Terminators

[Kvek]

How about we make the LC terminators exclusive to the FC, meaning chaos should still be able to get terminators, but only the ranged variants, because chaos got enough strong melee units already.

It MUST be like that.

O you SM fanboyz!!!!

Yeah, why bother explaining why it doesn't have to be like that, just call the guy who's suggesting it a sm fanboy....

[Caeltos]

It's simple really, Chaos NEVER has enough melee units! I mean, it wasn't enough that Heretics, khorne marines, bloodletters, bloodcrushers, dreadnoughts, and the great unclean one were melee which is way more than half of their army! They needed more! and when they got raptors, those could equip ranged AV weapons so they don't even count! MORE CHAOS MELEE!

Oh hey, here's a brilliant idea: lets try and give everyone terminators! Oh shit we can't give tyranids terminators, that's against the rules of fluff, and we can't give them to orks either. FUCK... Okay then, so is it okay for chaos to have terminators in fluff? Damn straight! but we could give them ranged obliterators instea- SHUDDAP, TERMINATORS FO LYFE!

ALRIGHT LETS DO THIS. oh wait, hold on... among the best space marine units are the jump infantry and the landraider and them sexy baller lightning claw terminators... hmmm, can we make those better somehow? Who cares if we already have teleporting bloodletters with heavy melee damage, fuck them they don't even deserve heavy melee, in fact they're worthless! Besides it's way more coolto have chaos marines in jump pa- i mean raptors, that carry meltas!

And what about that boring landraider, can we replace those shit flamers on the landraider with AV weapons? LETS DO IT but only if it isn't allowed to reinforce (those poor heretics man, you had them so excited and you let them down). What about terminators?....

OH OH WHAT IF what if they were NORMAL TERMINATORS that got LIGHTNING CLAWS!?!? what an awesome Idea! Just bypass that whole shitty hammer shield crap nobody likes! And then if we have only one kind of terminator squad, we can give them to all the commanders! CHA-CHING MOnEy IN the BANK!

But don't worry guys, I know that reinforcing terminators is a pain, and that chaos has no mobile reinforcement, so here's a favor: they're reinforcement cost is fucking cheap so you feel better after you've walked them all the way back to base!

Have fun upholding tradition as the strongest race in retail and ever since!

Who posted this? I can't find it. I must know.

[MaxPower]

How about we make the LC terminators exclusive to the FC, meaning chaos should still be able to get terminators, but only the ranged variants, because chaos got enough strong melee units already.

It MUST be like that.

O you SM fanboyz!!!!

1. Not sure if serious
2. If you are serious: - melee Terminators used to be exclusive to the FC, but with elite they are no longer unique to the FC, because EVERY chaos heroe is able to field them. Why is that the case and please don't give me an "Torpid-Style" kind of answer because that is not helping at all.

Btw. how would anyone feel if Space marines got something a kin to the Great Unclean one, guess everyone would cry op and shit, i mean how about a Primarch kinda thingy or a Chapter Master? Yeah preatty stupid and shit, but my gripe is that a once unique unit to 1 commander has been given to another faction (that already got tons of strong melee units) available for every Chaos Commander at a lower price with an arguably better ranged weapon .

Hence I advocate the idea of giving SM a Great Unclean one, albeit a bit different looking, maybe a bit cheaper as well. (yeah the last part is pure sarcasm, but I guess everyone knows what im trying to say)

3. If you are not serious: just forget everything I just said.

4. On a more serious note: What does anyone else think about making melee terminators exclusive to the FC again?

[Lulgrim]

Ooohkay this is getting so tedious I'll just ban the next repetitive or otherwise retarded/annoying poster. I don't really have strong opinions about the subject itself but reading this muck is gonna rot my brain.

[MaxPower]

Ooohkay this is getting so tedious I'll just ban the next repetitive or otherwise retarded/annoying poster. I don't really have strong opinions about the subject itself but reading this muck is gonna rot my brain.

