Vindicate Assassin

[Raffa]

I've been testing this unit a lot this last week. A few questions before my assessment so far:

1. It seems like he's getting infiltration, what's the plan for this? Infiltrate while still, toggle infiltration, etc..
2. Thoughts from everyone on giving him a damage modifier vs sniper fire? Currently he drops in 2 shots which is too easy to kill.
3. Can someone technically minded (Lulgrim?) plz give me the details on his sniper rifle and sight radius?

[Kvek]

From what i heard, he should infiltrate while in light/heavy cover.

ps. it's vindicare

[Nuclear Arbitor]

last i heard his performance versus snipers was intentional.

[Torpid]

Yes, his performance vs snipers is intentional, also he has 40 sight radius IIRC, it is definitely much lower than other sniper units.

[xerrol nanoha]

Thoughts from everyone on giving him a damage modifier vs sniper fire? Currently he drops in 2 shots which is too easy to kill.?

If the Vindicare has 325 hp to start with, and Ranger muskets hit for 160, wouldn't that take 3 shots to kill?

[Caeltos]

Thoughts from everyone on giving him a damage modifier vs sniper fire? Currently he drops in 2 shots which is too easy to kill.?

If the Vindicare has 325 hp to start with, and Ranger muskets hit for 160, wouldn't that take 3 shots to kill?

It's 2 from scouts, 3 from rangers.

The (health+) upgrade more or less makes him able to survive the 2 shots from scouts, and makes him able to take 2 ranger shots as well. It's more of an insurance upgrade to survive a burst, but he'll still go down terribly low, making it a risky factor to still stay in the fight.

[Raffa]

OK here we go...

Theory & Design
GK had the weakest AV of any race: they relied on kiting las-rhinos and relying on a light vehicle for your AV is not a good idea in my books, even if it can be effective. The Vindicare helps solve this problem by his high-damage AV rounds. He also adds serious bleeding power; this is more than any other sniper unit yes, but from a T2 unit that basically needs 60 power investment in total, and is possibly the most micro-intensive unit in the game, this seems totally fine and actually rather nicely implemented.

Cost/efficiency
Without sounding elitist, the effectiveness of this unit is proportional to the ability of the player to micro him at long-range and retreat/kite perfectly. This is absolutely key when measuring how good he is as he is the ultimate glasscannon - he requires a lot of attention from the controlling player to keep him alive but he really is a great passive-aggressive unit, harassing infantry and often forcing your opponent to rush his moves. And he functions as serious but also a very expensive T2 AV option. Because of this vulnerability even with his hp/regen upgrade, he needs to be able to hit hard and he does that - I mean jesus christ he is seriously threatened by any ranged unit that can target him, while jump units, teleporting heroes, infiltrating heroes and in fact anything that deals decent burst damage (*hint* counter-snipers) equal an already-prepared counter-initiation from the GK player, or a retreat for the VA.

AV
Biggest bone of contention over this unit. Put simply, I could accept a small damage tweak but that's it - he is strong, but he is meant to be strong as long-range AV yes? And is he really that much better than other races' AV? And isn't this GK, whose T2 AV is close to nonexistent without him? (answers: yes, no, yes)

General comments
I don't like him having a 25-power upgrade that is a must-buy and only buffs hp/regen: aren't only a few T1 hero wargears meant to do that? However this wargear is essential for survivability as it protects him against ranged fire while he's retreating (trust me, this is the death of him without the wargear). I would like to see toggled infiltration on the VA, to force some energy management with his 50 energy ability. I can see why people are annoyed facing this unit, but snipers piss opponents off all the time and the VA seems like an easy target because a) he is the best and b) he is not the SM sniper :p

I'd reduce original cost to 350/30, adjust upgrade cost to 75/35 and tie infiltration, extra hp and regen to that extra upgrade.

[Torpid]

I don't want his massive anti-transport ass out on the field even earlier, if that happens he should have to buy a separate upgrade to get AV rounds. The main problem I have with the VA is that he makes transport play vs gk a waste of time, like the brightlance wraithlord, but instead of costing 140 power he costs, what, is it 30 power?

[Indrid]

The upgrade is 100/20 iirc, not xxx/25.

[xerrol nanoha]

If the big problem is the Vindicare Assassin zoning out transport play, then we should look at ways of making the Vindicare better against melee vehicles and weaker against transports in general.

For instance, either reducing the damage or reducing the snare time would give transports more opportunity to escape. Alternatively, reducing AV attack RANGE would also serve that purpose while allowing the Vindicare to remain strong vs walkers. (that latter is probably the best solution at the moment).

One could also use a damage system similar to suppression platforms: damage dealt by AV attacks could be relative to the distance of the shot, where longer range is less damage and shorter range is more damage.

[crazyman64335]

If the big problem is the Vindicare Assassin zoning out transport play, then we should look at ways of making the Vindicare better against melee vehicles and weaker against transports in general.

For instance, either reducing the damage or reducing the snare time would give transports more opportunity to escape. Alternatively, reducing AV attack RANGE would also serve that purpose while allowing the Vindicare to remain strong vs walkers. (that latter is probably the best solution at the moment).

