Can't stop wondering about catachans

[Sub_Zero]

Just had a game with 2x catachans in my army both at level 4. Almost owned a GUO in melee combat under LG's buffs (they were not able to chase him down) but that is not the thing I want to mention. After that fight my first squad was down to 2 models and the other one was down to 4 models. When I fully reinforced them one squad had 2395 hp and the other one had 2570 hp. Can't stop wondering about catachans...

[Caeltos]

What's your point?

[Sub_Zero]

They got really broken mechanic. There are tons of examples and I brought yet another one. I thought that would be interesting to know. I thought nobody had faced such thing. This thread might be used for similar examples.

P. S. Forgot to say that the squad with 2/9 models contained only leaders (sarge and demo man) and when was fully reinforced changed the health to a lower condition. Hence the grenade launcher guy caused this problem I believe.

[Kvek]

I killed an avatar with catas in retail, but if he got a good wailing doom/Wrath off they wouldn't do crap, just like with guo, if he gets a nice vomit off, he can even wipe them.

[Cheah18]

I dare ask, are catas too weak now?

They seem to be a HUGE resource commitment, especially given the time at which you buy them, for what you get IMO. In retail, sure, they were WAY WAY WAYYY OP, but have we got the balance right yet?

[Sub_Zero]

They are strong because they are still melee rapists in T1 and offer you tons of abilities and IG heroes can support them pretty damn well. I really don't find them bad despite people complaints.

[Torpid]

I dare ask, are catas too weak now?

I think so, I dare say despite them originally having seven models it's just too many for the role they are meant to have. It makes them way too susceptible to flamer attacks, any aoe and melee specials.

@Subzero Try sending your sluggas+painboy at banshees next time but don't use any painboy abilities - banshees op!

[Sub_Zero]

Ehm, what? Don't get your message.

[Bahamut]

I dare ask, are catas too weak now?

I think so, I dare say despite them originally having seven models it's just too many for the role they are meant to have. It makes them way too susceptible to flamer attacks, any aoe and melee specials.

I'd say spotters are too strong rather than catas being too weak. That's a balance issue tho and this is not the proper section to balance issues

But their role is what? anti melee? they got it. Anti blob? they got it. they can also break gen farms quite fast, smoke nade with no downside. Dunno where they are underperforming. Catas are a super duper shotgun scout squad dunno what's wrong with it

[Commissar Vocaloid]

The problem with Catas is their high costs and their susceptibility to AoE. A vanilla squad of Cata's have less HP then GM squad with (can't remember with/without sergeants on GMs) which requires an almost immediate invest to buy the demoman, which is a 60 power drain in T1.5. ON top of this, their performance into T2 and past is questionable at best. If you can do them justice in late game, kudos to you, but they're a powder keg unit in most cases and they either wipe or do very little past T1. By end game,I usually just have them running around laying IEDs.

[Bahamut]

so? scout have 420 hp as squad, and hey also need 40 power to make them viable in combat

[Kvek]

so? scout have 420 hp as squad, and hey also need 40 power to make them viable in combat

What ? Do you play SM ? Yes, scouts are squishy, and their starting dps is poor, but with shotguns they counter melee pretty well, do a lot of damage, and still have a fast movement speed, and you don't need t ospend 40 power to make them effective in combat...

[Bahamut]

Just like catachans.. except catachans are better but more expensive. What your point?

[Charerg]

Unlike Scouts, Catachans are SLOW. Catachans are Speed 5, they have no FotM (unlike Shotgun scouts), and they lack a charge (which makes them a crappy melee unit).

I don't know if Catas are underpowered or not, personally I think they suck, though I confess that may be personal preference to some extent, as I don't see Catachans having a purpose other than ruining your economy (they also cost more to reinforce than Scouts, are more vulnerable to AoE because of their formation and slow speed).

However, whatever else you're going to do, please don't compare Catachans and Scouts. Because that comparison just fails terribly, totally different units with a totally different role.

As to suggestions concerning what change I'd like to see with Catas, I don't think it's 100% necessary to decrease the model count in order to make them viable. However, I'd like them tailored to more of an "assault infantry" role, since that seems their intended role to me.

To fulfill that role, I think they need some extra mobility, mainly in the form of FotM, so they can actually keep moving (and therefore remain a bit less vulnerable to AoE), and still put out some damage. Essentially what I'd like to see is the Catachan shotguns working like Scout shotguns, FotM and damage drop-off with range.

[SirSid]

Catachans are a VERY strong unit They are in no way underpowered and having spoters dose not make them redundent.

