Terminators

[Sub_Zero]

I will write it like that. Maybe it will come into your mind.

SM lightning claws terminators and Chaos lightning claws terminators are equal in terms of damage output and health. But Chaos lightning claws terminators have better ability and cost 100 req less, models are reinforced cheaper (by 50 req) and they are available for each damn Chaos commander

If that sentence is not perceived then I just don't know why the thing we play is called balanced. What explains current state of things?

[xerrol nanoha]

If that sentence is not perceived then I just don't know why the thing we play is called balanced

You know that you're talking about terminators, right?
There was never anything balanced about terminators in general to begin with.
In the end, the only way this makes a remote difference is terminators VS terminators.

But joking aside, what would you do? You could increase the cost of lightning claw upgrade, but dynamically changing the reinforcement cost of chaos terminators is untasteful to say the least.

Also consider that Space Marine has many ways to reinforce units on the battlefield, and none of the unit documentation suggests that razorbacks, teleporter beacons, or the landraider redeemer are unable to reinforce terminators (although drop pods cannot).

This means that although reinforcing chaos terminators is economically cheaper, it is much more time consuming to take them all the way back to your HQ (unless some generous ally has a method of helping you) You're paying a different kind of price.

[Ace of Swords]

Chaos cannot reinforce on the field purely because heretics would be unstoppable from t1 to t3, you can see that with the circle of summoning, beside if a rb is alive that late in the game then you have lost way before (note: the rb cannot transport the termies around), and as far as 1v1s go, I have never seen termies + a LR that's just too much popcap (they would make up for basically half of your armie) and resources, and without LR support you have no reliable healing, not even with the apo unless it's very high level, I said that because you really don't want to reinforce more than a single sm termie every 3 or 5 minuts and that means walking back to the base to heal up, alot.

[Sub_Zero]

You think that is a big deal to bring down terminators? Not now. Eldar have dark reapers, orks have flash gitz, chaos tzeentch marines were not fixed, IG has tons of plasma. Space marines will struggle a bit though.

You could increase the cost of lightning claw upgrade, but dynamically changing the reinforcement cost of chaos terminators is untasteful to say the least.

I don't get and I won't get. Why is chaos allowed to reinforce same units (I would say better units) cheaper? Tell me this reason. It is really beyond me.

Also consider that Space Marine has many ways to reinforce units on the battlefield, and none of the unit documentation suggests that razorbacks, teleporter beacons, or the landraider redeemer are unable to reinforce terminators (although drop pods cannot).

Only in rare cases I will reinforce my terminators on the field. 90% of the time I try to preserve models.

This means that although reinforcing chaos terminators is economically cheaper, it is much more time consuming to take them all the way back to your HQ (unless some generous ally has a method of helping you) You're paying a different kind of price.

Do I need to say that Chaos can support their terminators better? Khorne worship and tzeentch worship. Both will help to get to the base easier. The Sorcerer can get a wargear for 100 / 20 to teleport his units wherever he wants to. He can use his global ability as well. And what can space marines do? The librarian? OK, good luck with him =)

I can't understand at all your points

ithout LR support you have no reliable healing, not even with the apo unless it's very high level

The Apo can support termies greatly with his 3rd armor. It will heal them faster than his 1st armor. Because you use both heals. Your primary heal and your area of effect heal. Heal allied infantry in radius 15 around the Apothecary for 2% of their maximum health per second.. So terminators have 4500 health and get healed for 90 hp each second. And each model receives that heal. This armor synergises very well with them.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Chaos cannot reinforce on the field purely because heretics would be unstoppable from t1 to t3, you can see that with the circle of summoning, beside if a rb is alive that late in the game then you have lost way before (note: the rb cannot transport the termies around), and as far as 1v1s go, I have never seen termies + a LR that's just too much popcap (they would make up for basically half of your armie) and resources, and without LR support you have no reliable healing, not even with the apo unless it's very high level, I said that because you really don't want to reinforce more than a single sm termie every 3 or 5 minuts and that means walking back to the base to heal up, alot.

Have to disagree with the bold part. It's true that heretic spam + Chaos Rhino could be a very dangerous combo, but it's quickly countered by a Dread or AOE or simply pimping up your commander with AOE damage/crowd control. Not mention the horrible bleed that could cause to the Chaos economy.

[Dark Riku]

Loyalist terminators are just being blown out of the water by their Chaotic counterparts. Making Loyalist terminators cost and reinforcement cost the same as their Chaos counterparts would be a good start.

