dose not need a huge nurf. hell im not even 100 % sure it needs a nurf at all. It's the changes to the nid army that are making the LA fleesh hooks stand out more ATM And the fact way more people are playing nids then ususal.


Try using the LA with no use of flesh hook for a few games. Will show how weak he can be if your opponent is copentent vs nids .


Latley i find when im playing nids my opponent just get's over run by the army not my commander. now when this happens this makes the commander free to do what he wants especialy the LA since he is much more usefull on field presence if he is not forced to carry the army. So id say it's less of a fleesh hooks problem and more a a problem with the fact that in the past a LA had to carry the nid army well into t2, however now he is not forced to do that witch by nature makes him much more dangrous since he will not be retreating and can use what ability when he wants and whare he wants.

The nid army is holding it self up just fine ATM . Remember back in retail how for like 6 mounths evrey 1 thought the hive tyrant was just brokenly OP cuz holy hammer was smashing with him and evrey other nid player was getting his ass kicked ? that's cuz the nid army had to be held up by thare commander to stand a chance , this is not the case now so the leaders ( the LA especialy ) has become more usefull by defult.

I think it's being blow out of propotion a bit. The flesh hook can win u games yes , but the lictor alpha hero can losse yha a game to if he is contained and dealt with.