Terminators

[crazyman64335]

sub zero i'm sorry, i can't seem to find you on the 1v1 ladder? now your input would be alot more effective if you actually were on there, because from the sounds of it, you're a 3v3 player. and the game isn't balanced around 3v3's. It's balanced around 1v1's as it should be. So if you think space marine terminators are underperforming, go play a 1v1 and field them, if you can last that long

[Sub_Zero]

Nurland, you are right about heretics and, Crazyman, you are right that I prefer team games. But to say in my defence I was playing against both of you. 2 v 2 matches it were. And my team won and not because I was carried by my teammate (there were pure fights on lane without doubling and stuff like that). But I don't know what 1 v 1 gamemode has to do with my issue here. They cost the same amount in 3 v 3 and they cost the same amount in 1 v 1. And my point is not about sm terminators underperforming but about chaos melee terminators being cheaper.

[Faultron]

subzero, 1v1 is completely diferent from team game, and not just from balance view

[Sub_Zero]

Are we going to talk about that or stick to the topic?

[Nurland]

What name do you play under in game then Zero? I am just curious. ^^

Units cost the same but economy works a bit different in 1v1 and team games. And I'd say that based on my personal experience Tics for example are harder to keep out of harms way in 1v1 than team games.

[crazyman64335]

Nurland, you are right about heretics and, Crazyman, you are right that I prefer team games. But to say in my defence I was playing against both of you. 2 v 2 matches it were. And my team won and not because I was carried by my teammate (there were pure fights on lane without doubling and stuff like that). But I don't know what 1 v 1 gamemode has to do with my issue here. They cost the same amount in 3 v 3 and they cost the same amount in 1 v 1. And my point is not about sm terminators underperforming but about chaos melee terminators being cheaper.

they cost the same amount, however they have a more significant impact in a 1v1 as compared to a 3v3 same as all "super units"

[MaxPower]

Nurland, you are right about heretics and, Crazyman, you are right that I prefer team games. But to say in my defence I was playing against both of you. 2 v 2 matches it were. And my team won and not because I was carried by my teammate (there were pure fights on lane without doubling and stuff like that). But I don't know what 1 v 1 gamemode has to do with my issue here. They cost the same amount in 3 v 3 and they cost the same amount in 1 v 1. And my point is not about sm terminators underperforming but about chaos melee terminators being cheaper.

they cost the same amount, however they have a more significant impact in a 1v1 as compared to a 3v3 same as all "super units"

Dunno if I get something mixed up, but chaos LC terminators are cheaper meaning they don't cost the same amount as the loyal LC counterpart.

And could you explain to me why that is justified, since "they (are they referring to loyal LC terminators or chaos LC terminators) have a more significant impact in a 1v1 as compared to a 3v3 same as all super units".

Also I'm just talking about SM LC Terminators and Chaos LC Terminators!

[crazyman64335]

Nurland, you are right about heretics and, Crazyman, you are right that I prefer team games. But to say in my defence I was playing against both of you. 2 v 2 matches it were. And my team won and not because I was carried by my teammate (there were pure fights on lane without doubling and stuff like that). But I don't know what 1 v 1 gamemode has to do with my issue here. They cost the same amount in 3 v 3 and they cost the same amount in 1 v 1. And my point is not about sm terminators underperforming but about chaos melee terminators being cheaper.

they cost the same amount, however they have a more significant impact in a 1v1 as compared to a 3v3 same as all "super units"

Dunno if I get something mixed up, but chaos LC terminators are cheaper meaning they don't cost the same amount as the loyal LC counterpart.

And could you explain to me why that is justified, since "they (are they referring to loyal LC terminators or chaos LC terminators) have a more significant impact in a 1v1 as compared to a 3v3 same as all super units".

Also I'm just talking about SM LC Terminators and Chaos LC Terminators!

this is justified because they sync better with the entirety of the space marine army, whereas chaos terms are more about charging in recklessly and wrecking face. Space marines require more strategy to play, and are fairly weak with their individual units, however collectively they become strong with inspiration buffs etc.

