Spiky Armour + Angry Bitz

[Lag]

I don't wanna find correct numbers of all the armors that give you health regeneration. But here are some numbers that I remember for sure: FC - 0.25, TM - 0.25/0.3, APO - 0.1, Farseer - 0.3, CL - 0.25, KNOB - 0.3 and enough. What I want to say is that his health regen is kinda better than health regen of all of those commanders. Yes, I know that some of those commanders can get shields and other stuff to improve their survivability. I believe only RA has better health regeneration with his T2 armor.

Man... Apo hes passive and active self-heal, FC has a native "can't touch this" ability, and so do the BC and CL. TM and KNOB are ranged heroes and I'll give you the Farseer. If we are talking about hero durability you can't just discard all of these things and look solely the numbers which is what you keep doing while you theory-craft, failing to grasp the bigger picture. In order to make WB this fierce you need to buy two items (like going for Iron Halo and mana-vamp with CL or Shield and Artificer with FC) which is completely fine by me, as other heroes are obviously as funny as he is in t1. He becomes ridiculous when you add the Painboy in the equation (Ard Boyz is nasty too, but it is nasty if you put it on FC, HT, BC and CL as well).

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I'm very surprised with all this complaints against the Spiky Armour + Angry Bitz combo.

When I complained about the old n gud Painboy's heal + Angry Bitz combo in the Ork thread, which was like three times more powerful with armour independence the people only complained about the DOT damage of the painboy melee attack or the 50 power_dps damage.

Said that, why should give Angry Bitz a health regeneration bonus? The charge, the ability knockback, the speed increase and the damage increase (35%, except was change in ELITE) isn't enough?

[Lag]

Try charging the WB into an army which has a suppression team and the answer to your question will become apparent. Now compare his charge and HT charge for example.

[Sub_Zero]

Yes, I know that some of those commanders can get shields and other stuff to improve their survivability.

I failed, did I?

KNOB and TM can become melee heroes. I assumed that. APO's passive healing aura doesn't work on himself.

Ard Boyz is nasty too, but it is nasty if you put it on FC, HT, BC and CL as well

When this ability became available for those commanders?

In order to make WB this fierce you need to buy two items

And they are cheaper than armor + shield for CL or FC, for example.

[Lag]

And they scale horribly in comparison.

Yes, I know that some of those commanders can get shields and other stuff to improve their survivability.

I failed, did I?

Yes you have, feel free to re-read what I wrote.

[Nurland]

I don't think Apo aura affects the Apo himself. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

[Sub_Zero]

Great
You was writting about other things that allow heroes to be more tanky. I had pointed that out in my post earlier.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Try charging the WB into an army which has a suppression team and the answer to your question will become apparent. Now compare his charge and HT charge for example.

Yeah, of course. I can charge with my Chaos Lord under Khorne workshipp and see how fast his HP drops against a HWT which obliterates my Chaos Lord at short range. Not mention if my oponent decide to abuse a bit of pathblock

Which is the real purpose of Now I'm angry? Counter ranged squads, counter suppression team, disruption ability, escape ability? Because Now I'm angry can do all that things.

Compare WB vs HT charge is pointless. The HT charge don't increase his damage for X seconds, or create light cover craters to protect the horma/termagaunts or increase his speed for X seconds. (except during the charge time)

I don't see a reason to keep such high Health Regeneration in Now I'm Angry. Or at least not such a high one.

- High speed -> less time taking ranged damage and less possibility to evade melee combat from enemy squads.
- Create light cover craters + natural Commander armour -> less piercing_damage taken.
- Damage Increases -> possiblity of trolololo damage in T1 with Bang Bang Hammer.

Without mention of support with Aiming? Wots dat? or the Painboy heal.

[Lag]

Compare WB vs HT charge is pointless. The HT charge don't increase his damage for X seconds, or create light cover craters to protect the horma/termagaunts or increase his speed for X seconds. (except during the charge time)

Yet it does damage the stuff it charges through, it doesn't take 2 minutes to complete the charge if it get suppressed, and it cannot be knocked back or disrupted while charging unless it is a well placed stun. I'll take that over creating craters (lol).
The regen was necessary because before that the charge was mega situational and often ended in watching your WB march into death without a possibility to issue a retreat order which is just plainly stupid, especially against Orks who can hide their suppression team.

I don't think Apo aura affects the Apo himself. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Could be. Still has the heal.