They both have their traits. Chaos has the option to go for AV ranged weapon or LC's.
Arguably have a better effect on kill too. While Loyalist ones have more health.
Also being cheaper shouldn't be one of the traits. It's just too much.

Not to mention all the added counters to terminators Elite brought.

Also don't start with that SM's support for terminators is better because it's not.

[Torpid]

Yeah. The cheaper price is too much.The autocannon is such a good weapon... I don't like it, such strong AV on a SHI unit, SHI units aren't meant to be long-ranged AV?

[Bahamut]

thing with the auto cannon to me is that scales better than the assault cannon. And by scale i mean, one auto cannon might not be as good as one assault cannon, but 3 auto cannons are simply better at anything than 3 assault cannons

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I have no problem to increase the Chaos Terminator's cost and reinforce cost to the level of the loyalists Terminator. And remove the +20% hp of the Lighting Claws ... if you increase the Chaos Terminator health to 4500.

Then we have no problem, haven't we? LC Terminators are equal to LC Chaos Terminators in cost terms No more cheaper Chaos Terminators.

I'm not going to say that CT Autocannon (Reaper cannon) is a bad upgrade, but seriously isn't the ultimate weapon.

- Assault Cannon do Courage Damage. Can supress. Autocannon doesn't.
- Assault Cannon have 100% moving accuracy. Autocannon have 50%
- Both weapons have same range.
- Assault Cannon is better killing subcommanders and infantry, and can trigger easily their Inspiration. Autocannon is effective against HI/SHI/Vehicles. His lower DPS make the Demoralize effect trigger later. Still, his dps could increase if the enemy squad it's to tight. If not, the AOE damage isn't that good.

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... ult_cannon
http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... terminator

[Sub_Zero]

The only thing saves chaos terminators from being OP (or does it?) is the fact that they have 3750 hp. But having less HP they compensate that combining all three weapons of loyalist terminators in one weapon. The autocannon does pretty respectable damage to vehicles and it can be compared to the cyclone missile launcher (although it doesn't provide disruptive potential and has less damage potential to vehicles as well but more reliable than the cyclone missile launcher), the autocannon does good area of effect damage and it can be compared to the heavy flamer (of course it has a smaller area of effect but still can hurt pretty badly blobbed up squads from range) and the autocannon does good damage against all infantry types (the assault cannon loses here completely, it only does better job against commanders/subcommanders). But as I have mentioned before I was kinda ok with that weapon.

But in no way I am going to tolerate cheaper lightning claws terminators for each commander. What was the point of adding them? Copy-paste units are always a bad idea. And even worse when they are the same but have different cost. Chaos lacks melee units (heretics, khorne marines, blood letters, raptors, great unclean one)? Chaos lacks strong melee heroes (chaos lord, plague champion)? I don't know why Chaos was in need of cheaper and for-each-commander lightning claws terminators. Any explanation here? Either remove them completely or rework them (don't perceive it like my demand). Or at the very least make them balanced in terms of their cost.

- Assault Cannon do Courage Damage. Can supress. Autocannon doesn't.
- Assault Cannon have 100% moving accuracy. Autocannon have 50%

I would call that as minor bonuses. Not that often your accuracy on the move matters and not that often you can supress a squad before it retreats. It doesn't come into play that often to make a big difference.

- Assault Cannon is better killing subcommanders and infantry, and can trigger easily their Inspiration. Autocannon is effective against HI/SHI/Vehicles. His lower DPS make the Demoralize effect trigger later. Still, his dps could increase if the enemy squad it's to tight. If not, the AOE damage isn't that good.

Those 2 models still do high damage. And they kill weakened by the autocannon models of an enemy squad. And let's be honest there are no targets in the game that can feel safe from the autocannon fire while the assault cannon tickles vehicles and scratchs super heavy armored units.

[Bahamut]

- Assault Cannon do Courage Damage. Can supress. Autocannon doesn't.
- Assault Cannon have 100% moving accuracy. Autocannon have 50%
- Both weapons have same range.
- Assault Cannon is better killing subcommanders and infantry, and can trigger easily their Inspiration. Autocannon is effective against HI/SHI/Vehicles. His lower DPS make the Demoralize effect trigger later. Still, his dps could increase if the enemy squad it's to tight. If not, the AOE damage isn't that good.