Not sure if it was because what I just wrote down, but:

I know I might not be qualified to post in this thread just because I'm a SM FC only player. But melee terminators are the unit that made the FC kinda special, but that was taken from this commander.

I think that melee Terminators should be exclusive to the FC just because chaos has very strong melee units already + to make the FC more "unique" again.

Mh, I hope that wasnt too repetitive.

[Primitive]

i thought the FC itself was the thing what makes the FC special ?
im one of the players that cares a shit how unique a unit is as long as the elite mod brings fun and that is what the mod does for me. and sorry but i find nothing in that thread that belongs in the balance section ..... or maybe im just a bit stupid

sorry for my bad english, plz keep up the good work with the mod !

[Forestradio]

comparisons between the GUO and Chaos LC termies aren't really viable IMO.

GUO is a massive damage sponge. Worshipping him is the way to go (bonus if it speeds him up or infiltrates him). He has nice abilities sure (especially the vomit, which is basically a plasma cannon hit and can even do nice damage to vehicles) but he's there to tank.

Chaos LC termies are there to turn whatever is in front of them into corpses. They're a straight up kill everything melee unit similar in role to nobz, except that nobz can damage/kill vehicles but aren't quite as good vs infantry. LC termies can tank too (4500 SHI armor is pretty good) but losing models is a big economic blow and takes the termies off the field for quite a while (whereas the GUO can be worshipped for on the field healing).

As a final note, GK termies don't seem to be an issue, and they can arguably be supported better than EITHER SM or Chaos ones, with ward/we are the hammer/mind blades/shrouding. And GK termies get pretty good ranged dps and incinerators, which make them very hard to kite.

Just my two cents

[Torpid]

Also Tacs, ASM, the SM heroes, the razorback and the libby have been around for ages and everyone could deal with them just fine, but apparently this isn't true anymore hence chaos had to get melee terminators. Care to explain what has changed to make melee terminators available to chaos?

And again I'm just talking about melee terminators.

The meta has changed. Caeltos has made changes that motivate chaos to go t3 in elite more so than in retail. Chaos can't rely solely on t2 anymore as plague marines aren't OP charge-into melee to defeat infantry, just shoot the missle launcher to defeat vehicles sort of unit anymore, nor can bloodletters single-handedly counter tanks, so now chaos has to go t3, yet as previously alluded chaos has a hard time transitioning out of t2 and going t3 because of 2 main things: 1) they bleed more, 2) the transition from t1 to t2 for chaos is nowhere near as smooth as that of SM. Therefore there are serious differences in the way the races work economically, so despite them having two units that are fundamentally the same in combat, that doesn't necessarily imply that the units ought to have exactly the same price tag.

Look at catachans. For 60 power they do a lot but they typically aren't deemed OP, why do you think that is? Well it's because they are a part of a predominantly ranged IG roster. If nids could buy catachans then they would have to be a t2 unit because the disruption of catachans+a nid melee charge would be completely broken, but IG lack melee units so the disruption isn't half as powerful for them.

Why do chaos warrant terminators in the first place? Because an instant dropping SHI unit is very very helpful and wins games vs eldar and orks pretty much as soon as they drop, mainly because they produce far higher raw DPS values than the equivalent SHI super units (GUO/avatar) do. Therefore terminators don't serve the same role as the GUO and because getting a GUO and getting terminators are economically and time-wise totally different prospects terminators offer chaos an additional incentive to go t3 and actually make chaos a hell of a lot more viable, without the AV prospects of chaos terminators I think 80% of the time chaos wouldn't go t3 for reasons elaborated by Caeltos earlier - which are evident throughout the retail meta, however I feel that would make chaos really underpowered considering the changes that occurred to their t2 in elite.

