3.0 - Things to be adressed

[Cheekie Monkie]

And you can't really recognize doom as easily as you do it with mark target.

I wholeheartedly agree that some visuals need to be more obvious. Things like FTE and Mind Blades can be a real engagement changer yet aren't clear and glaring enough for your enemy, or worse, your allies to instantly recognise.

Highly visual examples, such as the UYC animation should be considered for greater use.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Assail is undeniably a must have now, but it was terrible the way it was setup before because it was too easily countered - the channel pretty much singled her out immediately and forced you to play her more passively and behind her army, which is counter intuitive to a lot of her builds which require her to be more aggressive.

As it stands, I feel perhaps being able to make it so that it either has a lower hold time or perhaps introducing some other benefits if they decide to go back to the channel route would make it useful. Because as it stands, I feel that the old setup was way too situational.

[Torpid]

How was it situational, its range covers the entire screen nearly and you have a ranged based army -_-

She has 2 ranged weapons and her melee weapon is mainly purchased for counter-intiation purposes in either scenarios you will not be charging into the foe and so assail is extremely strong even if it ere to immobilise her, hell even on retail she could shoot while casting assail.

[Batpimp]

im confused these are things for 3.0, but has 2.2 final been implemented?

I ask because for example the Warboss Spiky armor ability "attenshun" has not been implemented.

[Sub_Zero]

I think it is never gonna happen. They gave health regeneration.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

How was it situational, its range covers the entire screen nearly and you have a ranged based army -_-

She has 2 ranged weapons and her melee weapon is mainly purchased for counter-initiation purposes in either scenarios you will not be charging into the foe and so assail is extremely strong even if it ere to immobilise her, hell even on retail she could shoot while casting assail.

It depends on how you use it? If you're using it to assail a squad from range and surrounded by the comfort of your troops, that's fine and dandy - but there are a lot of cases where she's not in close proximity of her troops and is tied up engaging a squad in melee. In situations like this, there is an undeniably huge difference in how her assail is used now, versus before - which again, as you stated, has huge range and can now be used to assist her troops without her having to be safely right next to them ... which is my point. And how can you say she's not used to charge into a troop? With the support of her troops, and with gear like Mandate and Rosarius (one of which even encourages breaking the gap by providing a huge speed increase...), it's reasonable to say that there are times where using her in melee is completely viable. Her melee may indeed become less relevant as vehicles become more predominant or stronger units appear in the endgame, but even in T2 there is still plenty of use for her in this role, if not just for the sake of preoccupying enemy ranged troop and setup teams.

Secondly - she has two melee weapons because you are neglecting her default weapon. Furthermore, her melee damage remains the same as her default weapon if she favors using a ranged weapon instead (be it inferno or crossbow), and can still be used to tie up squads regardless.

[Cheah18]

Do the majority of people still not consider banshee chasing OP? I mean, today i had my Commissar Lord retreat at about half health when i saw the banshees (I ran immediately), and focussed fire on the shees with 3 GM squads. The banshees got the channelling ability (I think its that one, warlock ability that makes the green rings appear on them?) and ran through the fire and the units themselves to kill the CL. I feel there was actually nothing I could have done to prevent it, given that the engagement before the banshees came did not involve me doing anything stupid like sending the CL alone.

Lots of people i see online have a problem with it - I don't want this to become a situation where all the 'pro' players vote to keep the banshees the same because they have godlike reflexes etc and anticipate the shees ahead of time and prepare for them, while mediocre players continue to suffer at their exploitation. I am a rather mediocre player compared to the pros, but is this supposed to be balanced according to how the best players perform or how the majority of players do?

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

well where is ur sentinel? ur catas? or anything to counter shees. not to be rude but ur whining about shees when u have 3 guardsman? if u have no counter to them ofcourse theyre gonna run rampant. if anything shees need a buff tbh they are lackluster due to their obscene reinforcement cost and bleed potential. and they drop there exarch like flies

[Cheekie Monkie]

He does have a point though. I'm sure this point has already been discussed, but what's the benchmark for balance again?

If the game can be considered balanced at the top top tier level, would this be sufficient? Most games these days have to cater to the casuals and the 99% of the general population who don't have reflexes of steel, legendary foresight or godlike micro to remain commercially viable - even hardcore games.

But money doesn't make this mod go round, so it can afford to go in a different direction if it wants to. So out of curiosity, what should be position be?