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... ult_cannon
http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... terminator

Again 1 ass cannon > 1 reaper cannon. 3 ass cannon < 3 reaper cannons

One big example of this is the latest indrid's 2v2 cast of noisy where he had 3 chaos dreads with autocannons http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61UkZa09VSg

Just try telling me that noisy could of done the same with 3 ass cannon loyalist dreads

[Dark Riku]

Even 1 autocannon is better than 1 assault cannon.
Hello anti-all dmg?! Assault cannon is better vs (sub-)commanders. Big freaking whoop.

[Bahamut]

And the splash riku, don't forget the splash. That botters me even more than the dmg type

I mean, lets QQ about VC fex but lets give chaos something 2152386523866 times better.. cuase you know, it's chaos! has to be better than anything else

[Orkfaeller]

The Terminator mounted AutoC are imho vastly superior to their loyal counterparts.

Maybe if terminators had a barrage like the Dreadnought it would be the otherway around^^

[Sub_Zero]

Maybe if terminators had a barrage like the Dreadnought it would be the otherway around^^

Copy-paste is a bad way of creating units/commanders/abilities. But I wouldn't mind any kind of ability. But what can it be?

[Caeltos]

None.

[Sub_Zero]

Weirdly to see such a reply from you. From the guy who writes his posts very detailed usually. And what does it exactly mean? That we are incorrect? I would really love to see your reasoning about lightning claws terminators cost and why they were added initially. Copied-and-pasted basically.

[Caeltos]

I'm not fixing something that isn't broken.

Specialist vs Generalist upgrade.

Lightning Claw used to not grant the additional health at first, it wasn't liked, people wanted them to be more in line with their loyalist counterparts in terms of durability, so the health change was done.

and general eco-structure is why the reinf. cost is different from one another.

People are generally just to stubborn to not try to look into a unit on it's generalistic design and approach to the army composition they serve and utilize, instead they will direct and compare to other units with similiar traits, yet they are fundementally designed differently.

And of course, another scenario is we've got the typical X Faction defends their faction and Y defends their faction and they're throwing rocks at one another. A pointless debate that ultimately just reeks of bias, and it's tedious and boring to watch, and I'm just starting to rule out who's actually capable of providing legitimate and open-minded propositions and feedback.

Don't get that message wrong tho, I appriciate general propositions that are made. But I'm really tired of seeing the same god damn people giving factions lashback, and giving their own faction none in return, despite there are issues there as well. No faction is perfect, let's be clear on that, but some people just seem to think everything about A is bad, and everything about B, C, D, E are good.

Annoys the living shit out of me.

[Sub_Zero]

Ok I will try to ask my questions in order.

1) Why melee oriented terminators were added for each commander in the first place? How can it be explained? Why Chaos was in need of more melee units when there were a lot of them already?

2) When lightning claws chaos terminators and lightning claws loyalist terminators were equalized in terms of combat efficiency why their cost has not been adjusted? Heretics now are cheaper to reinforce, chaos marines have been cheaper to reinforce than tactical marines since forever. What bleed chaos req to justify the lower cost (-100 req to upgrade, -50 to reinforce a model)?

3) Do you as the creator of this mod tolerate such things as copy-paste units?

And now some thoughts about Chaos T3 overall. Chaos T3 has 2 superunits and two kinds of terminators (they were stolen from Space Marines and became better) and it has the tank with 3 different upgrades. And SM can only afford tzeentch mark for their tank and the land raider redeemer. And only one commander can get two kinds of terminators, one commander has no unique unit whatsoever and another commander can get the venerable dread. The unique unit of the Force Commander was donated to each chaos commander. And there will be no rest for me while this injustice exists.

[Caeltos]

Do yourself and read my post again. Your post just upsets me more, as you clearly didn't read my post, or didn't care what I had to say.

[Forestradio]

Even 1 autocannon is better than 1 assault cannon.
Hello anti-all dmg?! Assault cannon is better vs (sub-)commanders. Big freaking whoop.

use the cyclone missile launcher instead

It's amazing how few people actually know what this ability can do. I've played where people didn't even try to dodge it. Turns stuff like termagaunts, shootas, and guardsmen into pulp, and makes them easy targets for inspiration from the storm bolters.

[ThongSong]

aren't chaos terminators supposed to be using older, rustier crap than their shiny new counterparts?

[Caeltos]

aren't chaos terminators supposed to be using older, rustier crap than their shiny new counterparts?