Catachans are hard to use properly , this is Y i think some players think they are UP.


Used right they are a extremly high DPS Bleed resistant unit that has massive untility and combat options avalible to him.

Used wrong they will be foreced off fast and never do any good for your army.

evrey high level IG player i know uses them to great effect i have no idea whare tropid and the others are getting this "chatacans need a buff " thing.


And ill say it again for the record , thare IED dose WAY to much damage and is borderline broken OP in some matchups.

[Torpid]

Which high level IG players are those?

[Kvek]

Catachans are a VERY strong unit They are in no way underpowered and having spoters dose not make them redundent.

Catachans are hard to use properly , this is Y i think some players think they are UP.


Used right they are a extremly high DPS Bleed resistant unit that has massive untility and combat options avalible to him.

Used wrong they will be foreced off fast and never do any good for your army.

evrey high level IG player i know uses them to great effect i have no idea whare tropid and the others are getting this "chatacans need a buff " thing.


And ill say it again for the record , thare IED dose WAY to much damage and is borderline broken OP in some matchups.

high dps? Not sure from where you got that, bleed resistant... They bleed a lot, and without sarge they are a bleeding machine. they have some nice abilites, but i wouldn't call that massive utility... and as torpid asks who are these high level ig players ?

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

not many high lvl ig players anymore. though i buy catas every game myself but shit i 7 unit t1 u know so w/e

[Torpid]

Catachans don't synergise well with sentinels. But they can work very well when complemented by med-kits, holy pyre or lead by example alongside a triple guardsmen build. Most other builds though, it's generally ill-advised to include catachans unless you can abuse IEDs (for example vs an eldar), or if you are the LG since he can't counter-initiate melee like the other IG heroes can.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Catachans are a VERY strong unit They are in no way underpowered and having spoters dose not make them redundent.

Catachans are hard to use properly , this is Y i think some players think they are UP.


Used right they are a extremly high DPS Bleed resistant unit that has massive untility and combat options avalible to him.

Used wrong they will be foreced off fast and never do any good for your army.

evrey high level IG player i know uses them to great effect i have no idea whare tropid and the others are getting this "chatacans need a buff " thing.


And ill say it again for the record , thare IED dose WAY to much damage and is borderline broken OP in some matchups.

Catachans are super situational in almost any IG build. I've rarely seen them used well. And it's not that they're hard to use effectively (their micro is straight forward for the most part) - it's that it's hard for an opposing player to not counter them easily. They bleed like hell - again, read and note AoE. For great effect and lulz, they are made almost useless against squads like Noise Marines, Purgation w/ Incinerators ... heck, even 2 squads of vanilla heretics would hurt the shit out of 'em.

Do they need a buff? I'm not sure - I do think they warrant a tweak/readjustment though, as I rarely see them used let alone used effectively. Whether that is a buff, or just a general change to their role is a whole different topic.

[Sub_Zero]

They still have crazy melee dps (for a ranged unit) and their ranged damage is very good too (they can kill a tactical squad of space marines equipped with a flamer). And they are resistant to bleed because in T1 they have 2 immortal leaders and in T2 they have 3 immortal leaders. I hope you notice that even scouts, shoota boyz, heretics are kinda resistant to bleed if they have their 1 immortal leader.

heck, even 2 squads of vanilla heretics would hurt the shit out of 'em.

I really doubt it. On approach one of those squads will be forced to retreat (ranged damage from cats, shotgun blast, ol' reliable) and the other one will be defeated in melee with no problems. No melee squad in T1 gives problems to them.

[Torpid]

No way can catachans compete with flamer tacs at range.

[Lulgrim]

#ArenaOfJudgement

[Commissar Vocaloid]

They still have crazy melee dps (for a ranged unit) and their ranged damage is very good too (they can kill a tactical squad of space marines equipped with a flamer). And they are resistant to bleed because in T1 they have 2 immortal leaders and in T2 they have 3 immortal leaders. I hope you notice that even scouts, shoota boyz, heretics are kinda resistant to bleed if they have their 1 immortal leader.

heck, even 2 squads of vanilla heretics would hurt the shit out of 'em.

I really doubt it. On approach one of those squads will be forced to retreat (ranged damage from cats, shotgun blast, ol' reliable) and the other one will be defeated in melee with no problems. No melee squad in T1 gives problems to them.

Assuming the shotgun isn't down :p

[Sub_Zero]

No way can catachans compete with flamer tacs at range.

Tested that with РАЗБЕГ a while ago. Now I won't find that replay.

Assuming the shotgun isn't down :p

What do you mean? Cooldowns on abilities?