Why are melee terminators necessary then, as they don't bring extra AV potential? Because sometimes you don't go t3 for AV, but you go t3 to get out some serious anti-infantry infantry squads. Suffice to say the options that LC termies offer the chaos t3 are necessary to finalise the changes to the chaos meta and make the chaos t3 a worthwhile investment. The leap from t2 melee to a great unclean one is too large and frankly just an unwarranted comparison to melee termies, the two things serve a different purpose.

Basically, I agree with Raffa.

[ThongSong]

It seems Chaos is taking all the best goodies from SM and making them more killy...

Chaos T3 now has
an anti SHI and anti-vehicle slapping Landraider
uber buffed predators and now terminators too.
to top it off they have a GuO

meanwhile,
SM t3 has remained pretty much the same. barring vanguard veterans.

[Lulgrim]

Not sure if it was because what I just wrote down, but:

[...]

Mh, I hope that wasnt too repetitive.

I didn't mean you specifically. Sub Zero is closest to a holiday ban I guess. But yes, in fact that is repetitive as you have already informed the users of your opinion (several times).

To the general audience: Say your piece then STEP BACK until you have something else to say. Amazing as it may be, repeating the same thing message after message will not help. You are cluttering the board and wasting other people's time. If you can't control yourself, I'll just remove you then.

[MaxPower]

Not sure if it was because what I just wrote down, but:

[...]

Mh, I hope that wasnt too repetitive.

I didn't mean you specifically. Sub Zero is closest to a holiday ban I guess. But yes, in fact that is repetitive as you have already informed the users of your opinion (several times).

To the general audience: Say your piece then STEP BACK until you have something else to say. Amazing as it may be, repeating the same thing message after message will not help. You are cluttering the board and wasting other people's time. If you can't control yourself, I'll just remove you then.

But isn't the idea of a discussion to state ones opinion, read the opinion of the one you are talking to and response to it, even if it means reapting ones argument to make the other party understand ones thought process.

So gonna leave this thread with one last post:

Also Tacs, ASM, the SM heroes, the razorback and the libby have been around for ages and everyone could deal with them just fine, but apparently this isn't true anymore hence chaos had to get melee terminators. Care to explain what has changed to make melee terminators available to chaos?

And again I'm just talking about melee terminators.

[..] nor can bloodletters single-handedly counter tanks [..] , so now chaos has to go t3, yet as previously alluded chaos has a hard time transitioning out of t2 and going t3 because of 2 main things: 1) they bleed more, 2) the transition from t1 to t2 for chaos is nowhere near as smooth as that of SM. [..].


Look at catachans. For 60 power they do a lot but they typically aren't deemed OP, why do you think that is? [..]

Why do chaos warrant terminators in the first place? Because an instant dropping SHI unit is very very helpful and wins games vs eldar and orks pretty much as soon as they drop, mainly because they produce far higher raw DPS values than the equivalent SHI super units (GUO/avatar) do. Therefore terminators don't serve the same role as the GUO and because getting a GUO and getting terminators are economically and time-wise totally different prospects terminators offer chaos an additional incentive to go t3 and actually make chaos a hell of a lot more viable, without the AV prospects of chaos terminators I think 80% of the time chaos wouldn't go t3 for reasons elaborated by Caeltos earlier - which are evident throughout the retail meta, however I feel that would make chaos really underpowered considering the changes that occurred to their t2 in elite.

Why are melee terminators necessary then, as they don't bring extra AV potential? Because sometimes you don't go t3 for AV, but you go t3 to get out some serious anti-infantry infantry squads. Suffice to say the options that LC termies offer the chaos t3 are necessary to finalise the changes to the chaos meta and make the chaos t3 a worthwhile investment. The leap from t2 melee to a great unclean one is too large and frankly just an unwarranted comparison to melee termies, the two things serve a different purpose.

Im not sure about the transition from T1 to T2 not being as smooth as the SM ones, I mean chaos already has so many good units in T1, once they get to T2 they can get even better units (just thinking about the awesome MoT, Letters, Raptors, the Dreadnoughts). All these unites are better compared toany unit the SM can field (and yes I know specialists vs generalists, yadayadayada).