[appiah4]

Remove regeneration, add "breaks suppresion for duration of the charge.". Ability fixed?

[Nurland]

According to my understanding Apo players usually want to use the heal on their units rather than on the Apo. I am sure Riku can elaborate that a bit more since his Apo knowledge is pretty extensive.

WB charge has its advantages as has HT charge. WB charge is potentially way more dangerous but HT charge is more reliable in charging headlong into enemy positions with suppression/kb.

Remove regeneration, add "breaks suppresion for duration of the charge.". Ability fixed?

Would probably make the ability even better. Especially with BB hammer or Big stomp.

[appiah4]

I don't know, the charge actually gives regeneration to deal with suppression issues; so if that is its purpose, it can be replaced with good old "breaks suppression"? You would get rid of outrageous regeneration, and allow the WB to charge setup teams without dying right away or getting suppressed mid-charge and unable to retreat.. HT's charge is imune to suppression but it doesn't break the game.. A nerf to its range, removal of regeneration and suppression imunity sounded OK to me, but I don't use the WB charge much so I may be misjudging it.

[Sub_Zero]

According to my understanding Apo players usually want to use the heal on their units rather than on the Apo.

Yes, that is right. But now heal is better on commander type units. Leveled Apo can heal himself for a bigger amount of HP that he used to do in retail.

[Nurland]

HT charge does not give 35% damage bonus and/or a speed bonus. This stuff in addition to the health regen makes WB worse as a spearhead of your army when assaulting into an entrenched position (not too shabby at that either as he can tank a fair bit of damage) but if he catches you when you are not in position or flanks... Well then he is way more dangerous than HT. WB charge has more utility in general than HT charge.

[Dark Riku]

I don't know, the charge actually gives regeneration to deal with suppression issues

I don't think the regen is there to deal with suppression "issues" in the first place
so giving the charge suppression immunity would be bad.
The warboss is not designed to be suppression immune.

HT's charge is imune to suppression but it doesn't break the game..

The "HT's charge" isn't immune to suppression so to say rather the HT himself is.

Yes, that is right. But now heal is better on commander type units. Leveled Apo can heal himself for a bigger amount of HP that he used to do in retail.

Again people pulling stuff out of their ass trying to, what they think, "debate".
The heal was always "better" on commanders even in retail. Except in retail it did double what it does now due to it having a HoT too not to mention heal way more if you have a regen armor equipped.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

This combo definitely needs to be adressed. i had a retreating wb run through two squads of tacts and scouts starting at 28 hp. each unit swung of 2 to 3 attacks wb nvr went below 22 hp. like lol? is this serious?

[SirSid]

I don't know, the charge actually gives regeneration to deal with suppression issues; so if that is its purpose, it can be replaced with good old "breaks suppression"?

u will still die if u charge at a suppression team the extra regen dose not alow u to charge devs down ATM.

[Sub_Zero]

•Apothecary "Heal" scaling increased from 110/130/150/170/190 to 110/140/170/200/230 hp (at levels 1-2/3-4/5-6/7-8/9-10)

That is what I meant. Maybe I wasn't quite clear but I meant that. I forgot to say about additional 50 hp on any commander type unit. Leveled Apo can heal himself for a bigger amount of HP that he used to do in retail. This statement does stand.

Except in retail it did double what it does now due to it having a HoT too not to mention heal way more if you have a regen armor equipped.

Heal over time? Any proofs of it? In current retail state there is no heal over time for standart Apo's healing. And using your terminology - Again people pulling stuff out of their ass trying to, what they think, "debate".

[appiah4]

Wrong thread?

[Asmon]

•Apothecary "Heal" scaling increased from 110/130/150/170/190 to 110/140/170/200/230 hp (at levels 1-2/3-4/5-6/7-8/9-10)

That is what I meant. Maybe I wasn't quite clear but I meant that. I forgot to say about additional 50 hp on any commander type unit. Leveled Apo can heal himself for a bigger amount of HP that he used to do in retail. This statement does stand.

Except in retail it did double what it does now due to it having a HoT too not to mention heal way more if you have a regen armor equipped.

Heal over time? Any proofs of it? In current retail state there is no heal over time for standart Apo's healing. And using your terminology - Again people pulling stuff out of their ass trying to, what they think, "debate".

As much as I hate backing up Riku he's right about the heal over time. That thing was removed after the Sanguine Chainsword got buffed with a +0.3 health regeneration, which led to an incredible regen when the Apo used his heal on himself (something way better than Spiky Armor + AB, yes indeed). That decision was one of the stupidest from the devs btw.

