Chaos Space Marine Topic

[Asmon]

Heretics support is irrelevant since Nurgle whorship does not benefit vehicles. What was the reason for lowering the cost of the SM lascannon?

[Dark Riku]

Heretics support is irrelevant since Nurgle whorship does not benefit vehicles. What was the reason for lowering the cost of the SM lascannon?

Are you insane? Ofcource it's fucking relevant.
1 worhip cloaks the pred making it for a surprise attack or get away safely.
And the other boosts its speed.

The fudge.

[FiSH]

Maybe buff the nurgle worship a little bit to support vehicles then? It'd be nice to see some repair with worship (even if the repair rate is small)

[Codex]

Why? Why would anyone use tics for repair when they have an AOE repair?... Right now it's easy to victimise repairing tics sitting behind vehicles. I am not against giving PC worship something extra, (although I don't think it's necessary), I don't think a repair rate from worship would be a good idea.

And Riku, stay calm. I agree with you but there's no reason to start using expletives and such.

[Vinyl41]

maybe give if possible some damage reduction to vehicles only affected by nugle worship since nurgle is all about being tanky :]

[FiSH]

Why? Why would anyone use tics for repair when they have an AOE repair?... Right now it's easy to victimise repairing tics sitting behind vehicles. I am not against giving PC worship something extra, (although I don't think it's necessary), I don't think a repair rate from worship would be a good idea.

If we reason that the SM pred buff is because of the tics, then the plague champion is left at a sad spot. Some may argue, "well PC has repair" but so does the techmarine, and TM's pred being buffed is ok while PC's pred is not buffed? Doesn't seem fair to me.

The reasoning of "why would anyone use tics for repair when they have an AOE repair?" is almost the same as asking, "why would anyone purchase the breathe of nurgle when tics can worship to heal?" I never suggested that the AOE repair be as good as the actual repair, and it most definitely should not be.

[Codex]

I'm not going to comment on the lascannon upgrade because I don't have an opinion on that yet, I'm still thinking and want to consider the bigger picture.

The reasoning of "why would anyone use tics for repair when they have an AOE repair?" is almost the same as asking, "why would anyone purchase the breathe of nurgle when tics can worship to heal?" I never suggested that the AOE repair be as good as the actual repair, and it most definitely should not be.

I think that's a fallacious comparison. For one the Breath of Nurgle ability gives a big AOE heal at the cost of energy. Heal worship is a steady commitment from the tics. The main thing is the AOE heal would have to be very weak to be balanced, imo. Repair rate is 10 hp/s, and if the heal rate was 5 hp/s then it would be equally efficient to repair if you had 2 vehicles. However, 5 hp/s is negligible repair at best, and arguably you'd want it to be closer to 7.5 hp/s.

I just don't think that you could make the repair worship fit into the game without making it flat out better than repair in most combat situations, considering:

1. Tics won't have to expose them in the same way,
2. It's an AOE heal and can repair even moving vehicles, so won't have to chase this vehicle around or pathblock it.
3. You still retain the heal worship benefits on infantry.

[FiSH]

I absolutely agree that the AOE repair should be very weak if it is to be balanced, I was thinking more like 2~3hp/s. Also, I would have not suggested this if worship affected allies, because then even 2~3hp/s could add up. The reasoning for 2~3hp/s is, as you've pointed out, AOE repair is far superior to the actual repair. (even 5hp/s feels like a huge buff to nurgle worship, and I am not sure how this will synergize with the nurgle shrine either, but I'd have to see it in action to know)

[Codex]

Okay, so let's look at it this way:

In the Chaos metagame it is really uncommon to get more than 2 vehicles, taking into account CSM upkeep etc. Do note that Crusher can be repaired as well as worshipped, but we'll say that it's more efficient to worship him due to the energy increase.

I agree you should not be able to worship repair allies.

2-3 hp/s is very negligible on 1 vehicle. 2-3 hp/s is quite negligible on 2 vehicles, even, making for a total of 4-6 hp/s. This means that the only practical use I can see is to give worship a little extra for sitting at the back. HOWEVER.

In an ideal situation it would be best to focus fire a single target. This would make 2-3 hp/s very negligible, since you would not benefit from the double repair. It would only be a very small number of instances where it would be affect both vehicles (against lots of artillery or lascannon fire perhaps), but these do so much damage 2-3 hp/s on 2 vehicles is never going to make a significant difference. You would have to unworship anyway to repair!

So really the only practical use for this worship in fact is when the opponents lack strong AV. It would be good against vengeance round devs for example. But even then, it would be better to destroy them quickly and repair after or avoid the vengeance rounds altogether and come back when they are on cooldown.

[FiSH]

You also don't actually have to stop the worship, because the PC can repair.
When I suggested this worship, I had t-dread in mind. I think it will work pretty well with tcsm and tdread.

[Codex]

Why use heal worship when you can use double repair?

With TCSM and TDread, your key unit is your TDread, not your TCSM. If you sit the TCSM in cover and double repair your TDread you are in business.

I don't see how adding a repair worship changes the fact if you use heal worship it's for the TCSM and if you need repair double quick you unworship anyway.

