IG Balance Assessment

[Torpid]

Here's the run-down of generic IG things that are OP:

Artillery Spotters - Probably the most overpowered unit in the entire IG roster. The problem is as follows - the mortar shell can be used to instantly force off suppression by dropping it behind the squad. This effect doesn't solely occur to suppression so you can force off entire armies by dropping a mortar shell behind them. The knockback range needs to be severely reduced, it is beyond a joke. Knocking squads into the IG ranged blob in t2 forces them off literally instantaneously and the cooldown is horribly short on that ability, so by the next engagement you have it again.

Then after the mortar shell has forced off the suppression team you still have the smoke shell to make their entire ranged blob useless... and it affects vehicles. It shouldn't affect vehicles.

Basically this squad is doing too much for too cheap a price too early in the game and all the way throughout the game for no upgrade investment and it does it all while capping and never bleeding.

Solution: Mortar shell KB is reduced, smoke shell doesn't affect vehicles and both shells (including incendiary, which is likely the weakest, but still laughably strong) should cost 60 energy.

IEDs: Catachans are a really awkward unit, they're ranged damage is pretty crap for their price, their health and their range, but they get so many utility abilities, the unit is a tough one to balance but I feel it shouldn't force a detector when it soft counters suppression and hard counters melee/jump troops in t1. Something needs to be done to reduce the prevalence/strength of IEDs although I'm not sure what.

Heavy weapon team refractor shield upgrade: This upgrade initially doesn't seem too hot. However, it prevents suppression and prevents knockback. So if you have 2 autocannon heavy weapon teams and spotters and maybe a servo-skull for the extra sight radius or some stormtroopers who can infiltrate for sight range then nothing can come anywhere near those HWTs and they can lock down half the map with guardsmen+catachans running around capping everywhere else alongside a chimera. Essentially other arty and suppression is useless against the IG HWT come t2 and you need a jump troop but then jump troops are terrible against IG ithout suppression support, but they have two HWTs so nothing can support your jump troop, so they are isolated against entire armies and melt, this assumes they don't have assail, which makes matters way worse. Sure you double jump troops but then have ogryns and a chimera.

Solution: remove the shield upgrade, and swap it for a basic health upgrade, it can still be passive.

IG t3 is extremely strong, however I feel they need to really spend a lot in their t2 if they want to compete so the strength of the IG t3 isn't really an issue imo.

Inquistor
Assail - This is tremendously overpowered at the moment. 10 seconds complete immobilisation and I believe it still does a significant chunk of damage too, although it no longer suppresses, but the reason why is that she can cast it from a VERY long range and then run off and tie up your ranged blob/HOTW your hero/set-up team/melta pistol a vehicle. No, it needs to be channeled like it used to be. It's absurd that she can immobilise a jump squad from the other side of the screen then retreat. IG just do too much damage for this be balanced, the effect lasts too long at 10seconds.

Solution: It can retain the range as that's kind of the point of the ability, but it should be channeled so the inquisitor cannot counter entire armies herself and it should only last 7seconds like entangle of the WSE, rather than 10.

Bane wolf - This is quite the esoteric topic. This unit is godly. Whenever I field a bane wolf I win. But it costs red and is only effective in the early t2. IG don't enjoy hanging around in t1 for very long as t2 is their strongest tier. So often you find you simply never see a BW because IG cannot physically accumulate the red needed to get one. However recently the red cost was reduced to 150 from 200 and now you always see a bane wolf against any competent inquisitor and it massively over-performs. It's much stronger than a transport, it's actually stronger than a deff dread because it can snare entire armies leaving them to die from IG ridiculous ranged fire, it's very fast (speed 8!!!), it has no build time (IG already have a fast t1), it can wipe farms in a matter of seconds and it costs 40 power!

Solution: I said this is an esoteric topic because despite how OP it seems from that description (and it is), before it got its red cost reduced, it was very UP, because you simply couldn't get it at all. I like that the red cost is 150 because it makes it a much more viable unit, however given all of its amazing strengths and the facct that its highly superior to a chimera and has no build time and can raze farm as quick as it does, it needs a price increase. It should cost ~ 350r/65p/150 red. This would mean you actually have to consider buying it as you can dent your economy severely if you just lose it after razing one farm.

