IG Balance Assessment

[Faultron]

plasma GM and the tank though ... you can't kill the tank before you have to retreat. maybe with the farseer and time slow.

i meant as eldar u cant beat IG T3 tanks without Wraithguard,(besides eldrich storm)
other tactics are just worse i think or not cost effective

Uh Doesn't Eldar has plentiful stuff to kill Tanks? Fire prisms/FD/Brightlance/Wraithguards/WL with BL addition to all those stacked buffs from FS/Warp throw/Phase shift into Storm on IG blobbies . So Oftenly Wraithguard being favored unit vs IG, Eldar has no shortage of AOE abilities/Set-ups to deal with IG

yes they have plentiful stuff...
but i think you forgot to read what situation we were talking.

[saltychipmunk]

I don't get why the ig sarge upgrade costs 0 power

for the amount of raw hp it adds to the squad and the 2 member reinforce effect, one would think it would warrant adding 10 power to their cost.

i think that is the source of the ig most unfair attribute.


every other race in the entire game needs to pay power to buff the hp pool and effectiveness of their starting squads.

whether or not said squads do more is irrelevant , what is relevant is the fact that no power cost on the ig sarge upgrade enables the ig to
1 have their squad upgrades by the first engagement
2 have a power advantage over other races amounting anywhere from 20 - 50 power

an important point to know about the whole ig sentinel synergy is that it is nearly unbeatable in the first engagement , the fact that the power less sarge upgrade adds 50% more hp to the ig squad means they have a massive hp advantage over every other race that they can simply use to grind down opponents.


we need something to delay it so that they don't get such a clear first encounter advantage.

[Sub_Zero]

I agree with you. It is really hard to beat IG in the first fight. Especially if they have a sentinel arround.

[Dark Riku]

Adding a 10 power cost to the sarges will seriously screw IG economy up.

[Kvek]

And gms are pretty much useless in combat without sergeants, they can't survive anything, and their dps output without sarge is pretty crap too

[Sub_Zero]

And that is right as well. Maybe 5 power cost will do?

[Kvek]

And that is right as well. Maybe 5 power cost will do?

Well, they already have that sentinel stomp for 15 power and that's a lot, i would just increase the build time of sarge.

[Dark Riku]

I really don't think they should get a nerf in any way. They are fine as they are right now.

[Commissar Yarrick]

I'm sorry brake it to you Torpid but how I see it. The problem is not with the IG but you.
I could do this kind of thread about Nids and GK but when I think it further I see it as pointless enterprise. Why? Because this is how the game/races works. Each side has their strengths and weaknesses and one must learn how to act depending the situation. If simple by the book tactics do not work then use the surroundings to your advantage.

I can understand your frustration more than anyone but this is not how to deal with it. The sooner you accept it the sooner you get better at fighting this "IG menace" on the field of battle.

This is not meant to insult you in any way.

[Charerg]

I agree with Riku that IG are in a pretty good position. Now, I confess that I haven't watched that many IG games recently, but I'm not just seeing the IG opness.

Spotters are good, but their abilities are the only "combat value" they offer. And the abilities are evadable, and cause mostly disruption instead of damage.

So, I guess what I mean is that if IG somehow pulls an amazing series of victories in the next tournament or something like that I'll admit to being wrong. But atm, I feel that IG aren't up there as the "strongest race" or anything like that, and nerfing some units based on mostly theorycrafting isn't the way to go.

[Lag]

I don't get why the ig sarge upgrade costs 0 power

for the amount of raw hp it adds to the squad and the 2 member reinforce effect, one would think it would warrant adding 10 power to their cost.

i think that is the source of the ig most unfair attribute.


every other race in the entire game needs to pay power to buff the hp pool and effectiveness of their starting squads.

whether or not said squads do more is irrelevant , what is relevant is the fact that no power cost on the ig sarge upgrade enables the ig to
1 have their squad upgrades by the first engagement
2 have a power advantage over other races amounting anywhere from 20 - 50 power

an important point to know about the whole ig sentinel synergy is that it is nearly unbeatable in the first engagement , the fact that the power less sarge upgrade adds 50% more hp to the ig squad means they have a massive hp advantage over every other race that they can simply use to grind down opponents.


we need something to delay it so that they don't get such a clear first encounter advantage.

