Important balance stuff

[Bahamut]

IS There Valid Reasons why i don't see UYC/Warp Vomit & Warpath in THE List ?

UYC for 75 red is Making an awful joke for FTE/MB . Warp vomit the Duration is still LONG ,Shutting down Infantries with a flick of a Hotkey ,rendering them unable to Escape like Terminators , that Debuff by Vomit makes Terminator significantly weaken & Vulnerable for UYC Sluggaz/Nobz & Frenzy in Conjunction w Warpath could Potentially wipe the Termies even if they teleported further ahead ,no doubt Over dere/Warpath would catch em. Maybe reduce the radius of Vomit to a Squad-affected and shorten its duration span . UYC, Buff the Red increase to 100 & shorten its CD to 45-50 seconds?

Still , Weirdboy's abilities some of which are still effectively powerful for such little energy usage, his Regeneration of Warrrgh is Fine.

this things are definetly OP i agree.

There's absolutely no need for warp vomit to last for more than 4 seconds, it's pretty much an instant engagement winner... every engagement

UYC/AB are IMO too cheap for orks, 100 red per seems fitting. There's also the more dakka global for mekboy, that lets the squad do KB

[Forestradio]

In regards to giving the Chaos sorceror a new weapon:

How about something like a hellblade (bloodletters fiery sword)? Power melee weapon in T2 that grants an ability similar to mind war/hammer of the witches to help him control powerful melee heroes.

He can use one in last stand, so there shouldn't be any animation/model issues.


In regards to Feeder Tendrils:

This wargear is OP in part because it scales so freaking well. It gives the LA 2 percent of his maximum health back with every attack. So that's around 12 health per attack at level one.

Now let's say later in the game, your LA is level five with an armor upgrade, and now it gives 16 health back per attack. Your LA should be leveling quickly, because flesh hook kills a model basically every engagement.

That may not seem like a big difference, but the LA also has three other things going for him: his insanely quick attack speed, lone hunter(receives 25 percent less damage from ALL sources) and the infiltration ranged damage resistance(when partially revealed).

The fix to this is make Feeder Tendrils only give a fixed amount of health back per attack (say around 10 hp) instead of a percentage to stop it from scaling so well and making the LA unkillable.

[Raffa]

I play the PC and Sorcerer much more often than CL because they're more fun. But for competitive games CL all the way, in any game mode.

Flesh Hook could be a stun instead of knockback? I suggested the 120/30 + T2 change for Tendrils a few weeks ago.

You've basically just organised everything that is acknowledged as unbalanced. That being said, I agree with all you've said Tex.

[Charerg]

I disagree with nerfing Doom. Or even nerfing Mark Target, for that matter. Yes, the abilities are powerful, but these aren't offensive heroes we're talking about.

The Farseer, for example, has the combat effectiveness of an Apothecary without upgrades. Why would anyone choose this hero over the Warlock, if the one reason for playing her (powerful abilities) turn into "meh" abilities?

And frankly I just don't see this Doom overperformance, in fact it is pretty rare for any wargear to be bought for the Farseer, at least in T1. Also in practice the Farseer will rarely have enough energy to use more than 2 abilities per engagement. All in all, I feel that Doom is pretty balanced. The Farseer is a support hero, so her abilities should have an impact.

[Torpid]

Of course a new gun would be a great addition into his arsenal but will it fit his role?

Just look at all his wargears, you will notice that almost all of them allow him to counter melee units. 1) Bile spewer allows him to control melee units and heroes by slowing them and snaring their movement with the ability. 2) Sword of undeath allows him to decimate heavy infantry squads and other jump units (ignores melee resistance) 3) Power fist allows him to decline effectivness of ALL jump units, your setup team will not be harmed at all. Grenades act as a great melee deterrent, mark of nurgle means that no melee unit will survive (especially with high model count) and his armors also give defensive bonuses. It can be used offensivily, no doubts, but primarily he is the best melee counter in the game. Use the standart bolter unless you have some melee units against you that give you troubles.

And that is the difference between the CL and him. The Chaos Lord is supposed to be used offensively (his wargears allow him to tank damage, disrupt enemy lines, weapons do insanely high damage) and the Plague Champion is supposed to be used defensively.