[MaxPower]

this is justified because they sync better with the entirety of the space marine army, whereas chaos terms are more about charging in recklessly and wrecking face. Space marines require more strategy to play, and are fairly weak with their individual units, however collectively they become strong with inspiration buffs etc.

But Chaos has something akin to inspiration, also chaos terminators get supported by heretics (the t1 starting unit for chaos), while loyal terminators need a librarian as a support. And we all know how good the librarian is.

The way I see it is that chaos get melee terminators for less even though they are able to support their terminators better compared to space marines.

Remember it's only LC Terminators that are in this weird spot, meaning I don't have a problem with the ranged variants. But either chaos melee terminators need a health nerf, a price increaese or sm melee terminators need a health buff, a price reduction or someting to make up for thprice difference.

[Sub_Zero]

I think we start to say same things again. Let's reconcile with that thing. The unit was stolen and given to all chaos commanders and we gotta be ok with it.

[Torpid]

Or maybe the two units aren't exactly the same because they reside in different races? One race, SM has it easier transitioning out of t2 and into t3, whereas chaos tends to have to spend heavy heavy amounts in t2 to maintain their pressure both in sunk costs since they don't get transitional AV (instead having to buy vehicles of their own or brand new units such as plague marines) and through extra bleed (Since units like letters/raptors/tics are going to be bleeding way more than ASM/scouts), so termies have to be cheaper in order to make them a viable incentive for chaos even going t3 in the first place.

[MaxPower]

Or maybe the two units aren't exactly the same because they reside in different races? One race, SM has it easier transitioning out of t2 and into t3, whereas chaos tends to have to spend heavy heavy amounts in t2 to maintain their pressure both in sunk costs since they don't get transitional AV (instead having to buy vehicles of their own or brand new units such as plague marines) and through extra bleed (Since units like letters/raptors/tics are going to be bleeding way more than ASM/scouts), so termies have to be cheaper in order to make them a viable incentive for chaos even going t3 in the first place.

Chaos also gets a gread unclean one, so whats the point? chaos alread got a melee super unit.

[Sneery_Thug]

Thanks for the wide answer - explains much.

Still some questions:

1. Chaos (tics in the first lane) bleed more req. But isn't it mostly relevant in t1 and perhaps t2 and much less in t3?

2. Chaos terminators synergise much better with their armies than sm counterparts because of: a) CL - Khorn worship, b) CS - global teleport and c) PC -no idea what. xD
And sm pretty much need the librarian with his upgrades which cost ... (libby has his own topic.)

3.

Mark of Tzeentch, more favoreable in ranged combat, but trade their melee damage for ranged.

Is it intended, that 2 MoT tacs (with sarges) kill 1 asm squad in melee??

[Codex]

My 2 cents: I think there is something to be said about the fact Chaos Terms belong in a different race so I have no problem with them being called in for cheaper, but I feel that they should reinforce for something along the lines of 125/50, slightly cheaper than reinforcing SM Terms. Currently there is quite a large discrepancy and I'm not sure that is justified as I feel Chaos Terms are more viable in the long run than Loyalist ones, due to their overall cheaper reinforce. I'm very very very reluctant to drop terminator models ever.

Lightning claws also fill a different role to either the pred or the GUO or the Land Raider. I'm not sure if all commanders should have access to them though, considering how they rape face off any and all infantry bar Nob frenzy.

Re: Sneery

Heretics bleed a fuckton in T3. Generally you'll need at least 1, maybe even 2 if you need the map control/ repair/ worship options, and they just get eviscerated by T3 firepower.

[Torpid]

Yeah and it takes a whole 2.5minutes, 1k req and 300 power to get a GUO out. The thing with terminators is that they are a little cheaper on the req and time isn't such a big deal because you drop 'em into the game. To compensate for that they cost red. Besides let's face it the GUO and LC termies have different roles anyway, I don't think GUO has as much end-game potential as termies. Termies, will roflstomp most t2 compositions, especially that of eldar/orks and even SM really because they just do more raw dps than the GUO. The GUO is a better counter-initiation unit really with all his control abilities/aoe potential, so I think he's better at supporting an already solid army.

