WSE

[Panda]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone else finds the WSE rather lackluster in 1v1? Yes he provides very good early map control but I find he wanes towards the mid and late game when you need more from your hero than just (de)capping.

Of course his wargears, especially Entangle, can be powerful. Teleporting heavy melee is very nice too, but I just find he doesn't really hold a candle to the other Eldar heroes.

I usually use him to cap and harass in 1v1 while I try to fight with the rest of my army together as much as possible.

If he's ok balance-wise then how can I get more out of him beyond the early game?

Thanks in advance

[Kvek]

I love to use the heavy gauge spinner, it's a very good thing against heroes that are not cl, bc, ht, also if you need more energy, the tp armor is good, but you should only buy it if you have some resources to spare.
entangle+wraithguard in mid game is absolutely imba combination against ig, i recommend you abuse this

[Torpid]

He's absolutely brilliant throughout the entirety of the game.

USe him early on to bleed enemy cappers and to gain obvious map control. His warp spider spamage is also really handy in early t2. Entangle is just OP when combined with wraithguard or grenades. Also entangle vs ogryns is just unfair.

Power blades are great for the versatility they offer, making the WSE an even better capper since he can just tele onto ranged units or dice melee units at range or in melee as well as giving him a nice AV option.

Shimmer orbs are great for those late-game victory point captures, but more importantly I find, for saving your wraithlord/banshees. Of course they can also be used alongside teleport to negate two enemy suppression teams simultaneously.

Against support heroes I would also recommend getting the heavy gauge death spinner. Against an apo for example you can bait the asm jump with your shuriken, counter initiate with some shees, warcry, nade the asm, then attack the asm again with shees while simultaneously teleporting your WSE in from the side to knock over the apo so he can't get off the heal and wipe asm fairly easily as the apo will likely overextend them thinking he will be able to heal them.

Regarding whether or not to get improved Targeters it just depends on your playstyle. If you are trying to play the capping game then sure get them as it helps the WSE out a lot when capping and adds a lot of bleed to your foe while not costing you any upkeep. However is it really sacrificing 30 power which may get you a shuriken? No, if you are blobbing a lot, otherwise possibly. This could also be affected by the map. On a map like Outer reaches you won't be doing much model bleed and harassment due to it's small nature and a second shuriken would be far better, however on a map like green tooth gorge you can really exploit the additional damage from those targeters, teleporting from building to building constantly bleeding models and getting lots of exp for your force.

Furthermore whether I get shimmer orbs or improved targeters depends on the match up. I don't like targeters against Chaos, SM or Nids because I find t1.5 units are far more pivotal to controlling my foe than some requisition bleed, yet I get them against IG because ranged damage is how you counter IG (and it helps when trying to pick off isolated sentinels), orks and eldar (because the bleed the WSE can cause on these races is sheer insane). Still, that said, I know Swat (who is a very good warp spider player) enjoys getting improved targeters in all match-ups as he plays a very defensive turtling eldar strategy that involves evading his foes, out-capping them and bleeding their req. I don't like this because I want more rangers/shurikens so that I can control my foe since my strategies tend to be far more offensive, capping the peripheries of the map early and slowly proceeding to blob up my force to slowly push my foe back until I have enough map control that I can safely invest in a gen bash without worrying about having my own farm bashed.

[Ace of Swords]

If he's ok balance-wise then how can I get more out of him beyond the early game?

Plain and simple, use his wargear, pretty much everything he can equip comes with CC, and late game the phase armor basically grants a win on every engagemnt since you can cut off half of the army of your opponent if you want, or you can just freeze his whole army and then grande/storm upon it with good timing, the rest of his wargears has a pretty obvious use.

[Asmon]

WSE doesn't play like FS or WL. He should not blob up with the rest of your army.

In late game he is not there to deal damage but rather to use one or two ability at the right time, tying things up quickly, and keep providing the best map control you can get from a hero.

Don't forget about his globals. Crackshot and WS call-in can be the difference between a living and a dead vehicle.

[FiSH]

just a few things other people haven't pointed out:

entangle -> any AOE, enemy will have to retreat.
anti-grav grenade: always lifts up target and puts them right back down on the same spot, so anti-grav nade -> plasma nade
improved targeters: not only damage boost, but also range boost. he can shoot range 57! add a weapon upgarde (both ranged options now give him dps boost in elite), he's a ranger with ~50dps, pair him up with rangers for sight in late game and he will snipe everything and save rangers from anything with annoying abilities.
T2 armor + heavy gauge -> the armor got a mana regen buff in elite, you will never ever run out of mana even with heavy heavy gauge (haha) usage.

[Vapor]

His range is 45 with the targeters, still very good though.

[Codex]

To be clear, standard range is 38 and targeters adds 7 range for 45 total.

[crazyman64335]

and this is why i never recommend using raw statistics, if you're wrong you look like a fool!

[Codex]

I'm of the opposite camp. If you can provide hard stats to back up your arguments, more power to you. And people can be wrong about their opinions as well as stats, so your point is rather pointless.

[Lt. Ekul]

I like to get Improved Targeters in all matchups. Great for killing sluggas/shootas; scouts; tics etc. Then upgrade him in T2 with Improved Warp Jump and Heavy Gauge. This allows you to use Heavy Gauge in virtually every engagement. And once you get some levels on him - which happens relatively easily due to him being able to kill a scout model in 1-2 volleys - he simply becomes better in this role. And then obviously you've got the Phase Shift + Eldritch or Singularity or mass grenades. But the way I play him is generally more of a harassment unit over a control unit. That may be an inefficient way of playing him but I find it enjoyable.