Great, except a defensive LTGB on suppressed shit is more effective than a blight grenade while simultaneously being far better at offence. The blood maul counter-initiates better against melee since it doesn't make your ranged blob do hardly any damage throughout the stun effect. The combi bolter makes the CL do more ranged damage than the PC and the CL is naturally a good melee deterrent due to his hp/immunity to kb and KTW. The only thing that the PC can do that the CL can't is 1) Turrets [which are awesome btw, especially his AV turret], 2) bile spewer [the combi flamer does do the same thing slightly more situationally though] and 3) Touch of Nurgle, but I do feel bloodlust/blood sacrifice/malignant blindness combined do better than ToN, or at the very least just as good.

Also Farseer's doom is fine.

[Tex]

In response to a few things that I have read:

1) UYC costs 100 red and Ardboyz costs 75 red. Saying that these abilities are OP after the numerous nerfs that they have taken is ridiculous. Please do a little research.

UYC is still potent for sure, but it increases melee damage done by less (I think it is 40 or 35% now?) than retail value, and it also grants a lower melee skill bonus than retail, which was actually 60!
If UYC is 100% effective when used, then you are not microing well, if UYC is spammable, then you are feeding the warboss red. You can expect to see it a few times a game, but if you see it in every engagement, then surely you need to look in the mirror to point blame.

Ardboyz's costs 75 red and reduces incoming damage by 25%. This ability is the exact converse of For the Emperor which costs 75 red and improves outgoing damage by 25%. Saying that this global is implemented incorrectly sounds like a hasty judgement made from an isolated experience where you probably let it beat you.

*** On a small side note, Spiky armor now offers too much for this armor to only cost 20 power. I like where it stacks up right now, and I would still gladly pay for it at a price of 120-25. But currently it is the best armor in the 20 power cost category by too great of a margin.***

2) The RA only gets power_melee splash damage in T2, get your facts strait please. Also, if he gets his regenerate armor, then use knockback or suppression to melt him. If he gets his knockback resistant armor, then use suppression to stall him and then of course, melt him. If he gets his burrowing armor, then get detectors and... yup, you guessed it, focus fire and melt him.

3) LTGB shouldn't cost 200-50. That's a cost reserved for things like the FC powerfist. I am saying however that LTGB almost single handedly ruins the internal balance of chaos commanders.

4) Warp vomit recently received a duration nerf and I don't think reducing the duration further is the best solution. I went into great detail about this in a different thread that I don't have the time to go dig up at this moment, but in short form, it would basically crush any chances that Ork T2 would have against the T3 of any other race. What I think needs to happen is a complete overhaul of the costing for weirdboy upgrades and perhaps his base cost. I will go into detail about this as I add to my master list.

5) Doom is pretty intense in T1. Now that I know this causes 40% increased damage received, the abillity needs to be toned down or it needs to cost more energy so that it is harder to pair up with guide. I don't find it to be insanely op on its on, but because I can easily pair it with guide (sequence goes, force unit to engage shurikan, guide banshees and doom jump unit, focus fire jump unit, jump unit dies horrible death) I think this needs attention.

[Bahamut]

thing with UYC is the squads it usually buffs compare to the squads FTE usually buffs. On the top of my head the deadliest thing you can buff in the SM roster would be a pdev squad for some damage spikes, if SM had sluggas or stormboys, FTE would be OP as well

Dunno why people are hating on acid splatter, 41 power melee dps is quite a low value for a hero's wargear

And for endless swarm, IMO it's fine for the most part but it needs to increase the squad's population and match the upkeep to 10 models per squad once it's purchased

[Kvek]

UYC costs 75 red

Use Yer Choppas! cost decreased from 100 to 75 Waaagh!
Use Yer Choppas! cooldown increased from 50 to 120 seconds
Use Yer Choppas! damage bonus decreased from 40% to 35%

-changelog

[Tex]

my bad then, last time I used UYC it was still 100 red and that wasnt a long time ago

[Torpid]

Doom is pretty intense in T1. Now that I know this causes 40% increased damage received, the abillity needs to be toned down or it needs to cost more energy so that it is harder to pair up with guide. I don't find it to be insanely op on its on, but because I can easily pair it with guide (sequence goes, force unit to engage shurikan, guide banshees and doom jump unit, focus fire jump unit, jump unit dies horrible death) I think this needs attention.