[Caeltos]

I think we start to say same things again. Let's reconcile with that thing. The unit was stolen and given to all chaos commanders and we gotta be ok with it.

Please stop saying that. Really, please.

[Forestradio]

the way it seems to me, melee terminators are usually more viable in a 1v1 because there is less ranged firepower around.

Range blobs of doom are more common in team games.

[Sub_Zero]

Is it intended, that 2 MoT tacs (with sarges) kill 1 asm squad in melee??

Let me go a bit off-topic but I want to point out that chaos marines are better in melee combat than tactical marines in terms of raw dps. Fully upgraded tzeentch marines do 100 melee dps and fully upgraded tactical marines do 83 melee dps. But the advantages of tactical marines are the sergeant who posseses 70 melee skill, they can boost their melee damage against heavy infantry via kraken bolts, have the ability to knockback units in melee combat, have more health.
In T1 if I face assault marines and I have 2x chaos marines then I always force melee on them along side heretics. And assault marines have to retreat very soon. Because if you deal very little damage shooting at them because they are heavy infantry and when they fight in melee with your heretics they take less damage from ranged units (like all units with melee resistance aura do)

Codex, default chaos terminators are cheaper because they are worse (have less health) than default sm terminators. But when they get upgraded they do become better. But no cost adjustments happening in this case and that is the issue for me. Especially concerning melee oriented terminators.

You got any ideas about unique terminators for each chaos commander? I mean you call in default chaos terminators and can upgrade them afterwards with a unique upgrade. Khorne terminators for the chaos lord for example. The most expensive among other upgrades but this upgrade gives them lightning claws with initial lower dps but each strike increases dps and +0,5 speed while in combat (activates with the charge). Basically they act like sm lightning claws terminators do but with some differences.

Chaos got some stuff from space marines. Raptors, land raider. But all these things are different from their counterparts. But copied-pasted terminators really sadden me.

[Lulgrim]

Is it intended, that 2 MoT tacs (with sarges) kill 1 asm squad in melee??

Seeing as ASM can only melee 1 unit at once, would this scenario involve them fighting one, while being shot at by the other...?

Either way, I forget how exactly we tweaked prices but in retail two fully kitted TCSM were a 1360/130 investment. Let that sink in a bit, basically a super-unit-grade investment in heavy infantry killers... So yes, it's probably reasonable they can kill an ASM.

[sk4zi]

TCSM suck in melee...

but i agree with the point that SM terms are too weak atm.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

In raw DPS terms, 2 x TCSM should kill a Sargent ASM in melee combat, but the 10 melee skill difference will make ASM make tons of special attacks.

Is better to keep one in melee combat and the other shooting.

Beautifull Off-topic.

Chaos got some stuff from space marines. Raptors, land raider. But all these things are different from their counterparts. But copied-pasted terminators really sadden me.

Chaos Terminators are a copy of loyal Terminators? Maybe, but also in TT and in fluff (if they don't have a mark) they are very similar.

In fact, AFAIK they only differences are in their weapons: LT have Assault Cannon and CT the Reaper Cannon, for example.

Of course, we can make them different even more. We can add Combi weapons or add a mark to Chaos Terminators. Or, as you have said, a different upgrade for each commander. The problem? The balance, as always.

[Nurland]

TCSM suck in melee...

Well for a ranged unit Tcsm do not suck at melee... They have rather high melee dps and melee resistance aura so they can quite easily take on weakened melee squads with some support.

I forget how exactly we tweaked prices but in retail two fully kitted TCSM were a 1360/130

In Elite 2x fully kitted Tcsm are 1330/140 iirc.

But as I stated before I wouldn't mind a req cost increase to Chaos Terminator LCs and/or as Codex mentioned, a slight reinf cost increase.

[MaxPower]

In raw DPS terms, 2 x TCSM should kill a Sargent ASM in melee combat, but the 10 melee skill difference will make ASM make tons of special attacks.

Is better to keep one in melee combat and the other shooting.

