Terminators

[Torpid]

No, I mean SM has a colossal advantage against IG in t1. That never disappears throughout the MU. But that's not really my bone of contention as MUs will be MUs and you can't base balance around a broken MU, else you're just going to break more MUs.

My issue is one that's more general, I just think tac flamers overperform atm, nonetheless this isn't the thread for it so I'll shut up about it.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

seeing as to who each of those skills listed i contain a plethora of i will gladly ignore ur incompetence. flamers are a real problem im srry u can only play one race competently. but obviously u cant if u think ranged terminators need to be buffed. case and point

[Sub_Zero]

You are just a player. You are not a professor of DOW. You have no right to judge who is competent and incompetent here.

As to IG vs SM. 2x guardsmen + 1 sentinel put out so much damage even in T1. Tactical marines are not a problem for them. Assault marines are not a problem either. Your heroes, catachans, sentinel very very fast make them useless. Devastators get countered easily too now. In T2 it is just a joke not to force off tactical marines. Assault cannon dred might be a problem but you have ogryns and tons of AV along side them. Plasma devs < manticore. Libby sucks. Whirlwind can disrupt things a bit. Razorback is a standart transport, nothing special to rape IG army. In T3 if you get termies it is not a problem for IG again. They just get kasrkin with plasma guns. IG's tanks are better. IG's super unit is better. How did you come to this conclusion that SM have advantage over IG in all tiers?!

[Lag]

You just said "if IG has infinite money and every unit on the field, he can counter what you have and IG will win".
I could just go Plasma Devs > GM, Devs with Targeting > Sent, suppresion > Ogryns and Flamers > t1 IG infantry. OMG IG must be losing every game, no??? How about taking into consideration that IG loses models (yes, actually loses models!) which means not only that the army bleeds, but that it's firepower is drastically reduced during the fight, while the SM retains the highest possible output throughout the fight due to a mechanism of not losing models which is fine for most of the SM army but is "an atrocity" and a "broken mechanic" when IG have it on one of their squads.

[Kvek]

You are just a player. You are not a professor of DOW. You have no right to judge who is competent and incompetent here.

As to IG vs SM. 2x guardsmen + 1 sentinel put out so much damage even in T1. Tactical marines are not a problem for them. Assault marines are not a problem either. Your heroes, catachans, sentinel very very fast make them useless. Devastators get countered easily too now. In T2 it is just a joke not to force off tactical marines. Assault cannon dred might be a problem but you have ogryns and tons of AV along side them. Plasma devs < manticore. Libby sucks. Whirlwind can disrupt things a bit. Razorback is a standart transport, nothing special to rape IG army. In T3 if you get termies it is not a problem for IG again. They just get kasrkin with plasma guns. IG's tanks are better. IG's super unit is better. How did you come to this conclusion that SM have advantage over IG in all tiers?!

Asms/Devs/tacs aren't a problem for the ig army, but together they are, i doubt he would send them one by one...

Assault cannon can easily rape ogryns with a nice barrage and follow up, and when ogryns are gone it will rape ig's army

PLasma devs<manti so you spent 300/90 resources to counter something that ocsts 400 req and now you have something big in your face and manti won't save your ass, and if you keep it in base so it can't be harmed, it won't probably have range to fire on some maps (calderis ref for example)

libby doesn't suck, try to deal with pdevs under veil of time support as ig

[Sub_Zero]

Vs space marines you don't need to care about models that die. You got 3 plasma guns that do all the damage. I don't even upgrade my guardsmen with commissars. I just go for plasma guns and keep them until they are about to die. And it always works great for me.

And when you say about separated engagements then yes in your cases IG's units will lose, however some of them can be argued. But that is not how fights are going on. You will try to counter my units and I will try to counter your units. With every possible tool. And who will be more successful he will win. And every mentioned by you SM unit has at least one counter from IG army.

[Sub_Zero]

Asms/Devs/tacs aren't a problem for the ig army, but together they are, i doubt he would send them one by one...

And so IG army doesn't consist of only 1 unit. If he goes for this build then I go for cats and spotters. And followed fights will be dependant on player's skill.

Assault cannon can easily rape ogryns with a nice barrage and follow up, and when ogryns are gone it will rape ig's army

Yes, it is true, ogryns can be pushed back on approach. However you can anticipate it and avoid it. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

PLasma devs<manti so you spent 300/90 resources to counter something that ocsts 400 req and now you have something big in your face and manti won't save your ass, and if you keep it in base so it can't be harmed, it won't probably have range to fire on some maps (calderis ref for example)

But the manticore is a better artillery overall and its cost is justified. And it fires quite often. And yes you have to manage it well to keep it away from any harm and be able to fire at any place you want. Manticore + spotters/cats (barrage into manticore strikes) can decline any ranged build.

libby doesn't suck, try to deal with pdevs under veil of time support as ig

Of course he doesn't, I exaggerated. But he can't damage units as good as he used to do in retail with his smite. And I don't think pdevs are better than devs under veil of time. Pdevs can be shot by plasma guardsmen or tied up quickly with any melee unit (ogryns, heroes) while devs can stop any melee unit and prevent any ranged squad from firing.

[Kvek]

I know you heard it many times, but try to use a 1v1 perspective when you look at the manti.