And bloodletters can’t single-handedly counter tanks, but they can single-handedly counter any Space Marine Unit apart from vehicles, but if you wanna fight against them u got the dread with missile launcher or some plagues, maybe a havoc with las cannon.

Saying Catachans are balanced (meaning not op, like You put it) is debatable, let’s just have a look at the thread about how unbalanced Catachans are due to their damage sharing. Also stuff like the 3 leaders escaping with 1 hp, yeah balanced.

But this topic is not about Catachans nor is it about nids, so don’t mention stuff that has nothing to do with this at all.

So all of a sudden Chaos is in need of super heavy infantry to take care of Orks and Eldar, when they could finish them of quiet easily before they got Terminators in the first place. Again, the Traitor faction has the means to fight them with units like, again, Bloodletters, Dreadnoughts, buffed Predators, the Land Raider, the GUO and all the other good stuff like Raptors, Havocs, etc..

Coming back to your last argument that sometimes you just go for T3 “to get out some serious anti-infantry infantry squads” – Letters, ranged Terminators, the GUO aren’t they like serious enough?

The way I see it is that the concept behind SM after the TIOW patch or after CR launched, was the snowball effect, meaning rather weak starting, but once they got to t3 they can pack some serious punch. But in the current elite state chaos is able to do this as well, if not even better, which is just wrong.
Space Marines alongside IG are like the only 2 Factions that don’t have any serious melee units (even though one could argue that catas are and I count Ogrynz as walkers), meaning the squadwipe potential of SM is stupidly low, but in the mean time they get butchered by every unit, because apparently almost all units do extra damage to heavy infantry + scouts being an unreliable melee counter (but that’s another story all together). Anyways, the only good melee unit SM ever had used to be the melee Terminators in combination with the libby, but now another faction gets them as well, for every hero, for a lower price, a faction that is able to support them way better than the faction melee Terminators were designed for.

So yeah, I totally don’t agree with Raffa and You. Also Raffa, nice post, care to explain your “SM Fan Boyz rolleyes, trololo im so smart and u are not” and if you can’t or won’t, how about stop posting trollposts like that.

[Magus Magi]

Having read a bunch of the posts on here, and having followed this thread as it developed, I have to say that I agree with a great deal of what Max Power just said.

In particular though, I think that what he said about SM late game momentum was spot on. If the point of SM play is that they gain momentum steadily before becoming extremely effective in the later stages of the game, I really don't think it comes across in ELITE as it stands now.

Generally Speaking...

Terminator spam with predator tanks isn't so impressive that it's really differentiated from any of the other Tier 3 armies.

Nids have strong early game power with cheap, reliable, and versatile units. They have good suppression, solid tier 2 artillery, a solid tier 2 "walker," and in Tier 3 they get Carnifex, Swarm Lord, and the Doom.

Orks begin in much the same way. Cheap and reliable tier 1 units. Tier 2 seems to pack much less of a punch for orks (save for those sub commanders, always pretty good purchases), but in Tier 3 they get a terrific super unit in the Battlewagon, and the reliable DPS and tanky power of the Nob squad.

Chaos begins with many of the same problems that SM do. Lower unit counts, and costly reinforcing from their power armored footsloggers. But Chaos quickly get a slew of specialized units, many of which are capable of dealing equally well with all infantry armor types (Noise Marines, MoT marines, autocannon termies, various melee). They also get great, and versatile, AV (PM, and MoTD, Havocs if you want to go that route...) The level of specialization that Chaos can bring to the field makes them combat powerhouses that, by the end of the game, are wandering around with a bunch of Chaos Terminators, various predator tank types, the awesome land raider phobos, or the Great Unclean One.

Conclusion:

I suppose the point of my post here, is that Space Marines don't really feel like they corner the market on the late game. If that is a core component of the SM design philosophy I think there's been a mistake. I'm way more concerned with late game Nids, Orks, or Chaos than with late game SM.