They drop models like flies, greatly reducing their firepower throughout the battle. You are basically paying for the Sarge to make them usable at all, and even with the Sarge they are cannon fodder more often than not. The only problem with the first engagements is the Sentinel. If you engage an IG in first engagement you should ignore the Sent and just go for the GM squads.

[Torpid]

Sergeants are quite clearly fine at the moment. You have to understand that IG function very differently from the other races, you will lose the first engagement and map control (1v1 context) if play offensively, but not defensively (unless you're orks/eldar), essentially you need to change your positioning to be more defensive and based on ninja-ashes and flanks. Flanks deal with sentinels relatively effectively and sniper units counter everything in the IG t1 and t2 bar guardsmen+chimeras. So clearly you're already switching up your macro plan significantly. You can't fight IG in a straight-up ranged fight, but you get all these others methods of controlling them, AOE, suppression and artillery all do good, much more so than they do vs other races.

[saltychipmunk]

but all those methods are just as good vs other races


grenades launchers? will kill guardians just as fast as ig (they have similar hp pools 100 per model) gaunts have less hp per model and are even more vulnerable
marines are vulnerable to the plasma damage type .

ig has two units that fully counter suppression in t1 cats and the arty spotters

most races only have one or a soft counter or two

arty nukes everything

[Torpid]

but all those methods are just as good vs other races


grenades launchers? will kill guardians just as fast as ig (they have similar hp pools 100 per model) gaunts have less hp per model and are even more vulnerable
marines are vulnerable to the plasma damage type .

ig has two units that fully counter suppression in t1 cats and the arty spotters

most races only have one or a soft counter or two

arty nukes everything

No, definitely not. Other races will gain too much map control if you play defensively against them. IG on the other hand have terrible capping power (the worst in the entire game) this is because one of their units in t1, namely the sentinel cannot cap, it can only de-cap and if you play defensive them it isn't doing that. Furthermore all IG units bar catachans lose 1v1 fights, so they make terrible cappers. If you cap with catachans in t1 then your main army is going to get destroyer since catachans cost 60 power and you're not using that in main fights? Essentially you're letting them get 2 extra suppression teams vs you while you get 1 capping unit... Add to the fact that IG units suck at fighting 1v1 that they are also slow and you realise IG are terrible cappers, this is why highly defensive play works so well against them without losing map control.

IG want to try and maximise the amount of bleed they can cause to you in order to win, while teching up to t2 which is where they can use medic-bunkers/chimeras/commissar execute to ensure they never leave the field and therefore they get map presence back, also catachans in t2 can afford to go off and cap because you get new linebreakers in the form of manticores/chimeras/ogryns. If you cap aggressively vs IG you're playing into their hands because they can bleed you with sentinel play and their superior ranged damage then blob-charge your power farm and take it out with turrets/HWT play, they tech first and they win, despite having inferior map control (especially as the inquisitor as they can get the bane wolf).

Regarding AOE most other races have a counter to it - eldar get banshees who can charge in and tie up your GLs while rangers control suppression, nades control melee alongside war shout. Nids have barbed warriors and their heroes (RA can just flank and run around you in circles), orks have excellent FOTM, but nonetheless their jump units are weak and GLs are very strong against them because of that. SM obviously get OP ASM, so GL tics are pretty useless vs them. IG suck vs suppression as they lack melee units/nades/snipers/jump units and instead just get soft counters that themselves can't deal with suppression, so if you layer your suppression and position yourself correctly you can always repel an IG attack easily, the problem however is when you're pushing forward and you meet the IG who is doing the same, in that case the hero+spotters will swiftly deal with all the suppression and the ranged firepower will overwhelm you, which again, is why defensive play is key. If they can't force off the suppression the aoe obviously destroys them, and despite GM having equal health to guardians, guardians get shields and GM have more models and so they are going to lose a higher proportion of their health per AOE attack. That's what I'm getting at. We all know eldar are glass mirrors, but IG as race are hurt disproportionately compared to other races by AOE due to their massive model count.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

but all those methods are just as good vs other races


grenades launchers? will kill guardians just as fast as ig (they have similar hp pools 100 per model) gaunts have less hp per model and are even more vulnerable
marines are vulnerable to the plasma damage type .

