Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential

[Raffa]

I find it alright as it is.

Feels more like a general eldar hate-type thread that pops up every once in a while.

Ow snap really? Maybe from time to time yes but dude Eldar players agree here...if you really don't want to change banshee charge that's fine but please explain why the 0.85 modifier was the one you chose because to me it seems like the easy way out which hasn't really worked.

If you have a basic rule (in this case melee damage of units is increased on retreat by 30%, and not adjusted otherwise) and there is one single unit that rule does not work for, then don't you think there is probably a problem with the unit?

Banshees are the only squad with a 0.85 modifier on their basic retreat damage. To me that says you saw they were overperforming as standard, and came to the conclusion that their damage on retreating hits was too high. I don't think that was ever the problem. It was how they could chase forever and get an unreal amount of hits in, whilst making up a huge amount of map for power bashes/flanking/etc..

I think any other unit would be considered damn good retreat chasers if they could chase at speed 8.5 like Banshees (9 with Exarch) and that is assuming the Banshees did not have a charge; the thing is even after a huge distance they are still moving faster than retreating units.

They should punish you for retreating when they are close like any other melee unit, and they should do it the best because they are Banshees and that is how these bitches roll. However they don't need an awesome charge which lets them stay close and get a stupidly large amount of hits in.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

pretty sure WSs have a damage reduction on retreat

[Faultron]

not to mention the damage modifier doesnt do anything with units who cant retreat
but i think banshees are only problematic with warlock now in T1,
Thats why also i suggested the warlock global change in the other topic.
so as torpid mentioned like many times warlock is the only problem and not eldar army, i am on the same opinion

[Lulgrim]

pretty sure WSs have a damage reduction on retreat

IIRC they do and I kind of find this unsatisfactory (breaking a basic rule) as well -- I would rather say their DPS is too high for their mobility, and/or they are too easy to get in multiples, a more elegant solution would be more satisfying design-wise.

[Dark Riku]

I find it alright as it is.

Feels more like a general eldar hate-type thread that pops up every once in a while.

Global FoF is not fine with banshees. I know for sure Codex & Toilailee think so too. I believe Toil says something along the lines of: "You need to retreat from banshees with more than 80%HP or die." which is actually sadly true for some units :/
Unless they changed their opinion on the matter as of late.

I'm also interested to see how the modifiers work. Cuz atm nothing makes sense.
I see no difference in banshee retreat damage at all. Nor does any calculation support that they actually have that reduced damage on retreat. Awaiting Lulgrim.

[Caeltos]

I really do not want to touch on any statistical values that effect their overall combat effiency. I've said this before, and I'm not going to go back on my word.

[Torpid]

@ Riku, nobody likes the warlock...

[Pandemic]

I'm not sure of the final effectiveness but the idea was that if you retreat from shees or run through them in reteat they'd have only a limited time to actually deal any damage. Right now they deal reduced damage but have relatively long time for it. So if a change was made it would demand the Eldar player had a better positioning and thus reduce the number of retreat wipes that aren't earned by a good play. Again, that is how I imagined it.

Pretty much this.

It's fine for banshees to kill units in retreat, but no way should it be okay to chase a unit and wipe it because they use their abilities and race globals to chase units across the entire. goddamn. map. the 60% less damage doesn't mean much when they get 8x or more the amount of hits in that other units would get on retreating squads.

[xerrol nanoha]

Question: Does global warlock FOF also reduce damage dealt? or it that only standard squad FOF?

In what order do the damage multipliers come into effect?
I.e. retreat damage vulnerability and FOF damage reduction.

[Kvek]

Question: Does global warlock FOF also reduce damage dealt? or it that only standard squad FOF?

In what order do the damage multipliers come into effect?
I.e. retreat damage vulnerability and FOF damage reduction.

Global doesn't reduce damage.

[David-CZ]

In what order do the damage multipliers come into effect?
I.e. retreat damage vulnerability and FOF damage reduction.

It doesn't actually matter. If a unit has let's say 100 DPS then its damage would be multiplied by 1.3 on retreating units and then by 0.7 while the FoF is active. That makes it 100 * 1.3 * 0.7 = 91. Now because of the mathematical principals it doesn't matter in what order you multiply numbers. So you get 91 even if you multiply 100 by 0.7 and 1.3 afterwards.

[Dark Riku]

If only DoW2 would work as logical as that...

[Faultron]

pretty sure WSs have a damage reduction on retreat

IIRC they do and I kind of find this unsatisfactory (breaking a basic rule) as well -- I would rather say their DPS is too high for their mobility, and/or they are too easy to get in multiples, a more elegant solution would be more satisfying design-wise.

wse commander also the unit have full damage as normal.
banshee is on 0,85 i just checked it

[Dark Riku]

wse commander also the unit have full damage as normal.
banshee is on 0,85 i just checked it

"I just checked it" doesn't quite cut it for me.
I hope you don't mean you just checked the patch notes ...
I labbed it and nothing indicates shees actually have that 0.85 modifier.