[Lulgrim]

But isn't the idea of a discussion to state ones opinion, read the opinion of the one you are talking to and response to it, even if it means reapting ones argument

[MaxPower]

But isn't the idea of a discussion to state ones opinion, read the opinion of the one you are talking to and response to it, even if it means reapting ones argument

[Sub_Zero]

Am I close to be banned? Such a nice decision by you. Have I ever insulted somebody? Have I ever written abusive language? Have I ever blaimed someone's skill in discussions knowing nothing about the player? The answer on all these questions is I have not. And there are lots of people out here who do these things all over the place and they are not get threatened.

Yes, maybe I repeat same things in this topic but I talk to different people here. And if I am not allowed to write on this forum my opinions and if I am not allowed to argue with people then I won't be bothered if you will ban me.

[Lulgrim]

Have I ever insulted somebody?

A bit philosophical but probably.

Yes, maybe I repeat same things in this topic

And I told you to stop it so that subject is pretty much covered.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

just lock the thread and we can deal with it again in a month

[Orkfaeller]

[borken record]Still believe Power Weapons Chaos Terminators would have been a more interessting choice for Chaos. Closer to fluff and alot less of a copy-cat-feeling.[/broken record]

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Problem with make vanilla Chaos Terminators have power melee is Chaos already have 2 squads with power melee in T2.

I have to say that I'm surprised with all that (respectable) complaints about Chaos Terminators but at the same time on the whole thread there are not a single mention at all about GK Terminators (GK Terminators and GK Paladins).

[Dark Riku]

Problem with make vanilla Chaos Terminators have power melee is Chaos already have 2 squads with power melee in T2.

I have to say that I'm surprised with all that (respectable) complaints about Chaos Terminators but at the same time on the whole thread there are not a single mention at all about GK Terminators (GK Terminators and GK Paladins).

And Chaos also has 2 heavy melee units in T2. What's your point..?
I for one like that idea very much.

That's shouldn't be so surprising because it's in the GK faction. All they have in T3 is a LRC and terminators. Not to mention them arguably being pretty weak as a race.

[FunkyMonkey]

As a guy who likes chaos terminators, I wouldn't mine taking away LC and giving them power weapons and combi-meltas at 4500 hp. It helps maintain the Chaos Terminators' flexibility. I know that Caeltos wants the Chaos army to stick to the theme of specialization, but at least in TT, flexibility and marks are main advantages of chaos terminators over loyalist terminators.

[Sub_Zero]

I have to say that I'm surprised with all that (respectable) complaints about Chaos Terminators but at the same time on the whole thread there are not a single mention at all about GK Terminators (GK Terminators and GK Paladins).

We have been discussing chaos terminators lately but initially my first post includes 4 themes to talk about. Feel free to raise them up.

[xerrol nanoha]

I kinda wish paladins had higher base damage, or otherwise had an ability to make them stronger against heavy infantry, just because I feel like Paladins should be like the assault terminators of grey knights, but right now I feel like they just get outvalued by grey knight terminators in general. What if paladin's teleport had knockback or stun or suppression (similar to interceptors or chaos raptors)?

[Kvek]

I kinda wish paladins had higher base damage, or otherwise had an ability to make them stronger against heavy infantry, just because I feel like Paladins should be like the assault terminators of grey knights, but right now I feel like they just get outvalued by grey knight terminators in general. What if paladin's teleport
had knockback or stun or suppression (similar to interceptors or chaos raptors).

Paladins do heavy melee, GKTs aren't going to kill vehicles :L

[xerrol nanoha]

I kinda wish paladins had higher base damage, or otherwise had an ability to make them stronger against heavy infantry, just because I feel like Paladins should be like the assault terminators of grey knights, but right now I feel like they just get outvalued by grey knight terminators in general. What if paladin's teleport
had knockback or stun or suppression (similar to interceptors or chaos raptors).