[Lulgrim]

Heal over time? Any proofs of it?

Wtf man, half of the effect was heal over time for years, it was only removed in one of the last retail patches before support was cut.

[Sub_Zero]

But for me it seemed that he had been addressing to the latest patch of retail mode.

When someone says "IN RETAIL" I assume that he is addressing to the latest patch of retail mode. Gotta clarify details you know. He just like that insulted me because my post wasn't clear enough for understanding/was written incorrectly. He wasn't clear enough too, you know?

I think it will be a right decision to delete all these off-topic messages. We went too far really. It will prevent further misunderstandings.

[Torpid]

No wonder posts are so unproductive on this forum. You guys have serious reading comprehension issues. OFC when somebody is talking about, right now, in 2014, what it is like in retail they are referring to 3.19...

[Ace of Swords]

As much as I hate backing up Riku he's right about the heal over time. That thing was removed after the Sanguine Chainsword got buffed with a +0.3 health regeneration, which led to an incredible regen when the Apo used his heal on himself (something way better than Spiky Armor + AB, yes indeed). That decision was one of the stupidest from the devs btw.

Yeah but doesn't make any sense now right? The painboy is a goddamnt T1 sub commander that has a direct heal + HoT (heal over time), why the apo that is the dedicated healing commander shouldn't get it back? All or almost all the of issues of stacking Healt regen were fixed in elite, or is it just plain bias?

[Nurland]

Ooohkayyy... Now it seems to me that you guys should take a deep breath and keep this from getting personal. Or if you want to make it personal. Go make it personal somewhere else.

Edit: Removed some of the more offensive/heated posts.

[Asmon]

As much as I hate backing up Riku he's right about the heal over time. That thing was removed after the Sanguine Chainsword got buffed with a +0.3 health regeneration, which led to an incredible regen when the Apo used his heal on himself (something way better than Spiky Armor + AB, yes indeed). That decision was one of the stupidest from the devs btw.

Yeah but doesn't make any sense now right? The painboy is a goddamnt T1 sub commander that has a direct heal + HoT (heal over time), why the apo that is the dedicated healing commander shouldn't get it back? All or almost all the of issues of stacking Healt regen were fixed in elite, or is it just plain bias?

I'd be ok with the return of HoT, at a lower degree that what is was in retail though. You sound angry and quote my message. Why?

[Ace of Swords]

Im not angry at you, but im angry all around about the state of the apo currently and how some other races are getting better things that they nor need or deserve, you just happen to have a relevant post to my point .

[Raffa]

im angry all around about the state of the apo currently and how some other races are getting better things that they nor need or deserve, you just happen to have a relevant post to my point .

To be honest I'm quite comfortable fighting SM in general, although I am pretty sure this has more to do with the quality of most SM players I tend to face rather than the race itself. Case in point: Noisy still wins what at least 2/3 of my games with him using Apo.

From a purely competitive POV, it seems Tyranids are the strongest race. This is mainly because of the bleeding/harassing power of the LA with Feeder Tendrils in T1, the strong economy boost given by endless swarm in T2, and the Doom of Ma'lantai in T3 which has the killing potential of a super unit but costs about 50 power less than it should.

Contrary to popular belief, I actually think a pretty damn fine job has been done balancing the races. All the clearly "OP bullshit" has been fixed (FoF + swift movement, sentinels with stomp by default, etc..)

With the exception of the issues listed above, I'm for minor tweaks where necessary, e.g. to Nurgle Worship, not radical overhauls like some people suggest.

Also, I'm all for trying a reduction on the Apo's base Heal strength in exchange for a HoT, with the Heal amount and HoT rate increasing every 2 levels.

[Broodwich]

Lol obvious troll is obvious

As an aside, I've played apo quite a lot just in 2 and 3 and the only thing that strikes me as over performing is the vials, with their super low energy cost, fast cool down, and cheap price, they are kinda nuts. A cool down increase or price increase should probably be considered.

Other than that about the only thing with buying is the bolter because it keeps him out of combat and has the trolling kb. He sucks in melee because he's so weak. Would be nice to be able to do something else with him instead of ranged blob, but I really haven't found anything else effective

[Nurland]

Lol obvious troll is obvious

Who are you referring to? As I have apparently missed the trolling entirely.