ig has two units that fully counter suppression in t1 cats and the arty spotters

most races only have one or a soft counter or two

arty nukes everything

Catachans are a very soft (dare I say, weak?) counter to set up teams (this is aside from the fact that they are, 9/10, the worst buy an IG player can make). Enough so that even if you can't know em back with the (not-so) reliable, you wont be able to close the distance to lock 'em in melee, leaving you left with dps'ing the setup team before it resets - not an easy and often impossible task.

Your other comments are highly situational. Gaunts get ripped by just about any squad that knocks em down from range, but the ideal situation is that you're not leading the charge with gaunts without some sort of support. If you have something like a Hive Tyrant running ahead of the charge, gaunts easily overcome that weakness and actually end up shining when getting in to close quarters (obviously).

If anything, to include a power cost to sergeants would be a huge nerf to IG.

[SirSid]

I would say chatachans are a hard counter to set up teams , they have 2 ... 2 knockback effects 1 at long range 1 at mid range and are devistating in melley combat.

Thare range DPS is very high as well.

A tiny bit of micro and not only do they counter set up teams but they DSP enemey army while doing it .

[Sub_Zero]

No and no. I don't like all these definitions such as hard, soft or fluffy counter but here I have to use it. Catachans are a soft counter. They can't force off a set-up team on their own. Unless you are very lucky (disrupt them before they supress you and then force melee using shotgun blast) and there are no support for that set-up team. I use catachans as melee units these days. "Go, go, go!" ability of the Lord General helps greatly (and medkits of course to keep them alive).

[Commissar Yarrick]

Hah... Inspire Determination Cats are way better
Put Loyal to the end and Aura of discipline and you get a P-melee to be reckoned with.
I have dealt with many HI armies this way only to loose em as lv4 to one unlucky plasma dev shot or anything in the like.

My point being: The catachans are as good as you make them out to be. But emperor protect you if you dare to send em in alone anywhere.

[Dark Riku]

I agree with Riku that IG are in a pretty good position.

That's not exactly what I said ^^

you will lose the first engagement and map control (1v1 context) if play offensively,

That's not true ~

Furthermore all IG units bar catachans lose 1v1 fights, so they make terrible cappers.

Tell that to scouts. Even against other units that isn't true depending on positioning.

SM obviously get OP ASM,

IG suck vs suppression as they lack melee units/nades/snipers/jump units and instead just get soft counters that themselves can't deal with suppression,

IG deals with suppression just fine. Especially now with the spotters who are
a hard counter to suppression teams and ranged blobs.

They can't force off a set-up team on their own. Unless you are very lucky (disrupt them before they supress you and then force melee using shotgun blast) and there are no support for that set-up team.

So they can force of a setup team on their own...

[Commissar Vocaloid]

IG suck vs suppression as they lack melee units/nades/snipers/jump units and instead just get soft counters that themselves can't deal with suppression,

IG deals with suppression just fine. Especially now with the spotters who are
a hard counter to suppression teams and ranged blobs.

With no understatement on the hard counter. They are fucking ridiculous. So much so that it's actually crazy to think someone would pick Catachans over Spotters for setup team counters.

[Torpid]

Ok well, I concur, I agree with in that spotters are extremely good, but that's my problem actually. Spotters are absurdly good and they overcompensate for IGs otherwise lack of suppression counters. I don't like this, I feel like I'm forced to get spotters anytime somebody goes 2x suppression against me and you see even if I get spotters if they play defensively against me they can just use the suppression to gain map control in t1 where I can't really push against them due to my not having plasma guns and they can't push against me due to them not having the damage to focus down my hero.

Like I said I think they should have a larger cooldown on their abilities and/or a energy cost on them. In return catachans need some changes, another issue I have is with the sentinel stomp. It recently got nerfed to only stun models that it hits rather than squads. Yet I very rarely found it worth paying 15 power to get it when it stunned squads, now it's pretty pointless in most MUs bar nids and SM who get ASM, I personally think 10 power for the stomp would be enough.