The warp works in mysterious ways.

[Sub_Zero]

You responded like all politicians do. General words and no specifics. And yes I won't be trying to get answers yet again. Because the perspective to see a bunch of negative words does not appeal me at all.

P. S. And in regard being blind on my main faction's problems. I don't really think that space marines have stuff that is overperforming or unfair (with rare exceptions). When all races got new units space marines got an unreliable artillery piece and some really situational upgrades for units. And popular belief about strong SM T3 now doesn't seem adequate. And that is because of all the new units that can hurt terminators badly. And hey terminators are not exclusive anymore! But whatever...

[sk4zi]

aren't chaos terminators supposed to be using older, rustier crap than their shiny new counterparts?

they are but the have also demonic powers supporting them, which makes them even more powerful actually.

[Sneery_Thug]

and general eco-structure is why the reinf. cost is different from one another.

People are generally just to stubborn to not try to look into a unit on it's generalistic design and approach to the army composition they serve and utilize, instead they will direct and compare to other units with similiar traits, yet they are fundementally designed differently.

Would be appreciated, if you explain me, what "general eco-structure" means? Yes, I know that chaos units are averagely cheaper - but what does it mean in relation to terminators ?
(Absolutely no offence, I'm really trying to get behind it.)

[Sneery_Thug]

And I've heard, Tex is working on Project Balance Spacemarines. Perhaps we should just wait for his topic. As much I understand, most even the very best players trust his opinion.

[Caeltos]

You responded like all politicians do. General words and no specifics. And yes I won't be trying to get answers yet again. Because the perspective to see a bunch of negative words does not appeal me at all.

P. S. And in regard being blind on my main faction's problems. I don't really think that space marines have stuff that is overperforming or unfair (with rare exceptions). When all races got new units space marines got an unreliable artillery piece and some really situational upgrades for units. And popular belief about strong SM T3 now doesn't seem adequate. And that is because of all the new units that can hurt terminators badly. And hey terminators are not exclusive anymore! But whatever...

Oh fuck off you twat. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean I'm trying to be manipulative.

The post I was referring you would have to re-read is this;

People are generally just to stubborn to not try to look into a unit on it's generalistic design and approach to the army composition they serve and utilize, instead they will direct and compare to other units with similiar traits, yet they are fundementally designed differently.

Because your post, straight after I posted my opinion on the matter was followed by these few things.

Why melee oriented terminators were added for each commander in the first place? How can it be explained? Why Chaos was in need of more melee units when there were a lot of them already?

When lightning claws chaos terminators and lightning claws loyalist terminators were equalized in terms of combat efficiency why their cost has not been adjusted? Heretics now are cheaper to reinforce, chaos marines have been cheaper to reinforce than tactical marines since forever. What bleed chaos req to justify the lower cost (-100 req to upgrade, -50 to reinforce a model)?

Do you as the creator of this mod tolerate such things as copy-paste units?

And now some thoughts about Chaos T3 overall. Chaos T3 has 2 superunits and two kinds of terminators (they were stolen from Space Marines and became better) and it has the tank with 3 different upgrades. And SM can only afford tzeentch mark for their tank and the land raider redeemer. And only one commander can get two kinds of terminators, one commander has no unique unit whatsoever and another commander can get the venerable dread. The unique unit of the Force Commander was donated to each chaos commander. And there will be no rest for me while this injustice exists.

Infact, your whole god damn post was a big insult of not giving a shit of what I just said. Coupled that with your agressive response with some negativity and you expect me to be all fine with it?


PS.I didn't even specify the people who were being bias, but I appriciate your honestly. It really showed through tho at the end.

Would be appreciated, if you explain me, what "general eco-structure" means? Yes, I know that chaos units are averagely cheaper - but what does it mean in relation to terminators ?
(Absolutely no offence, I'm really trying to get behind it.)

Well, Space Marines have a fairly high health pool, coupled with sustain and firepower. Compared to Chaos Space Marines, which trade that for potentially higher unit count, and agressive capability. However, in return - the Chaos Space Marines will generally also suffer more requisition/attrition bleed effect through-out the game.

This is why in Chaos Retail, usually always stuck around in T2 forever, partially due to to general economical push-backs that was caused as long as T1/T2 purchases were made, the T3 300/150 + Predator cost was an unfathomable high resource pool to accumulate in a 1v1 scenario. It was a much safer bet to try to sustain yourself at 450 in T2 to keep applying the general pressure potential.