[Toilailee]

Well nothing you describe is particularly wrong. Just when you are talking about HWTs you describe them with an entire ig army support that by my count goes over 100 pop. Fully supported set up is supposed to be tough egg to crack. If it was just 2hwts without proper support it'd be easy to counter.

Banewolf is a complete troll in early t2 ye, and personally I didn't mind the 200 red cost it used to have.

You mostly speak from inq point of view, which is fine I guess, but as LG in 1v1s spotters are a liability since using them leaves you vulnerable to jump troops (which isn't as big of an issue for inq/cml that can get cheap power melee).


Imo the biggest cause of IG's opness still comes from sentinels and sent + gm synergy.

[Torpid]

I concur, I've spent the most time recently in 1v1 as the inq and the most time fighting IG where the IG played the Inq. I did try to think of some broken aspects of the LG/LC but I honesty can't find any. The sniper of the LG is amazing and all, but then it just exacerbates his problem with jump units. I honestly don't feel the LG was made for 1v1 anyway, we know how dumb relic are - they balanced the game around 3v3.

Regarding HWT, all it requires is 2x GM behind them + a chim vs one jump unit, or ogryns vs 2 jump units + inquisitor with assail/servo-skull, essentially this is impossible to crack, at least as chaos and i find a little bit unfair.

[Ace of Swords]

LC

Flare.

My only problem with the IG hwt shield is the fact that nades also do 50% less damage to it (the shield itself lowers by 50% the ranged damage taken by the squad) tbh that should go since it already provides kb immunity.

The rest is just fine imo.

[Kvek]

LC

Flare.

My only problem with the IG hwt shield is the fact that nades also do 50% less damage to it (the shield itself lowers by 50% the ranged damage taken by the squad) tbh that should go since it already provides kb immunity.

The rest is just fine imo.

Yeah, flare is just bs, basically wins every engagment for you and just for 75 red

[Forestradio]

one thing that needs looking at is the kommando nob vs IG matchup.

He literally counters their entire army, and weirdboy just makes it worse in T2.

speshul shoota + weirdboy basic attack+ zzap= dead IG squads.

[Torpid]

Nah inquisitor kicks K-nob ass, just get spotters + bane wolf. Easy.

tbh though, MUs will always be MUs.

[Ace of Swords]

one thing that needs looking at is the kommando nob vs IG matchup.

He literally counters their entire army, and weirdboy just makes it worse in T2.

speshul shoota + weirdboy basic attack+ zzap= dead IG squads.

Dunno about the Knob, it's a strong hero all around vs everyone.

[Bahamut]

If flare is OP then what's UYC/AB?.

I thought IG was supposed to be the weakest 1v1 race atm according to Torpid. Altho i would seriously remove the snare effect from banewolf's flamer

[Torpid]

They're much weaker when you aren't the inquisitor and recent changes have helped a lot. The bane wolf was a recent change as was the SUPER TURRET. I started using spotters more and realise they're completely overpowered and also I never knew assail worked while the inq was moving...

Moral of the story: Stop using catachans, they're terrible, as I've been saying for a while now. Abuse turrets, abuse spotters, abuse the inquisitor and the bane wolf and you're all good.

To be fair though, all the races are viable vs one another, the only problem is IG tend to have no really MUs, there's always something about every MU that kicks IG ass.

And how the hell does UYC/AB compare to flare? It only affects one squad which you can control with KB/suppression whereas flare instantaneously wipes the range of your entire army.

[Bahamut]

You can always move away from the flare as you can awalys use UYC with a squad that was flanking and gets squads in retreat, etc. My only problem with flare is that if you dont look at the animation from the very beginning you can't tell the difference between flare and a manticore's strike. But dunno, i wouldn't say flare is stronger than hellfury strike or crippling barrage or wasting red when you could use the strongest t3 nuke in the game...

[Sub_Zero]

the strongest t3 nuke in the game...

And that thing really needs fixing. You can't avoid it unless you react super quickly.

[Toilailee]

Moral of the story: Stop using catachans, they're terrible, as I've been saying for a while now.

qft

Any1 else getting déjà vus?