Or you could just mind war the jump unit and nade them, not requiring spending so much resources on banshees that just end up babysitting your other units and also not spending the resources on doom, so you can get some of her other weapon choices and also not spending the energy on doom/guide on shees/jump units so you can guide you shuriken to deal with their entire army from afar.

On another note the only change I would like to see to UYC would be a slight duration decrease. When you use FTE on SM squads you're often going for something verydifferent than when you use UYC on your sluggas/storms. FTE is more AV orientated since it affects ranged damage, it also synergises nicely with flesh over steel, but even against infantry FTE flamer tacs are insanely powerful in t1, or FTE hellfire sterns against LI.

And if I haven't already said so I agree with everything Tex has posted on the first page quite strongly bar making toxin sacs more expensive as I think that's an integral part of nid play (namely their t1 pressure) and I think more of the issue lies in the lack of sunk costs for the endless swarm upgrade and the fact it makes 8pop squads easily out-perform ~12pop squads, from a purely military perspective as well as an economic one.

[Vapor]

Or you could just mind war the jump unit and nade them

This. Anybody who argues that doom is too good for counter initiation needs to remember that many commanders, including the Farseer, have better ways of doing it that don't require simultaneously dedicating a melee unit to the task. The Farseer is good at defensive shuriken play, get used to it.

[Asmon]

There is no coherence in the previous message.

Basically, I read it as if, because there is another way to do something instead of something else in one particular situation, leading to similar results, Doom should not be nerfed.

Is Doom only used to counter-initiate? No. Is Mind War a similar ability? No. Is it also a weapon that could be compared to the Doombringer? No, it's an accessory.

There is always a bigger picture that requires our attention but sometimes we don't need to look at it before noticing something is wrong.

Doom gives +40% damage in T1. I believe it is too much. If you do too, say it. Otherwise, say you don't. Anyway, please do not bring data that is not only irrelevant but also flirts with absurdity.

I would give Doom a +30% damage taken. And the same for Mark Target, with a bigger cast range.

[Vapor]

There is no coherence in the previous message.

Basically, I read it as if, because there is another way to do something instead of something else in one particular situation, leading to similar results, Doom should not be nerfed.

Is Doom only used to counter-initiate? No. Is Mind War a similar ability? No. Is it also a weapon that could be compared to the Doombringer? No, it's an accessory.

No, I think you need to go back and read my posts again. My point was that doom is not OP for the purposes of counter initiation, and that there are many things that accomplish the same goal better and cheaper. However, it does have other uses which are uniquely powerful, e.g. killing walkers, terminators, superunits, etc. which are very vulnerable to increased dmg taken. I think the fact that you can buy a t1 wargear in t3 and use it to fuck up superunits is absurd.

Again, read my posts again, I think a nerf to 30% is entirely reasonable and I said so in an earlier post. I think going below 25% runs the risk of making the wargear too shitty to buy at current cost.

[Broodwich]

Ardboyz's costs 75 red and reduces incoming damage by 25%. This ability is the exact converse of For the Emperor which costs 75 red and improves outgoing damage by 25%. Saying that this global is implemented incorrectly sounds like a hasty judgement made from an isolated experience where you probably let it beat you.

Saying that reducing incoming damage by 25% is the exact convert as improving outgoing damage by 25% sounds like a hasty judgement

[Sub_Zero]

Spam of global abilities for orks is an usual thing while other races have to be careful with gained red resource. Really when I play as the WB I can afford to use at least one ability per an engagement. And his globals influence on battle very significantly and cannot be countered since they are straight up buffs for units. Kinda press to win buttons. Raising their cost we'll stop this spam and players will have to judge better where to use them and not just press them every time.
Also nobz won't be such a pain. For 225 red you buff them (they are alredy very killy and tanky) to pretty much any fight and defeat even a great army. Yeah, 225 sounds like a lot but for orks it is not the case.

[Vapor]

Spam of global abilities for orks is an usual thing while other races have to be careful with gained red resource. Really when I play as the WB I can afford to use at least one ability per an engagement. And his globals influence on battle very significantly and cannot be countered since they are straight up buffs for units. Kinda press to win buttons. Raising their cost we'll stop this spam and players will have to judge better where to use them and not just press them every time.
Also nobz won't be such a pain. For 225 red you buff them (they are alredy very killy and tanky) to pretty much any fight and defeat even a great army. Yeah, 225 sounds like a lot but for orks it is not the case.