[Raffa]

I labbed it and nothing indicates shees actually have that 0.85 modifier.

wat

[Dark Riku]

I labbed it and nothing indicates shees actually have that 0.85 modifier.

wat

Banshee dmg per swing: 35 (power melee)

Attacking a tactical squad: 27-28 damage per swing in the lab.
Which would be supported by 35*0.6(melee resistance)*1.3(power melee) = 27,3
And not by 35 - 14(40%melee resistance) + 10,5(30%power melee) = 31,5

But then on retreat ~40damage per swing.
Which would be supported by 35 - 14(40%melee resistance) + 10.5(30%power melee)+ 10.5(30%retreat) = 42
And not by 35*0,6*1,3*1,3 = 35,49
Nor by 35*0,6*1,3*1,3*0,85 = 30,1666...
(0,85 retreat damage modifier banshees should have)

Can anyone provide a clear answer here and preferably some proof? :p

Nor by 35 - 14(40%melee resistance) + 10.5(30%power melee)+ 10.5(30%retreat) - 5,25(0,85modifier) = 36,75

So yeah in non of the cases does it add up.

But Lulgrim was gonna look into it once the poor man finds some free time that he wants to spend on this. Others feel free to help on this as well.

(Tip for getting good numbers: makes she squad lose all but 1 model, no upgrades, use warlock channeling runes. put warlock behind LoS blocker.)

[Raffa]

Nor by 35 - 14(40%melee resistance) + 10.5(30%power melee)+ 10.5(30%retreat) - 5,25(0,85modifier) = 36,75

So yeah in non of the cases does it add up.

LOL.

So let me get this straight: all this time banshees never actually got the tweak which was supposed to fix their retreat killing rapeness? o.O

[David-CZ]

Well, that's a good thing to know. Since neither change has been made yet I'd prefer the implementation of charge nerf if possible.

[Arbit]

This is a bit bizarre but it's the only way I could get it to come out to ~40 damage per swing

35 * 0.6 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 35.49
Now add 35 * 0.15 = 5.25
You come up with 40.74

So perhaps rather than the retreat modifier reducing the total to 85%, it's adding 15%.

But if you look at the grenade modifier (link) it's 4.5 and that seems to work OK. Maybe the "damage to retreating" modifier causes unpredictable behavior if it's less than 1?

edit: it seems like the modifier works OK for the ranged damage on warpspiders, so that's probably not it. Maybe a typo?

[Faultron]

wse commander also the unit have full damage as normal.
banshee is on 0,85 i just checked it

"I just checked it" doesn't quite cut it for me.
I hope you don't mean you just checked the patch notes ...
I labbed it and nothing indicates shees actually have that 0.85 modifier.

i checked in module file

[Vapor]

I labbed it and nothing indicates shees actually have that 0.85 modifier.

wat

Banshee dmg per swing: 35 (power melee)

Attacking a tactical squad: 27-28 damage per swing in the lab.
Which would be supported by 35*0.6(melee resistance)*1.3(power melee) = 27,3
And not by 35 - 14(40%melee resistance) + 10,5(30%power melee) = 31,5

But then on retreat ~40damage per swing.
Which would be supported by 35 - 14(40%melee resistance) + 10.5(30%power melee)+ 10.5(30%retreat) = 42
And not by 35*0,6*1,3*1,3 = 35,49
Nor by 35*0,6*1,3*1,3*0,85 = 30,1666...
(0,85 retreat damage modifier banshees should have)

Can anyone provide a clear answer here and preferably some proof? :p

Nor by 35 - 14(40%melee resistance) + 10.5(30%power melee)+ 10.5(30%retreat) - 5,25(0,85modifier) = 36,75

So yeah in non of the cases does it add up.

But Lulgrim was gonna look into it once the poor man finds some free time that he wants to spend on this. Others feel free to help on this as well.

(Tip for getting good numbers: makes she squad lose all but 1 model, no upgrades, use warlock channeling runes. put warlock behind LoS blocker.)

I think it's:

Raw damage = 35
Base damage = 35*1.3 (power melee) = 45.5
Damage to tacs in combat: 45.5*{1 - 0.4 (melee resist)} = 27.3
Damage to retreating tacs: 45.5*{1 - 0.4 (melee resist) + 0.3 (extra melee dmg to retreating units)} = 40.95

So everything makes sense if the banshee 0.85 retreat modifier isn't working for some reason. Did you test on a melee unit that's not banshees to compare? I'll run some tests tonight to try to figure this out.

[David-CZ]

Wait, TSM have melee resist? I thought only melee units and Purgation Squad have it.

[Faultron]

the 0,85 modifier is in the file, but maybe doesnt work if bugged for whatever reason.

[Dark Riku]

Did you test on a melee unit that's not banshees to compare? I'll run some tests tonight to try to figure this out.

No. Only with shees vs tacs. The calculation there could very well be the right one! ^^ Thanks for helping out. I'm very time restrained atm.

Wait, TSM have melee resist? I thought only melee units and Purgation Squad have it.

Yes, Tacs and CSM have melee resistance.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

tacs, csm... setup teams don't but basic HI squads do.

[Codex]

Scouts as well.

Just had a thought: do channeling runes modify the damage output of squads? I seem to recall they did at some point. If that's the case it could explain the spike in damage? I don't recall using them uniformly throughout the lab.

[Dark Riku]

Just had a thought: do channeling runes modify the damage output of squads? I seem to recall they did at some point. If that's the case it could explain the spike in damage? I don't recall using them uniformly throughout the lab.

Original patch notes: "Channeling now also increases the target unit's damage by 15%" Herpyflurp It's not to be found on the site atm though, so I dunno what's going on anymore

[Faultron]

lol this is funny day:)

[xerrol nanoha]

Having incomplete entries for Elite mod changes makes research, by muggles such as myself, a challenge. Neither the codex:
http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?page=elite/codex
or the elite wiki page:
http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite
is close to being complete for 2.1

[Faultron]

we can find it here

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite/Warlock_%28hero%29