Now, with a 210 tic squad, coming in at around 13 req/per model iirc. and 75 req per CSM. Etc, both of these units have generally a fairly low health compared to the Space Marine counterparts. So it's a trade-off from being able to apply pressure (heretic model count, etc) is diminished by the attrition effect.

Coupled with an Apothecary that can even have a further effect on the economical war, the Space Marines will generally with an apo have a better eco-sustain through-out the game, assuming both are playing on an equal level. But there are trade-offs and differentials from each commander in all respective matchups, and it's abit too in-depth to try to clarify all these, so I'm trying to keep it simple.

Another thing, is Chaos are specialists, whereas Space Marines are a generalist faction by inherit design. That's why some units are the way that they are, in order to preserve that element as well.

Now, if you're not familliar with the term of specialist vs generalist. I'll try to explain it in DoW2 Fashion;

- Tactical Space Marines: Capable of equipping with a variety of tools, and are fairly respectable in melee combat with a sergeant. They're a jack of all trades type of unit. Capable of being decent against everything, but not overwhelmingly powerful against something.

- Chaos Space Marines: Specialized unit that favors going for a specific route, that enhances their performance in a direction they see fit. These upgrades will trade one thing for improving another. Mark of Tzeentch, more favoreable in ranged combat, but trade their melee damage for ranged. Or Mark of Khorne, that makes them more fierce in melee, but less capable of being an actual ranged combat squad.

That's abit of the very short version of things. However, there are some "generalistic upgrades" primarily. And Bloodletters used to be a fairly generalistic unit as well back in Retribution/Chaos Rising due to heavy_melee, which I was never personally very fond over. They were able to single-handedly take out vehicle play fairly well, espicially with heretic support. That's why I made Bloodletters back again to being a specialized squad instead. Despite Raptors having certain similiarities, the Raptors are capable of furthermore specializing themselves into a directional route of being a dedicated AV-squad that can quickly close the distance. Compared to Vanguards, as an example, that are more potent at dealing with everything, but at the same time maintaining the potential to get a Power Fist to become a generalistic squad. But trying to keep it somewhat reasonable, the Melta Bomb is not maintained through the purchase to ease out some restrains on the capability of the generalistic squad potential. If you give too much variety and option for the generalistic squad there's a potential that it becomes borderline just too much. See Bloodletter for abit of a reference, on where I thought it went abit overboard.

Sternguards are pretty much as well, the generalist squad in-perfection. With weapon ammo that is capable of dealing with everything, they can quickly swap on the fly to deal with whatever threat they seem fit. However, unlike Tactical Space Marines that are more capable of specializing themselves abit, within their inherit generalistic design. (Plasma Gun, etc does not reduce the overall melee effiency of the squad) the Sterngaurds trade the overall specializing for a more generalistic approach through-out.

Now, back to the eco-structure. Terminators for Space Marines should be high reinf cost, but at the same time, their durability and sustainability and overall effiency should be in "harmony" with the overall army composition within their roster. That's why they are higher then the Chaos Space Marines Terminators, since Chaos suffers generally abit more overall req/attrition through-out the game.

This is also why GK Terminators are also abit less well. A big part of that is due to Stormtroopers being more based on heretic-attrition design, they die more often then scout, but problably not as much as Heretics. However, GK's also don't suffer as much as bleed as Chaos Space Marine "Tougher unit" counteparts, but when they do, it should be respectively high.

-> See cost reinf. per model for GK's for an overall look, higher reinf. cost per Purgation, Interceptor, Purifier etc, and quantity based Stormtrooper.
-> See cost. reinf per model for Chaos for an overall look, quantity based reinf. cost per squad. Heretics, (4x Man Bloodletter/Plague Marines) and Chaos Space Marine durability comparison etc;

Just an example; Space Marines are abit of the inbetweeners of the two factions, or well GK/Chaos depends on how you look at it. All have their unique eco structure based on their own faction army compositions, not a direct comparison of the units.

This is why I also believe that Chaos was one of the strongest factions back in Chaos Rising in particular, because they had the most favorable and rewardable agression based playstyle in the early-game, and once you figured out the eco-weakness of Chaos mid-game, you would have to mitigiate it's effect in the mid-game by playing defensively. The one that did that really well, in my opinion is the Chaos Lord, since he has the most punish potential of Chaos Space Marines with less restrains on your overall counterpush potential. (Sorcerer would lose out energy/health more easily) whereas the Plague Champion is the one that is abit of both, but not neccasarily specialized in anything in some matchups back then.