[Kvek]

You can always move away from the flare as you can awalys use UYC with a squad that was flanking and gets squads in retreat, etc. My only problem with flare is that if you dont look at the animation from the very beginning you can't tell the difference between flare and a manticore's strike. But dunno, i wouldn't say flare is stronger than hellfury strike or crippling barrage or wasting red when you could use the strongest t3 nuke in the game...

Can you shotgun blast a flare to counter it ?:P

[Sub_Zero]

Can you shotgun blast a flare to counter it ?:P

There are still ways to counter it. If your opponent uses it too early you just pull back and wait it out.

I personally never have problems with that thing. The flare doesn't reduce the range of your weapons to nil. It is still possible to win an engagement.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Can you shotgun blast a flare to counter it ?:P

There are still ways to counter it. If your opponent uses it too early you just pull back and wait it out.

I personally never have problems with that thing. The flare doesn't reduce the range of your weapons to nil. It is still possible to win an engagement.

The problem is that even if it doesn't reduce it to nil, it reduces it enough so that a ranged blob army like IG can overwhelm you with ranged fire power. Of course, if you've got a lot of melee, it makes no difference since the initial objective wasn't to engage en-range, but regardless. Perhaps still possible, but i'd eer on the side of very unlikely, if the flare is used properly.

Moral of the story: Stop using catachans, they're terrible, as I've been saying for a while now.

qft

Any1 else getting déjà vus?

Yeah, Catachans are just a ridiculous power dump in T1 with almost little added benefit. I think the only time I ever think about getting them is against a Lictor Alpha, and only if I know the player to be melee aggressive usually (shotgun blast and force him off from melee'ing my GMs)

[Torpid]

Guys I think you may be forgetting that as soon as the flare touches your units the effect stays on them even if they walk out of the initial effect radius and because it drops practically instantly it can heavily debuff your entire army in seconds leading to a won engagement vs anything that isn't melee and melee is a horrible option vs IG unless you are talking khorne marines.

So no, flare has no counter whatsoever, is practically unavoidable and only costs 75 red. Then again, warp throw does exactly the same but is an ability. That said I appreciate what Caeltos was saying the other time about some abilities just being designed retardly by Reric. Look at entangle. Why would you give an ability that completely immobilises a squad to a race which has DA (meaning many nades), WG and the best set-up teams? That's just so stupid. On another note how are you meant to defeat the 3x DA+2x SCP+mind war/entangle -> WL w/ BL build without exploiting bugs? At the moment if I don't wipe something in t1 I'm guaranteed to lose and that's a big ask, to necessitate wiping something.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Guys I think you may be forgetting that as soon as the flare touches your units the effect stays on them even if they walk out of the initial effect radius and because it drops practically instantly it can heavily debuff your entire army in seconds leading to a won engagement vs anything that isn't melee and melee is a horrible option vs IG unless you are talking khorne marines.

It's definitely not easy to go melee against IG, but it just requires a little micro'ing. Getting jump troop in coordination with your other melee units will ease a lot of pressure on troops running in by sending your jump troop ahead to peel pressure from the rest of your army. The minute you tie up one or two IG squads (especially in early engagements), you've got a good chance of wining the engagement. Of course, sentinels do well to counter that as well, so perhaps even that is still difficult.

[Torpid]

Raptors + 2x KCSM are an extremely strong IG counter, but that's when the multiple HWT+Chimera comes out I guess, if they can't get them out though because for some reason they got catachans in t1 for example, then they're screwed. However, I don't find melee with any other race viable against IG, except orks potentially due to the combination of a light t1 and stikks+webo in t2.

Sentinels are always going to cause massive trouble for melee though, as do GM in both t1 and t2 (here especially due to commissar execute to totally avoid being caught in melee) and then their leaders all have something to frighten off melee. LG bleeds them endlessly, LC has his power sword+aura of discipline and IQ has 60% of her wargears

[Vapor]

Look at entangle. Why would you give an ability that completely immobilises a squad to a race which has DA (meaning many nades), WG and the best set-up teams?