[Sub_Zero]

Improved Targeters are really good. They allow you to stay in the fight even being terribly low on health. And that is because of the improved range. You just teleport back and go on shooting, without that thing you would have been forced to retreat.

P. S. OMG I have exactly the same nickname in the game now (Panda). Didn't know someone had that nickname.

[Vapor]

I like to get Improved Targeters in all matchups. Great for killing sluggas/shootas; scouts; tics etc. Then upgrade him in T2 with Improved Warp Jump and Heavy Gauge. This allows you to use Heavy Gauge in virtually every engagement. And once you get some levels on him - which happens relatively easily due to him being able to kill a scout model in 1-2 volleys - he simply becomes better in this role. And then obviously you've got the Phase Shift + Eldritch or Singularity or mass grenades. But the way I play him is generally more of a harassment unit over a control unit. That may be an inefficient way of playing him but I find it enjoyable.

Does the heavy gauge upgrade give him a base damage buff or do you only get the extra damage when you turn on the ability?

[Faultron]

I like to get Improved Targeters in all matchups. Great for killing sluggas/shootas; scouts; tics etc. Then upgrade him in T2 with Improved Warp Jump and Heavy Gauge. This allows you to use Heavy Gauge in virtually every engagement. And once you get some levels on him - which happens relatively easily due to him being able to kill a scout model in 1-2 volleys - he simply becomes better in this role. And then obviously you've got the Phase Shift + Eldritch or Singularity or mass grenades. But the way I play him is generally more of a harassment unit over a control unit. That may be an inefficient way of playing him but I find it enjoyable.

Does the heavy gauge upgrade give him a base damage buff or do you only get the extra damage when you turn on the ability?

only when u turn the ability on

[Asmon]

Does the heavy gauge upgrade give him a base damage buff or do you only get the extra damage when you turn on the ability?

In Elite it does buff base damage iirc.

[Torpid]

It does, it grants a passive damage buff and an extra damage buff+kb with the active on. In retail it doesn't grant a passive damage buff, that is unique to the entangling web.

[Vapor]

It does, it grants a passive damage buff and an extra damage buff+kb with the active on. In retail it doesn't grant a passive damage buff, that is unique to the entangling web.

Wait so turning the ability on in retail also buffs his damage? I thought it was just knockback.

[Torpid]

No, it doesn't in retail, does it do that here, why am I under the impression it does?

[Vapor]

Dunno but unless someone knows for 100% certain I'll just test it out tonight

Wse with heavy gauge, warp armor, and imp targeters is the DoW2 equivalent to an unkillable fly

[Torpid]

A fly that kills you by looking at you? I guess it often seems like the KB ability causes additional damage because it knocks stuff out of cover, but I'm unsure.

[Lulgrim]

No, it doesn't in retail, does it do that here, why am I under the impression it does?

Heavy Gauge Deathspinner default ranged attack damage increased from 40 to 56

[Torpid]

No, it doesn't in retail, does it do that here, why am I under the impression it does?

Heavy Gauge Deathspinner default ranged attack damage increased from 40 to 56

I take it the active ability of the deathspinner doesn't add on any additional damage?

[Faultron]

No, it doesn't in retail, does it do that here, why am I under the impression it does?

Heavy Gauge Deathspinner default ranged attack damage increased from 40 to 56

I take it the active ability of the deathspinner doesn't add on any additional damage?

no the ability does not grant+dps i was wrong, the default wep does only
(i tested ingame vs generators)

[Lt. Ekul]

So the Heavy Gauge ability only grants knockback in Elite, and the damage buff comes simply from purchasing the wargear? Is this certain, because I was shooting a Painboy with the ability active, and it seemed to me that he was taking much more damage whilst the ability was active in comparison to when it was not. There was no cover to knock him out of either, it was just in the open. Are we sure that the ability doesn't grant a damage buff alongside a damage buff present from purchasing the wargear? Or have I just horribly misunderstood this entire discussion?

[Faultron]

So the Heavy Gauge ability only grants knockback in Elite, and the damage buff comes simply from purchasing the wargear? Is this certain, because I was shooting a Painboy with the ability active, and it seemed to me that he was taking much more damage whilst the ability was active in comparison to when it was not. There was no cover to knock him out of either, it was just in the open. Are we sure that the ability doesn't grant a damage buff alongside a damage buff present from purchasing the wargear? Or have I just horribly misunderstood this entire discussion?

it works everything same like it was in retail, except the weapon damage increase from 40-56, ability doesnt grant +damage or accuracy only kb.
it is not just the cover what could cause the different damage to painboy, also accuracy is big factor here. he has 80% accuracy vs painboy so maybe he was just lucky-unlucky.
(and consider also reloading weapon)

i labbed it like 3 games vs all unit types just for u:)

[Lt. Ekul]

So the Heavy Gauge ability only grants knockback in Elite, and the damage buff comes simply from purchasing the wargear? Is this certain, because I was shooting a Painboy with the ability active, and it seemed to me that he was taking much more damage whilst the ability was active in comparison to when it was not. There was no cover to knock him out of either, it was just in the open. Are we sure that the ability doesn't grant a damage buff alongside a damage buff present from purchasing the wargear? Or have I just horribly misunderstood this entire discussion?

it works everything same like it was in retail, except the weapon damage increase from 40-56, ability doesnt grant +damage or accuracy only kb.
it is not just the cover what could cause the different damage to painboy, also accuracy is big factor here. he has 80% accuracy vs painboy so maybe he was just lucky-unlucky.
(and consider also reloading weapon)

i labbed it like 3 games vs all unit types just for u:)

Haha thanks man That's really useful to know, thanks a lot!