[Dark Riku]

Little bit harder to avoid getting burnt by tac flamers when in t1 tacs are extremely hard to kill as IG, an army with no melee and only the weak piercing dps vs tacs in t1,

No, I mean SM has a colossal advantage against IG in t1. That never disappears throughout the MU.

The bias is stronk in this one. May the bias be with you.
"no melee" is just a straight up lie already -.- This thread is becoming a pissfest ~~

Terminators aren't nearly as good as they used to be because of all the new and easy to get counters in Elite. Not to mention their cheaper and better counterparts
or how stunning them with a follow up is like signing their death sentence :/

Libby only seems marginally useful in the IG matchup. Mainly because vehicle armor is fairly easy to deal with as IG. I just can see him justifying his cost at all.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

I think u guys have clearly forgotten that the only races u see winning at da top are sm chaos and tyranid. I have no bias hete i play eldar apo and cl. And i can say with clarity that my apo has yet to lose to an ig on elite. 2 devs and a flamer then throw in asm and its a romp fest of bleed special. The ig player will nvr make it out of t2 as he will bleed exponentially more ruining his eco. U are more then welcome to come play ur ig vs mu sm sub zero so i can teach u the error in your thoughts

[Sub_Zero]

This thread is about terminators. What error are you talking about? And please teach your father. I am not in need of it.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Nah with the thoughts that ur having u might be in need of our our lord jesus christ. U sound like a butthurt kid who cant micro his termies properly therefore they need a buff.then thinks when he rofl stomps low lvl sm players with his weak ig thinks theres nothing wrong with the flamer. Trolololol play tex torpid me ace of swords sm with any ig hero u so desire and id be suprised if u made it out of t1 without getting lolled by a flamer.

[Kvek]

Soul, no need to be rude. And Termies are weak even if microed properly..

[Sub_Zero]

Oh, my posts are full of despair and hatred, aren't they? How have you come to such a conclusion? It was just a suggestion. And this forum is about suggesting and discussing things, isn't it? You have to think about what you write and how you write.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

How are 100 ranged dps 4500 hp shi armor with a tele up? Just cause theyre not as stupid broken as they were in retail? They cost as much as sc and ill take termies over a sc anyday of the week

[Bahamut]

Yeah.. that's why SM went from one the strongest t3s to one of the weakest t3s in game

[Kvek]

How are 100 ranged dps 4500 hp shi armor with a tele up? Just cause theyre not as stupid broken as they were in retail? They cost as much as sc and ill take termies over a sc anyday of the week

They didn't get nerfed.
They cost 50 req+350!red more.
If you lose an engagment (which can happen easily due to something like Doom of lolantai/nuke etc) they're DEAD

[Torpid]

But their t1 got buffed hugely to compensate...

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

I dont see how u think there t3 is weak. Just because its not ape shit.broken like retail doesnt mean its bad. Preds terminators vanguards land raider all still amazing choices

[Sub_Zero]

If you lose an engagment (which can happen easily due to something like Doom of lolantai/nuke etc) they're DEAD

That is the thing I think about when I suggest to give them melee resistance. Microing them during the fight is one thing, another thing is what to do when there is no support. Of course I can threat them like a vehicle (vehicles die very quickly without support) but they are not vehicles really, they are infantry.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Terminators should nvr be pushing by themselves. They are like vehicles in that respect. Good alone but shine alongside a supporting army. Speed 4 means u cant over extend and need to keep em with the main force

[Forestradio]

What the hell am I supposed to do as GK in T3 then, if Terminators aren't a viable choice?

And yes all terminator variants have had their role reduced in elite. The introduction of powerful ranged units to other races (kasrkin, dark reapers, flash gitz, etc) has made them less powerful.

Was this justified? I think so.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Hmm gk need 1 more unit to even out there t3 and theyl be fine. Otherwise the termies themselves perform very well in there roles.

[Mastercrafted]

One thing that I would like someone to clarify for me is why assault terminators(sm) cant seem to stand for a second vs their chaos counterparts, every time I get this kind of engagement I see my termies all over the place due to constant special attacks from their much cheaper counterparts, needless to say they get absolutely raped. To my understanding they now have the same melee skill.

[Kvek]

The Chaos Terminators seem to do ability knockback (they kb termies no problum)

[appiah4]

Do chaos and loyalist terminators really have to be this aggravatingly different flavor? Just give equal hp and melee skill to both, and balance the weapon options. What's so hard?

[Kvek]

We could do the same with Raptors then and the LR phobos too.

Just no, I want them to be different -,-

[Nurland]

Do chaos and loyalist terminators really have to be this aggravatingly different flavor? Just give equal hp and melee skill to both, and balance the weapon options. What's so hard?

That would probably be very easy. Also very boring and really does not fit the general concept of the game.

[Sub_Zero]

For me very boring, no, rather annoying to see lc termies in ranks of Chaos. Copy-paste unit. But for everyone it is OK.

[Nurland]

Just to clarify I don't think Chaos Termies should be better than their loyalist counterparts but I don't generally like the idea of making any more units exactly similar. Regarding LC Terminators not sure if the Chaos ones have ability KB and the SM ones don't. If it is so I think it would be reasonable to remove it from Chaos or grant it to the SM ones too. And as I stated previously a reinf. cost increase and/or a req cost increase to LCs for Chaos would probably be justifiable also.