One could also use a damage system similar to suppression platforms: damage dealt by AV attacks could be relative to the distance of the shot, where longer range is less damage and shorter range is more damage.

the main problem gk are having is with tanks i hear. so reducing the range would kinda fuck the point of the VA

[Raffa]

the main problem gk are having is with tanks i hear. so reducing the range would kinda fuck the point of the VA

Precisely - nerf VA and you're back to relying on paladins for AV...

He provides the long range snare that is pretty much mandatory for vehicle hunting in T2 as it synergises with psycannons and the Dreadnought, both of which kind of aren't long-range

[Torpid]

Yeah, and walkers have never really been much of a problem for GK, melee ones at least. I think the best solution is to just stall his AV potential, ultimately the VA should come out before tanks but after transports. So how about making his AV rounds an additional upgrade, one that costs 20 power say, all in all I think it would do a good job at balancing him out becuase he's too effective for his cost out of the gate atm.

[Sub_Zero]

Of course he is. That is so annoying when a little bastard hurts your tanks all the time. And no setup time makes him a hard target to catch. He has the be the worst in terms of damage amongst all setup AV teams. Atm devastators with the lascannon is the worst setup team in the game.

[SirSid]

Im really having fun with him.

Liking him whare he is to ATM. He can sometimes be a "make-it-or-break-it" unit however i find.

Id like to see 2 new upgrades for him

1) a dedicated personal wepon , losses the AV but gains splash damage on hit

2) spec ops pack , gain infiltration land mines ( hurts all targets mabey make it insta gib evreyhting like chatachan explosives )

picking 1 disalows the other

[Orkfaeller]

Im really having fun with him.

Liking him whare he is to ATM. He can sometimes be a "make-it-or-break-it" unit however i find.

Id like to see 2 new upgrades for him

1) a dedicated personal wepon , losses the AV but gains splash damage on hit

Not sure what a dedicated, personal weapon is supposed to be ( a pistol ? a melee weapon ? ) but since the Vindicare Assassin usses Scout bones, and those only have animations for three different kind of rifles, thats not going to be possible.

2) spec ops pack , gain infiltration land mines ( hurts all targets mabey make it insta gib evreyhting like chatachan explosives )

picking 1 disalows the other

Vindi is going to get an Infiltration upgrade with the next ( bigger ) update.
But nooo landmines. He is a Sniper. A master marsman. A high precission Assassin.

Hes not running around laying trip wire.

[SirSid]

Im really having fun with him.

Liking him whare he is to ATM. He can sometimes be a "make-it-or-break-it" unit however i find.

Id like to see 2 new upgrades for him

1) a dedicated personal wepon , losses the AV but gains splash damage on hit

Not sure what a dedicated, personal weapon is supposed to be ( a pistol ? a melee weapon ? ) but since the Vindicare Assassin usses Scout bones, and those only have animations for three different kind of rifles, thats not going to be possible.

2) spec ops pack , gain infiltration land mines ( hurts all targets mabey make it insta gib evreyhting like chatachan explosives )

picking 1 disalows the other

Vindi is going to get an Infiltration upgrade with the next ( bigger ) update.
But nooo landmines. He is a Sniper. A master marsman. A high precission Assassin.

Hes not running around laying trip wire.

All right that's cool

I would like to see more upgrades than the HP buff 1 cuz it is a must buy upgrade, right now he's always stock

[David-CZ]

What about giving him something like an invisible beacon that he could place all over the map providing a small sight radius around it. No pop cap but a limit of (add number here)? And of course it could be destroyed once spotted.

[Lag]

Why?

[David-CZ]

Just an idea to what he could get as an upgrade.

[Orkfaeller]

Not sure if he needs its ( propably not ) but I think its an interessting idea.

The Vindi is a bit "bland" imho right now.

[Sub_Zero]

The Vindi is a bit "bland" imho right now.

What do you mean?

[Raffa]

When is he going to be in black? o.O

[xerrol nanoha]

When is he going to be in black? o.O

That's gonna be a huge buff, he'll blend in with the untextured dark reapers :p

[Flash]

When some one finishes what I started or after finals are over

[Sub_Zero]

I had a game when I 3-shotted a razorback with this little fella. And when I was doing so I noticed that rear armor hits were not registered but he hit that razorback's rear armor 2 times. What can explain it? And still think that little guy has to have the least av damage among all setup teams since it is really nuts to take out tanks and other vehicles just like that

[Forestradio]

I had a game when I 3-shotted a razorback with this little fella. And when I was doing so I noticed that rear armor hits were not registered but he hit that razorback's rear armor 2 times. What can explain it? And still think that little guy has to have the least av damage among all setup teams since it is really nuts to take out tanks and other vehicles just like that

I one hit a manticore once with his buff up and a rear armor hit

[Ace of Swords]

I had a game when I 3-shotted a razorback with this little fella. And when I was doing so I noticed that rear armor hits were not registered but he hit that razorback's rear armor 2 times. What can explain it? And still think that little guy has to have the least av damage among all setup teams since it is really nuts to take out tanks and other vehicles just like that

I one hit a manticore once with his buff up and a rear armor hit

I almost one shotted a manti in front armor with his buff + libby inf, if I had purged or used the global I would have oneshotted it on the front.

[Sub_Zero]

But that global increases melee damage by 20% and increases melee skill, doesn't it?

[Forestradio]

But that global increases melee damage by 20% and increases melee skill, doesn't it?

I used to think that too, but no

it increases ALL damage by 20% and melee skill by 10