The thing is, the combo you mentioned isn't the only one of its kind, in fact I would say that combos and linking abilities together are a huge part of the fun factor in DoW2. The problem isn't that you can do things like entangle->nades (you should be rewarded for having all those units engaged and using up multiple abilities simultaneously), the problem is that grenades do such ridiculous damage that a single grenade hit can force a retreat on a squad. I think the game would be better in general if grenades and other AoE things did less damage (and were rebalanced accordingly, maybe with a bigger AoE).

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Comi alrdy has weak globals leave himbe. Ig need buffs if anything not nerfs

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Nobody mentions Kasrkins & Lord General flak jacket,not LC ? Especially the flak jacket, both Kinda preposterous . Flare is Fine, Arty spotters? i never experience problems with em,Basically they can shut down Range blobs & Set-ups Willingly . Most IG players goes for Cats/HWT duo or 3 GM 2 ST for their Unit composition i seen oftenly.

[Torpid]

As I said, I don't mind IG t3 being better than all the other races t3s (which it probably is ~ best mainline infantry, best tank, best super unit, best anti-infantry nuke, uber wargears such as purgatus/brokus), because IG rarely ever get to it since they need to spend so heavily in t2 if they want to survive. Man, I haven't got to t3 in about 15 1v1s with IG. Granted double kasr+double leman builds in 3v3 can be an absolute joke to fight, but you deserve it for playing 3v3

Flak jacket is fine too I think, if anything I'de complain about his bionic eye more, that thing is a little bit cray-cray, especially the first time he uses it, it's a near guaranteed set-up team wipe. I find flak jacket a really nice wargaer on the commy as IG has trouble dealing with subcommanders typically. The inq can HOTW and melta pistol and the LG can get his sniper and focus fire, the commy can execute.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

NSF, 3 gms, and a leman is pretty fucking ridiculous. you either attack the leman and destroy it through triple repair before being forced off or attack the commissar in the back of the blob. really not sure how to deal with it but i've only seen it once.

[Faultron]

NSF, 3 gms, and a leman is pretty fucking ridiculous. you either attack the leman and destroy it through triple repair before being forced off or attack the commissar in the back of the blob. really not sure how to deal with it but i've only seen it once.

Wraithguard:)

[Nuclear Arbitor]

plasma GM and the tank though ... you can't kill the tank before you have to retreat. maybe with the farseer and time slow.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

plasma GM and the tank though ... you can't kill the tank before you have to retreat. maybe with the farseer and time slow.

Surprisingly easy to wipe three gm's blobbed and repairing a single leman. They've got zero forms of of control if they're alone without any means of support. Plasma GMs will be doing less damage against eldar as well seeing as they hardly have any heavy infantry (plasma's should be hitting for 0.7x dmg which is why it's always silly when I see rushed plasma upgrades against LI armies like orks/IG/Eldar). You might have to have a unit take the brunt hit of the plasma shots from the executioner initially, but if you can get something in there to start wailing on those GM's, you'll force them off quick time, leaving the tank vulnerable.

Of course, if you're at a stand still trying to out dps IG in T3, you're silly for doing that and of course you'll be getting hit hard by that combo . Just wreck those GMs and their puny bayonets in close combat.

[Faultron]

plasma GM and the tank though ... you can't kill the tank before you have to retreat. maybe with the farseer and time slow.

i meant as eldar u cant beat IG T3 tanks without Wraithguard,(besides eldrich storm)
other tactics are just worse i think or not cost effective

[Nuclear Arbitor]

...

the problem is NSF though....

[HandSome SoddiNg]

plasma GM and the tank though ... you can't kill the tank before you have to retreat. maybe with the farseer and time slow.

i meant as eldar u cant beat IG T3 tanks without Wraithguard,(besides eldrich storm)
other tactics are just worse i think or not cost effective

Uh Doesn't Eldar has plentiful stuff to kill Tanks? Fire prisms/FD/Brightlance/Wraithguards/WL with BL addition to all those stacked buffs from FS/Warp throw/Phase shift into Storm on IG blobbies . So Oftenly Wraithguard being favored unit vs IG, Eldar has no shortage of AOE abilities/Set-ups to deal with IG