Beautifull Off-topic.

Chaos got some stuff from space marines. Raptors, land raider. But all these things are different from their counterparts. But copied-pasted terminators really sadden me.

Chaos Terminators are a copy of loyal Terminators? Maybe, but also in TT and in fluff (if they don't have a mark) they are very similar.

In fact, AFAIK they only differences are in their weapons: LT have Assault Cannon and CT the Reaper Cannon, for example.

Of course, we can make them different even more. We can add Combi weapons or add a mark to Chaos Terminators. Or, as you have said, a different upgrade for each commander. The problem? The balance, as always.

But y would u give them melee terminators in the first place? I mean we already established that chaos has loads of strong melee units (mok marines, letters and the freakin guo) which is why I don't understand what the reasoning behind giving chaos melee terminators was.

[Torpid]

Put simply, because of tacs, ASM, the SM heroes, the razorback and the libster. That's why chaos get melee terminators. Caeltos has already hinted at where that logic comes from and I've tried to elaborate that even further, if you can't work the rest out then you probably shouldn't be discussing this sort of thing on the forums.

[MaxPower]

Put simply, because of tacs, ASM, the SM heroes, the razorback and the libster. That's why chaos get melee terminators. Caeltos has already hinted at where that logic comes from and I've tried to elaborate that even further, if you can't work the rest out then you probably shouldn't be discussing this sort of thing on the forums.

Put simply, you insulted me, yes I got that.

Also Tacs, ASM, the SM heroes, the razorback and the libby have been around for ages and everyone could deal with them just fine, but apparently this isn't true anymore hence chaos had to get melee terminators. Care to explain what has changed to make melee terminators available to chaos?

And again I'm just talking about melee terminators.

[Ace of Swords]

Put simply, because of tacs, ASM, the SM heroes, the razorback and the libster. That's why chaos get melee terminators. Caeltos has already hinted at where that logic comes from and I've tried to elaborate that even further, if you can't work the rest out then you probably shouldn't be discussing this sort of thing on the forums.

where are my bloodlters,cheap walker,plague marines,melee scouts and avatar of the emperor?

[xerrol nanoha]

But y would u give them melee terminators in the first place? I mean we already established that chaos has loads of strong melee units (mok marines, letters and the freakin guo) which is why I don't understand what the reasoning behind giving chaos melee terminators was.

WARNING: Incoming pointed sarcasm, if you're easily offended then here is an apology in advance <3

It's simple really, Chaos NEVER has enough melee units! I mean, it wasn't enough that Heretics, khorne marines, bloodletters, bloodcrushers, dreadnoughts, and the great unclean one were melee which is way more than half of their army! They needed more! and when they got raptors, those could equip ranged AV weapons so they don't even count! MORE CHAOS MELEE!

Oh hey, here's a brilliant idea: lets try and give everyone terminators! Oh shit we can't give tyranids terminators, that's against the rules of fluff, and we can't give them to orks either. FUCK... Okay then, so is it okay for chaos to have terminators in fluff? Damn straight! but we could give them ranged obliterators instea- SHUDDAP, TERMINATORS FO LYFE!

ALRIGHT LETS DO THIS. oh wait, hold on... among the best space marine units are the jump infantry and the landraider and them sexy baller lightning claw terminators... hmmm, can we make those better somehow? Who cares if we already have teleporting bloodletters with heavy melee damage, fuck them they don't even deserve heavy melee, in fact they're worthless! Besides it's way more coolto have chaos marines in jump pa- i mean raptors, that carry meltas!

And what about that boring landraider, can we replace those shit flamers on the landraider with AV weapons? LETS DO IT but only if it isn't allowed to reinforce (those poor heretics man, you had them so excited and you let them down). What about terminators?....

OH OH WHAT IF what if they were NORMAL TERMINATORS that got LIGHTNING CLAWS!?!? what an awesome Idea! Just bypass that whole shitty hammer shield crap nobody likes! And then if we have only one kind of terminator squad, we can give them to all the commanders! CHA-CHING MOnEy IN the BANK!

