Tactical Marines not tactical enough?

[Magus Magi]

There was a time when tacs were concidered largely unviable for anyone but apo and 3 scouts bos were common. Not much (if anything apart from the missile launcher build time) has changed with tacs since then.

^ Just to clarify, if you had control of the ball here, would you buff tactical marines? If so, how? I know that both you an Riku are grade A+ SM players, and I'd be genuinely interested to hear your answer.


On a different note, I'm nervous about the comparisons between Tacs and Shootas on here. I don't think they are remotely the same or play the same role within their respective armies. Just because Shootas fail to scale well into tier 3 shouldn't mean that Tacs can't either.

[Faultron]

There was a time when tacs were concidered largely unviable for anyone but apo and 3 scouts bos were common. Not much (if anything apart from the missile launcher build time) has changed with tacs since then.

^ Just to clarify, if you had control of the ball here, would you buff tactical marines? If so, how? I know that both you an Riku are grade A+ SM players, and I'd be genuinely interested to hear your answer.


On a different note, I'm nervous about the comparisons between Tacs and Shootas on here. I don't think they are remotely the same or play the same role within their respective armies. Just because Shootas fail to scale well into tier 3 shouldn't mean that Tacs can't either.

?
Tacticals scales well into T2 and T3, they are one of the best basic tier 1 unit who can do this, or maybe the only one...cos they have all kind of weapon and they can switch it+tankiness.

and xerrol nanoha is not suggesting balance problem changes, he suggesting more of an idea of a new tactical squad design.

[Torpid]

On a different note, I'm nervous about the comparisons between Tacs and Shootas on here. I don't think they are remotely the same or play the same role within their respective armies. Just because Shootas fail to scale well into tier 3 shouldn't mean that Tacs can't either.

Well both units are the dedicated mainline ranged unit for each race in t1. As are termagants/csm/guardsmen/guardians and none of these has the potential to be so effective against buildings/turrets/melee/SHI/vehicles, so this proves tacs scale just fine and that ignores the scenarios in which they can change into sternguards - which is their way of scaling in the anti-infantry department that shootas scale into, but then they're doing it even better because even in that role you have extra wiping potential via the hellfire DOT and light AV/ASHI and you counter buildings just as good.

[sk4zi]

And shoota boyz scale fantastically into t3 don't they? Hmm, I wonder why flash gitz and kommandoz even exist when shoota boyz have such good tier scaling.

that's exactly the point torpid

true, but SM have no squad to build in T3, just Tanks and Terms (which have a CD) so you need to build T1/2 Stuff, if you need quick units in T3

in this way Flash Gits, Kommandos and Nobs are very good possibilitys

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Nothing unbalance about Tacs, they were Practically fine from the start,don't see any OP issues with Tacs even in retail . Always loved doing Sternguards/Tacs Duo combined with Signum Mark target /Apothecarion HOT /Power sword BC/flagpole combos . One being Specialized in a Wide array of weaponries , Other caters with Multiple ammo types .
Sternguards can scale slightly better at lv4 with better Durability. Both alry offers gud Versatility & Tactical advance makes em able to Shrug off Offensive threats & Survive Explosives/Ranged firefights. Bxk em up with RB/Supression/ASM or Dreadnought and the Squadron will become a force to be reckoned with. Enjoy Using Sternguards against 2-3 Tics, so Satisfying peeling off models

[Faultron]

And shoota boyz scale fantastically into t3 don't they? Hmm, I wonder why flash gitz and kommandoz even exist when shoota boyz have such good tier scaling.

that's exactly the point torpid

true, but SM have no squad to build in T3, just Tanks and Terms (which have a CD) so you need to build T1/2 Stuff, if you need quick units in T3

in this way Flash Gits, Kommandos and Nobs are very good possibilitys

this is why u have to honour ur T1/T2 units cos they scale into higher tiers.
you should not loose ur infantry army as SM unless you wiped something very important to trade.

[Magus Magi]

Faultron:
I apologize if I wasn't clear enough in the construction of my question, but I was asking Toilalee what his opinion on the current state of Tacs was. My question was not directed to the OP, nor was it my response to his post (my two cents on all that is in an earlier post).

I do appreciate your taking the time to engage with me. I enjoy reading all of the lively debate on here. It's all very interesting.