Paladins do heavy melee, GKTs aren't going to kill vehicles :L

Yes. Sorta. Psycannons in general are decent soft AV as are power melee weapons (although they are not as strong). Paladins seem to me too expensive for a dedicated AV unit when the terminator format (slow moving, teleport with cooldown) is less effective at fighting most late game ranged units (like tanks and other vehicle/monstrous super units).

Although with new options like the assassin snare, I can see them being better, but only in a support role. I would still think that improving Paladin damage would make them more of a generalist terminator unit (since heavy melee is essentially good against everything, in contrast to power melee extra good against HI+SHI and normal melee which just sucks).

However, as I think paladin damage is fine, I feel that dealing with their 1dimensional problem by adding another ability or effect would be more interesting at the least. I mean, there's never been a melee unit with on hit courage damage, that could be cool too as a unique feature of paladins, idk.

But um, whatever you wanna do is fine.

[Nurland]

Paladins do 200 dps heavy melee which is the highest base melee_heavy dps in the game apart from Genestealers and fully upgraded Nobz under frenzy/momentum rings. On top of this they do 78 dps piercing ranged damage with options for ranged upgrades. For comparison: SM ranged Terminators do 101 dps piercing and 105 heavy melee without melee resistance aura (their ranged upgrades are better but also more expensive). ATs with shields and hammers do 135 dps with no ranged attack.

I am not saying Palas are OP but they do not underperform imo.

[Torpid]

Definitely not, they are amazing vs Tanks, they synergise with We Are The Hammer really well and can be infiltrated+buffed by the librarian. With libby support I'm pretty sure pallies beat lightning claw termies due to the doom ability (purge?) and the melee aoe buff (might of the titans?). On top of all this they also passively regenerate the hp of nearby units which is really nice for stormtroopers especially.

[Forestradio]

Definitely not, they are amazing vs Tanks, they synergise with We Are The Hammer really well and can be infiltrated+buffed by the librarian. With libby support I'm pretty sure pallies beat lightning claw termies due to the doom ability (purge?) and the melee aoe buff (might of the titans?). On top of all this they also passively regenerate the hp of nearby units which is really nice for stormtroopers especially.

don't forget that the infiltration ability increases their damage by another 25%

You can have that buff, a 15% buff from the other libby ability (might of titan), and another 20% buff from mind blades (global ability).

Mind blades and shrouding also increase their ranged damage, which is crazy vs light infantry if you went for the incinerator.

[Sub_Zero]

What about to give ranged terminators melee resistance aura? It seems really strange when tacs and chaos marines have it and terminators don't. And even more strange when T1 slugga boyz or t1 storm boyz force them to back away.
Presuming your arguments against my suggestion I will answer in advance.
Yes, they do have 4500 hp/3750 hp of super heavy armor but you can't really overextend them since they have no retreat option (speed 4) and cost insane amounts of resources. And if they don't lose a model they spend a lot of time on healing near the base.
No, you should not be able to counter them with T1-T2 infantry in toe-to-toe fight.
Yes, of course with support they will kick asses but what unit won't?
If 4500 hp/3750 hp squads with super heavy armor and x3 33 heavy melee dps will be broken then what about monsters with 4500 hp of super heavy armor and 3x 70 power melee dps (and we presume that they act defensively)?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Paladins are "fine" at the moment. With GK Librarian and Brother Captain support they become into a trolololololo squad.

Paladins don't need buffs. Maybe some nerfs if Caeltos include more units (the future Dreadknight) into the GK T3.

Ranged Terminators (Chaos and SM ones) are supposed to be countered by power_melee squads, so give Melee Resistance to ranged Terminators Aura will reduce a lot the effectivness of the power_melee squads.

Having Melee Resistance Aura in LC/Thunder Hammers & Stormshields Terminators is fine because: a) It's their role and b) They can't put pressure in range, being a more deffensive squad. The exception here are the GK Terminators/Paladins, with Melee Resistance Aura, good melee damage and decent ranged damage.