But don't worry guys, I know that reinforcing terminators is a pain, and that chaos has no mobile reinforcement, so here's a favor: they're reinforcement cost is fucking cheap so you feel better after you've walked them all the way back to base!

Have fun upholding tradition as the strongest race in retail and ever since!

But seriously, it was a joke. I'm exaggerating for the sake of satire, so don't get your tactical dreadnought armor in a twist.

[MaxPower]

It's simple really, Chaos NEVER has enough melee units! I mean, it wasn't enough that Heretics, khorne marines, bloodletters, bloodcrushers, dreadnoughts, and the great unclean one were melee which is way more than half of their army! They needed more! and when they got raptors, those could equip ranged AV weapons so they don't even count! MORE CHAOS MELEE!

Oh hey, here's a brilliant idea: lets try and give everyone terminators! Oh shit we can't give tyranids terminators, that's against the rules of fluff, and we can't give them to orks either. FUCK... Okay then, so is it okay for chaos to have terminators in fluff? Damn straight! but we could give them ranged obliterators instea- SHUDDAP, TERMINATORS FO LYFE!

ALRIGHT LETS DO THIS. oh wait, hold on... among the best space marine units are the jump infantry and the landraider and them sexy baller lightning claw terminators... hmmm, can we make those better somehow? Who cares if we already have teleporting bloodletters with heavy melee damage, fuck them they don't even deserve heavy melee, in fact they're worthless! Besides it's way more coolto have chaos marines in jump pa- i mean raptors, that carry meltas!

And what about that boring landraider, can we replace those shit flamers on the landraider with AV weapons? LETS DO IT but only if it isn't allowed to reinforce (those poor heretics man, you had them so excited and you let them down). What about terminators?....

OH OH WHAT IF what if they were NORMAL TERMINATORS that got LIGHTNING CLAWS!?!? what an awesome Idea! Just bypass that whole shitty hammer shield crap nobody likes! And then if we have only one kind of terminator squad, we can give them to all the commanders! CHA-CHING MOnEy IN the BANK!

But don't worry guys, I know that reinforcing terminators is a pain, and that chaos has no mobile reinforcement, so here's a favor: they're reinforcement cost is fucking cheap so you feel better after you've walked them all the way back to base!

Have fun upholding tradition as the strongest race in retail and ever since!

But seriously, it was a joke. I'm exaggerating for the sake of satire, so don't get your tactical dreadnought armor in a twist.

Would be hilarious if it wasnt true, even though that was ott but the message, the quintessence of that quote is so true.

How about we make the LC terminators exclusive to the FC, meaning chaos should still be able to get terminators, but only the ranged variants, because chaos got enough strong melee units already.

[Sub_Zero]

How about we make the LC terminators exclusive to the FC, meaning chaos should still be able to get terminators, but only the ranged variants, because chaos got enough strong melee units already.

It MUST be like that.

[Raffa]

How about we make the LC terminators exclusive to the FC, meaning chaos should still be able to get terminators, but only the ranged variants, because chaos got enough strong melee units already.

It MUST be like that.

O you SM fanboyz!!!!



Seriously though I don't think some of you ever suggest anything except to benefit your favourite race(s). Tbh I used to be pretty pro-Chaos so I know how you're thinking but that was a loooong time ago.

I really don't see the point suggesting things without even trying to see the other side of the argument.

Judging from some comments, I'm pretty damn sure most of you aren't very experienced at this game so let me clue you in: retail Chaos T3 is terrible and T2 is too strong. In Elite the Chaos T2 has been hit, like, massively. Compensation? In T3 Chaos gets terminators and a high-dps land raider. That was needed since Chaos' competitiveness came from it's overpowered T2 and Caeltos wanted to bring them in line with the other races and benefit appropriately from T3. I would be pretty surprised if the same one-sided, repetitive, loop-sided arguments from the same people result in any changes.

From a Chaos POV, I would probably tech to T3 a lot less often if Chaos terminators lost the flexibility they have now and nothing else changed.

You disagree ofc and I'll never convince you, but at least it's some perspective.