What is the natural red generation rate for Orkz? It's pretty slow iirc but I have never paid attention to the actual number. In any case, a lot of Ork abilities that would cost energy for other races cost red instead, so in the long term I'm not sure if red is much easier to come by for Orkz. Someone fill me in please.

[KanKrusha]

I posted a suggestion elsewhere a sugestion that the warp vomit duration could be reduced if the zzap was reworked so that it debuffed the target with extra damage and did not Jump from unit to unit (the anti-blob role of zzap is already covered by the weird boy's basic attack). This would mean Orks could still damage terminators.

Ork red regen is pretty fast but warboss uses it up real fast too. The other 2 heroes can accumulate it quite nicely which throws peoples expectations of what the warboss is capable of. Force a warboss player into tankbustas and he will use up all his red on barrage

[Charerg]

Doom gives +40% damage in T1. I believe it is too much. If you do too, say it. Otherwise, say you don't. Anyway, please do not bring data that is not only irrelevant but also flirts with absurdity.

I would give Doom a +30% damage taken. And the same for Mark Target, with a bigger cast range.

For comparison, the Farseer's starting ability, Guide, gives 30% damage and range to a unit for 10 seconds, and costs 40 energy.

Doom increases damage taken by 40% for 10 seconds, costs 50 energy.

Techmarine's Mark Tarket increases damage taken by 50% for 10 seconds, costs 40 energy.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you factor in the fact that the Farseer's starting ability also gives comparable buffs to Doom in it's present state, I don't think 40% is too much. Also it's 50 energy, so you can't really spam both Doom and Guide (with probably Fleet used at some point) until you get Rune Armor or Reaping Runes to increase the Seer's energy regeneration.

Besides, as I've already mentioned, the Farseer isn't exactly going to make a tremendous impact with her flimsy HP and base DPS. The reason for playing Seer is to use powerful support abilities. With that in mind, I think the Farseer should have stronger abilities than offensive heroes. Are Farseer's abilities really that great that they deserve a nerf?

And if so, is this actually based on gameplay, instead of some theorycrafting where you look at numbers and say "this is too much, clearly OP"?

[Faultron]

Farseer is the weakest hero in T1.Yes doom 40%, but eldar dont rly have real cc in T1.
rune armor makes her very vulnerable and mindwar also but not as bad.
(in teamgames doom ability is op yes)
so i would not nerf farseer's doom, TM mark target is more dangerous/effective and not cos of 50%, but different army and TM wargears in T1-T2.

[crazyman64335]

Spam of global abilities for orks is an usual thing while other races have to be careful with gained red resource. Really when I play as the WB I can afford to use at least one ability per an engagement. And his globals influence on battle very significantly and cannot be countered since they are straight up buffs for units. Kinda press to win buttons. Raising their cost we'll stop this spam and players will have to judge better where to use them and not just press them every time.
Also nobz won't be such a pain. For 225 red you buff them (they are alredy very killy and tanky) to pretty much any fight and defeat even a great army. Yeah, 225 sounds like a lot but for orks it is not the case.

225 red is a shitton in 1v1's, you're playing 3v3's so that isn't exactly what tex is referring to in his OP since he basically only plays 1v1s. And yes that does matter because in 3v3's there are more units to be killed, thus leading to more red. Playing a 1v1 vs noisy the other night as the WB and had to very specifically choose when to use the globals. So those abilities are fine in 1v1's imo

[Asmon]

And if so, is this actually based on gameplay, instead of some theorycrafting where you look at numbers and say "this is too much, clearly OP"?

This is based on gameplay. Doom has been in the game for years and always been too powerful, but FS abilities were much harder to spam before (along with the fact nobody mains FS at a decent level these days) so it was less of an issue. Now it needs to be toned down a bit.

Farseer is the weakest hero in T1.

As I said, it's been a while since I saw a high level FS play, which might be the reason why you're stating this. Which is absolutely wrong. FS is the best Eldar hero in 1v1 overall, and especially in T1.