Torpid:
Beyond both units serving as a Tier 1 ranged unit, I stand by my previous statement that the two units serve completely different functions, and shouldn't be compared. The cost of losing tactical marines is more pronounced than it is with shootas. The Tacs you buy at the start of the game are supposed to last you until the very end, and that means they need to scale in a way that shootas don't.

On another note, I don't think the fact that Tacs have a greater potential to deal with "buildings/turrets/melee/SHI/vehicles" than "termagants/csm/guardsmen/guardians" should necessarily end a conversation about Tac scaling. None of those units fill the same role within their respective armies that Tacs do. The closest one is CSM, but that's primarily because of their upkeep, reinforcement, and unit costs.

I suppose the statement I'm taking issue with is "so this proves tacs scale just fine."

Still, I'm sure you're a better player than I am, and I respect your opinion on this subject. I'm not sure I agree, but I'm glad you took the time to address my concerns.

[Toilailee]

There was a time when tacs were concidered largely unviable for anyone but apo and 3 scouts bos were common. Not much (if anything apart from the missile launcher build time) has changed with tacs since then.

^ Just to clarify, if you had control of the ball here, would you buff tactical marines? If so, how? I know that both you an Riku are grade A+ SM players, and I'd be genuinely interested to hear your answer.

No. I would increase the missile build time to ~25 secs or so and revert flamer cost change at least, possibly the other buffs too.

On a different note, I'm nervous about the comparisons between Tacs and Shootas on here. I don't think they are remotely the same or play the same role within their respective armies. Just because Shootas fail to scale well into tier 3 shouldn't mean that Tacs can't either.

I never wrote that.

[Orkfaeller]

Paint me biased, but I dont expect some units to scale better than others, for fluff reasons alone.

I'd hope very much (tactical) Space Marines still be a force even in later stages of the game ( at the same time for example I dont expect lets say Scout to scale at all )

But with immortal srgts scouts scale extremely well all the way into t3.

I'm not claiming they dont scale well ( neither do I claim they do ), I'm not experienced enoight to talk about that, IMHO.

Just saying I dont EXPECT ( demand ) them to scale as well as tactical marines.

[Magus Magi]

Toilailee:

Thanks for the response! I'm a big fan of your techmarine play!

Also, just to clarify...I never quoted you as having written that...it must have gotten hinky when Torpid was quoting me.

[Codex]

Everyone is a big fan of Toil :3

(except Holyhammer)
[Damn Sentinels]

[Toilailee]

Everyone is a big fan of Toil :3

(except Holyhammer)
[Damn Sentinels]

Make that holyhammer + nearly every1 else in the community who has had a conversation or 2 with me.

[Dark Riku]

Make that holyhammer + nearly every1 else in the community who has had a conversation or 2 with me.

You are a Toilet. East shit and flush damn you! <3

[Codex]

Report Riku for easting shit plz

That shit is unnatural. Only westing shit is allowed

[Dark Riku]

Report Riku for easting shit plz

That shit is unnatural. Only westing shit is allowed

At least someone with a working brain! :p

[Kithrixx]

This thread reminds me of the time I wished for Tacs having access to Melta Guns. Is it time for such a thing to be considered once again?

[Faultron]

This thread reminds me of the time I wished for Tacs having access to Melta Guns. Is it time for such a thing to be considered once again?

i dont see how melta is viable on tacs, when u have better weapons now for him (and u can change it+sterns), and melta weapon need also mobility, totally useless on him, except with libby.

ppl already complained about vengeance rounds on sterns being 30 range , now this got buffed to 38, SM melta has 20...

[xerrol nanoha]

Quick question, how does kracken bolts work with plasma guns? (also did anyone else realize how nuts good plasma guns are compared to inferno bolters? it makes CSM look like schoolchildren with waterguns!)
http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite/CSM_Inferno_Bolter
http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite/SM_Plasma_Gun

[Forestradio]

Quick question, how does kracken bolts work with plasma guns? (also did anyone else realize how nuts good plasma guns are compared to inferno bolters? it makes CSM look like schoolchildren with waterguns!)
http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite/CSM_Inferno_Bolter
http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite/SM_Plasma_Gun

except you get 4 inferno bolters, and multiply the given dps to 1.2 to account for eternal war.

There's only one plasma gun.