So, there you have it. I hope that answerered abit of about the eco-structure topic. And this is why I frown upon also direct-unit comparisons, because they overlook the army compositions and the functionality of the factions on their own, for the sake of argueing over the comparison of X vs Y unit.

[Sub_Zero]

I am not as intemperate as you are and I will respond like always do - without any offence intended.

People are generally just to stubborn to not try to look into a unit on it's generalistic design and approach to the army composition they serve and utilize, instead they will direct and compare to other units with similiar traits, yet they are fundementally designed differently.

Isn't that called general words? I expected to hear an explanation specifically about chaos terminators vs sm terminators. So let's start it again, let me explain you yet again why I think I am right.

What are terminators for?
They make a big impact being called in on the battlefield and afterwards can be upgraded with different weapons to become better. Is there any difference between default chaos terminators and default sm terminators concerning that aspect? Yes, there is. Chaos terminators are cheaper initially because they are worse without upgrades. And the difference in cost to call them in is justified. Go for the next position.

How do upgraded terminators perform?
Upgraded Chaos ranged terminators perform better in terms of damage dealing but they have less health and hence they tend to lose models more often and the cost you pay to reinforce a model is justified. However when they upgrade melee weapons they become as good as sm terminators with lightning claws are. They are 100% equal in terms of damage dealing and standing power. But for some strange reason they cost less overall and has the cheaper reinforcing cost. THIS IS NOT JUSTIFIED AT ALL. Or is it? Go for the next position.

What about economic of those 2 races?
The backbone of those 2 races consists of durable squads that less exposed to bleed. Have to mention that space marines' units more durable and more expensive but worse in terms of damage output. Starting units of those races can bleed you badly. Very fragile scouts have to pay 35 req to reinforce a model and fragile starting heretics have to pay 12 req to reinforce a model. But these units are not meant for offensive role for the most part and hence should not bleed you significantly. And I conclude that these 2 races very similar economic wise and there is no particular reason for chaos terminators with lightning claws to be cheaper. Go for the next position.

What is the role of lightning claws terminators in these 2 races rosters?
Let's start with the statement that SM can afford melee terminators only if the FC was chosen as a hero. Space Marines have no dedicated melee units. The only melee units they have are the assault marines and the librarian. Let's have a look what is going on Chaos side. EACH COMMANDER can afford melee terminators. Chaos roster contains a lot of melee units. 1) Heretics (only good in T1) 2) Bloodletters (crazy power melee damage, being a jump unit they can be considered as a dedicated melee unit since have insane damage) 3) Khorne marines (less powerful in terms of damage but have different armor type and have a great chase potential). And now in T3 chaos players can get yet another melee unit - chaos terminators. What do I want to say? There were no lack of strong melee units and there was no point to add yet another melee unit. However the lack of melee units in the SM roster is obvious but for some reason only the FC has access to melee oriented terminators.

And now tell me guys what have I written wrong? Which point was wrong?
Caeltos, if you don't want to explain it like I did then why just insult me? And when I said about negative words from you I was keeping in my mind the situation with other user of this forum who got insulted just because he didn't understand what you do understand and for some reason you don't explain it and just act like an intemperate person. Oh I see you had added something while I was writting my post.

[Nurland]

Very fragile scouts have to pay 35 req to reinforce a model and fragile starting heretics have to pay 12 req to reinforce a model. But these units are not meant for offensive role for the most part and hence should not bleed you significantly.

Well Heretics generally bleed a lot of models... If you bleed more from Scouts than from Heretic, I have to say you are getting outclassed by your opponent (with the exception of going against snipr0 Scouts or Rangers). Scouts are a ranged squad with higher speed and close to double hp/model compared to Tics (140hp to 80hp) who are a melee squad which relies on sacrificing its own models via doomblast. A Scout squad can kite most melee squads with ease while heretics really can not and without GLs they don't do any ranged damage whatsoever.

In general melee squads tend to bleed more than ranged squads since they have to commit more to the engagements.

Melee heretics are used offensively especially in early game (with the exception of PC). They just are not the line breaker unit for Chaos. Heretics recede to a more defensive role to avoid disproportional bleed later in the game (worship, repair, grenade launchers and counter initiation) as they are so fragile to all AoE and they can't compete with T2 melee units/upgrades anymore.