[FiSH]

It's also not uncommon to see 2 vehicles and a nurgle shrine...
I do understand where you're coming from, and I agree that any decent player will focus fire on one target, but yet again, (assuming you have 2 dreads) you will probably move the injured vehicle back a bit and keep shooting, and AOE repair is great for that purpose.
Anyways, just some thoughts because the other two chaos heroes' worships are so much better for vehicle plays than PC's, and the recent discussion on the pred upgrades triggered me to these posts. I just wanted something that is not broken.

On a second thought.... Hmmmm.....
What if the Mark of Nurgle pred receives good repair (~15hp/s maybe?) bonus from nurgle worship? This will encourage people to get MoN pred more (which we rarely see), and it also fits the theme.

[Nurland]

Nurgle worship should grant some sort of buff to vehicles and some extra buff to daemons also. It is probably the worst scaling worship even when not considering the aforementioned shortcomings. That is only my opinion though.

[Vinyl41]

heya guys ive been playing some chaos recently and ive noticed that the health nerf on tics kinda doesnt pay off so good - while i understand that this got changed to balance their strong melee but this change made them kinda very wulnerable to some aoe pokes like the all so sommon WL that can 1 shot a 80% hp tics unit easily :/
i sugest buffing their health back to retail values with a price increase and lowering their melee by 2-4 they could regain some of their old damage back with the perchase of the AC

[Maestro Cretella]

I think tics are fine.







...but please make touch of nurgle available to all commanders as a unit ability with a 20 second cool down. =)

[FiSH]

I was thinking more about the whole nurgle worship thing, as well as touch of nurgle and so forth. It seems that nurgle worhsip scales bad because Plague champion's globals are (mainly touch of nurgle) very strong. As a proof, PC players don't seem to use any other global but touch of nurgle (and noxious cloud, but i think with the nerfs in elite, noxious cloud is in a good place).
That being said, it'd be nice if touch of nurgle was nerfed somewhat (nerf duration? heal? it'd be nice if it was toned down at a lower red cost, instead of being the insta-win button) and if nurgle worship scaled better to allow more options/different plays. Thoughts?

[PanKiller]

I think nurgle worship shouldnt repair vehicles , it would be either up or op . Instead it could give decay aura to vehicles ( similar as guo ) or damage reduction ( i would start with 10 % ) .

[Kvek]

Fish u can counter ToN with some KB etc. AoD is usually a win-button too

[Vinyl41]

ToN is fine 150 red for a very easy to predict global - oh look some lone tics charging head on my whole army i wonder what will they do >_> cloud is so much better but it costs 200 red PC is fine if you want to see some op shit try the bile gun for lots of wtf moments

[Kvek]

u are kidding right ? sweper isn't that great

[Indrid]

Nurgle worship was nerfed pretty hard in Elite, +0.5 to +0.35 regen iirc. Almost halved!

[PanKiller]

But at the same time sorc/pc/chaos lord got huge price buffs and wargear repair .

[Dark Riku]

Nurgle worship was nerfed pretty hard in Elite, +0.5 to +0.35 regen iirc. Almost halved!

-30% doesn't almost equal halved man :p ~1/3~

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

The Nurgle Workshipp was nerfed because it was very painfull to fight against 2 x CSM with/out Eternal War in heavy cover under Nurgle workshipp and see how your are doing almost 0 damage.

But i think it could be increased to the original +0.5 hp regeneration in T2 or T3.

[Vinyl41]

well i never trully understood why nurgle got nerfed and actually i think it wasnt needed because a 2 csm start ist so good in elite because there are sev far better options
i mean 2 csm is a common 3v3 start but then again we shouldn't balance the game on 3v3
i would personaly revert that change totaly but the proposed buff to its healing for t2 and t3 sounds good too

[Caeltos]

It got nerfed primarily because the 2x EW + 2x CSM start had an extremely strong pay-off, primarily cost-effiency of the whole in conjunction with one another. Baring in mind, that EW got a price cost which made it alot more practical for better timing potentials, means that you can apply harder-pressure, with less pressure taken during the nurgle healing functioning in the background.

It was pretty boring, and extremely tough to go up against during these times, and the early-games was fairly limited and one-sided. The lower-health regeneration allows for abit of better counter-pressure play from the opposite player, whilst still maintaining abit of the same flavor however, since the EW with regen from worship will still do just fine. It's more or less on the outside of heavy-cover it'll be more noticeable.

[Lulgrim]

Nurgay Worship always seemed a bit meh mid to late game, even at 0.5 regen. Just another random thought, but in regard to Worship scaling, I could make it so that when a player has shrines (anywhere on the map, or within 100 range, or 2+ shrines, or w.e) then Tic Worship could be more potent. This could (in theory at least) allow players to invest in a more Worship-centered play-style for late game if they want.

[Vinyl41]

shrines allready have that little extra heal every few seconds on top of reinforce shrines are good they dont need to be beefed up like gates and towers pls
maybe we could make that from t2 on nurgle worship could stack because the nerfed worship does little form t2 especialy when it does little to nothing to demons give back the staying power

[Raffa]

Need to do something bout Daemon Maul. It's replaced Reinforced Chitin as the least used upgrade in the game and it's a shame for such a great model. Increase dps to 60?

[Dark Riku]

Just because something isn't used "as much according to 1 source"
doesn't mean it should get buffed.