[Lulgrim]

Quick question, how does kracken bolts work with plasma guns?

Increases damage, of course. It's kraken btw...

also did anyone else realize how nuts good plasma guns are compared to inferno bolters? it makes CSM look like schoolchildren with waterguns!

Um.

• TCSM with full upgrades = 22.69 * 4 (squad members) * 1.2 (EW) = 109 or so dps to heavy infantry
• Plasma Tacs with Sergeant = 9.77 * 2 (bolters) + 1 * 10.48 (bolt pistol) + 1 * 40.15 (plasma gun) = 70 or so dps to heavy infantry (84 if using Kraken Bolts)

Tacs have more sustainability but in terms of raw damage the TCSM are like 50% higher. Not exactly water guns...

[Codex]

Plasma tacs tends to pick models off reliably and quickly; TCSM tend to whittle down a squad quite evenly but also quite quickly. They're different, neither one is strictly better or worse.

Also for those who don't know, kraken bolts increase ALL damage output vs heavy infantry (ONLY). That includes Tac marine fists, flamers, missile launchers etc (Kraken bolts missile into a warrior brood being the dream)

[Black Relic]

Caeltos topic has already been touched on. Codex is correct in that neither MoT is not better nor worse than Tacs w plasma gun.

MoT , as already started, all do the same dps per model so when one goes down their total DPS drops by either quarter(if Ac is there) or by a third.

While Tacs have one high dps model until either that squad is destroyed or the Sergeant is the last member standing. Not to mention what I already stated one this topic and on others and what Codex just posted. How Kraken Bolts work with ALL their weaponry so the High DPS plasma gun gets a 30% (or is it 25?) damage buff on HI.

Although I think it should also effect SHI but that's my opinion.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

tcsm are better against infantry armour though and that's pretty important.

[Sub_Zero]

Although I think it should also effect SHI but that's my opinion.

Of course it should. Space marines have huge problems dealing with super heavy armored units.

Offtop:
As for tzeentch marines I always consider them as a broken unit. Very stupid ranged damage, high health pool, low model count, melee resistance, stupid melee damage. You pretty much forced to get a jump unit against them. Some facts to consider. Each tzeentch marine with eternal war does 26 dps to heavy infantry and can do that from range. Each khorne marine with eternal war does 28 dps to heavy infantry (melee resistance) and need to be close to do so. I am wondering why khorne marines are not as strong as tzeentch marines? Why no 40-50 dps? Your arguments will be 1) they are the only ranged squad for focusing down stuff (that is not true) 2) they are expensive (hm, maybe but they do such nasty things) 3) they are easy to counter (and what unit is hard to counter? you know, good players can counter everything even broken units) Everybody is welcome to discuss that with me through personal messages but not here please

[Kithrixx]

i dont see how melta is viable on tacs, when u have better weapons now for him (and u can change it+sterns), and melta weapon need also mobility, totally useless on him, except with libby.

They're tough enough to close the distance, especially with the Sergeant's ability. There's also the obvious synergy that you helpfully pointed out with the Librarian and the Powers of Going Fast. I don't really see a downside. It's a niche use, yes, but isn't the point of the topic to give Tacs more options without it being a straight buff on all accounts?

[Bahamut]

nevermind, i'm stupid!

[Lulgrim]

Urr the message says "tcsm are better against infantry armour"...

[Cyris]

I think tacs are just fine.

In base form, they do a great genbash and AV job, and as stern they do great AI and commader dps jobs. They scale about averagely relative to other T1 squads, and have AV capabilities which is nice for a T1 squad. I'm very pleased with the unit in ELITE.

[appiah4]

Tacs are fine and my favorite unit. With a Plasmagun and Sergeant they are pretty much on equal footing with MoT, with a Missile Launcher they are almost better than Plague Marines, with a Flamer they are great against pretty much everything. Tactical enough, good enough, no need to mess with them.

The Veteran upgrade to Sternguards sucks pretty bad though. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Sternguard and Vanguard need to be turned into T2 and T3 units that come down in pods or drop in a-la Venerable and Autarch respectively. Buying Sternguards once your Tacs or ASM are Lvl3+ is stupid as hell.

[Sub_Zero]

Buying Sternguards once your Tacs or ASM are Lvl3+ is stupid as hell.

They are not bad, they are just situational. But having more options is always good, isn't it?