[Bahamut]

225 red is a shitton in 1v1's, you're playing 3v3's so that isn't exactly what tex is referring to in his OP since he basically only plays 1v1s. And yes that does matter because in 3v3's there are more units to be killed, thus leading to more red. Playing a 1v1 vs noisy the other night as the WB and had to very specifically choose when to use the globals. So those abilities are fine in 1v1's imo

I have no clue of what those 225 are referring to. But UYC is 75 red, lasts for 25 seconds, gives 35% melee damage and 60 melee skill, and it's definitely too good

[Sub_Zero]

Fully buffed nobz - frenzy, hard boyz, use your choppaz

[Forestradio]

Fully buffed nobz - frenzy, hard boyz, use your choppaz

you counter this the way you counter any other nobz squad:

snares, knockback, suppression once frenzy has finished.

Meanwhile, he just wasted that red, can't drop a roks or a Call da boyz.

Every race is pretty well equipped to deal with nobz IMO, you just have to delay them, and make sure they can't get into melee (unless you have LC termies with a chaos lord or Force Commander, then you might be able to go toe to toe with them, assuming no barfing weirdboy is around).

[Sub_Zero]

And when my opponent counter my nobz I counter his counters.
He tries to supress them -> I use "Frenzy"
He tries to focus them down -> I use "Hard boyz"
He sends a strong melee unit against them -> I use "Use your choppaz"
I don't ask about how to counter them I just point out that nobz are VERY TANKY and VERY KILLY and have the ability that helps them to negate any pain your opponent tries to throw on them. And when your nobz have that support they will wreck everything and will bring you even more red. And if something goes wrong you just retreat them and your red resource gets wasted. But how often do you see nobz being ineffective especially under these buffs? What I do see that nobz win games and allow people to recover from even disgusting loses throughout T1-T2. I have witnessed that so many times. Nobz are the only unit that is viable in all MU and in all circumstances. And measures to hold them a bit won't go amiss (increased costs). And I think there is something to do with their instant reinforcing from "Call Da Boyz".

[Kvek]

He suppresses them, you use frenzy, he disrupts them and suppresses them.
but ofc he has his army

[Torpid]

Yes, let's use frenzy/UYC/AB and call da boyz in one engagement, so you're paying for a super unit in the form of fully upgraded nobs and using 475 in one engagement on the race which values red the highest.

Nobs are not viable in all circumstances and in all MUs that's absolute bullshit and I haven't heard such a silly comment in a long time. I dare you to use nobs vs a TM with plasma gun + mark target + dread + libby + sterns + devs and 2x shotty scouts. Or any nid composition which deals with your army and has genes. Or bionic eye catachans and a power sword LC, or an assail inq alongside a chim + 2x PG GM, or a LG with vox and double Ogryns and double PG GM. You're gonna fail horribly in any of those situations and there are way more.

[Sub_Zero]

Hey Torpid notice that I was talking about 225 red (all 3 buffs) per an engagement. From my game experience it is more than possible. Call da boyz is a different story.

I dare you to use nobs vs a TM with plasma gun + mark target + dread + libby + sterns + devs and 2x shotty scouts.

And I dare you to not bring here such silly examples. You are saying like I send my nobz against an army without my hero and units support.

You can defeat any army, no matters what it is contained of. Only two things matter - how you manage your units and how you make decisions.

Why I think nobz are viable? Because they have a lot of health, act as an anti-everything unit and capable of neglicting any threat by using the ability.

[Torpid]

Absolute rubbish. You're army isn't doing anything to that. The nobs are gonna have to spearheard it, VoT allows devs to counters torms and storms are forced off instantly due to dread+sterns + 2x shotties, shootas are simply not doing anything since I'm playing defence I just pull them back behind sterns, VoT devs force frenzy on nobs who then get stunned the by the dread then the stun wears off as does frnezy and they are mark targetting and have 2x shotty scouts+devs+smite+plasma gun overcharge + dread to deal with, AKA they are forced off instantly? What has your army done in the meantime maybe the shootas force off my sterns/scouts, but the dread isn't dying nor are the devs so you lose.

What you need to counter it is a looted tank alongside those storms, now that would do wonders vs my build, nobs however aren't doing jack for their price.

[Sub_Zero]

What do you try to achieve writting it? It goes a bit off-topic and you don't bring so much needed details. What is my hero? What is my army composition? And all upgrades/your units cost a hell of a lot. If you want to discuss it like that then please provide me with full information (that will take more than a half of an hour since I am interested in all costs etc). Do we really need it?