[crazyman64335]

well where is ur sentinel? ur catas? or anything to counter shees. not to be rude but ur whining about shees when u have 3 guardsman? if u have no counter to them ofcourse theyre gonna run rampant. if anything shees need a buff tbh they are lackluster due to their obscene reinforcement cost and bleed potential. and they drop there exarch like flies

shees are in the perfect spot atm. they have obvious great chasing potential but are fragile. No buffs are required for them ladies, and if anyone thinks they need nerfs then they don't know what they're talking about.....

GLASS CANNON

[Vapor]

Competitive games should always be balanced for top level play. If things can be done to improve the experience for worse players then that's good too as long as it doesn't fuck up high level balance.

[Ace of Swords]

Competitive games should always be balanced for top level play.

This.

If any game wants to be seen as competitive there is no other way.

Bads have their own leagues where they can stay while the rest climbs up, that's enough.

[Cheah18]

well where is ur sentinel? ur catas? or anything to counter shees. not to be rude but ur whining about shees when u have 3 guardsman? if u have no counter to them ofcourse theyre gonna run rampant.

you say not to be rude but saying one is 'whining' when simply voicing opinions is really a good way to insult someone. The situation was the first tier one engagement and involved my 3 GM and the CL engaging Guardians and Warlock for a few seconds. In come the banshees and I think, 'oh I don't have an ACTUAL counter yet so I better get out'. Was thinking 'My 3 GM should have enough dps to force off the banshees atm as they are simply charging and not being manoeuvred...'

They run across the screen and kill the retreating commissar. Glass cannon should not be so resilient

Ofcourse, sent and catas (which i was building) are a natural counter to shees, but that should not and does not mean that the glass cannon melee unit can run across the screen through the fire of 3 ranged units, and were it not for the channelling ability (which has been brought up as an issue with shees recently). Glass cannon should require skilful timing and execution, not click at hero and watch them chase and kill without losing health never mind a model.

I was genuinely asking about the balancing benchmark and I do agree that it should be orientated around top level play. That being said, it still makes banshees a lot easier to use than they should be IMO, making defending against them the difficult part when that should be implementing them effectively for large gain. I should clarify what I said before and explain that I meant pro players may have less trouble defending against them because they are great players, but using the banshees is still kind of easy when it should be hard. I did not mean to suggest that balancing be based around abilities beneath those of pros

[Lesten]

The situation was the first tier one engagement and involved my 3 GM and the CL engaging Guardians and Warlock for a few seconds. In come the banshees and I think, 'oh I don't have an ACTUAL counter yet so I better get out'. Was thinking 'My 3 GM should have enough dps to force off the banshees atm as they are simply charging and not being manoeuvred...'

I'd like to see that replay.
Anyway, in that "first engagement" the Eldar player must have spent 20 power on banshee aspect and another 20-30 power on channeling runes (can't remember the cost). So unless you're power starved you should at least have a sentinel with ground pound or catachans up by that time (or a HWT for that matter).

Glass cannon should require skilful timing and execution, not click at hero and watch them chase and kill without losing health never mind a model.

Banshees are actually damn hard to use effectively, FAR from point and click. Sometimes they're awesome, sometimes they suck. They can bleed you like hell without even getting in to combat.

I should mention that I rarely use banshees vs IG because they have so many good counters. Then again I usually don't play the warlock.

[Dark Riku]

Do the majority of people still not consider banshee chasing OP?

The banshees got the channelling ability

The global FoF on shees is just bullshit imo. Chasing over the entire map wiping things with a shit ton of HP left. Then channeling runes making shees tank more than you can imagine, becoming tanks with high dps ~~

if anything shees need a buff tbh they are lackluster due to their obscene reinforcement cost and bleed potential. and they drop there exarch like flies

A buff? °_O

[Phoenix]

The situation was the first tier one engagement and involved my 3 GM and the CL engaging Guardians and Warlock for a few seconds. In come the banshees and I think, 'oh I don't have an ACTUAL counter yet so I better get out'. Was thinking 'My 3 GM should have enough dps to force off the banshees atm as they are simply charging and not being manoeuvred...'

I'd like to see that replay.
Anyway, in that "first engagement" the Eldar player must have spent 20 power on banshee aspect and another 20-30 power on channeling runes (can't remember the cost). So unless you're power starved you should at least have a sentinel with ground pound or catachans up by that time (or a HWT for that matter).

+1

Channeling runes are 20 power btw. Since it was the first engagement he shouldnt have enough red for swift movement so he was only relying on FoF which should give you enough Time to retreat.

[appiah4]

The situation was the first tier one engagement and involved my 3 GM and the CL engaging Guardians and Warlock for a few seconds. In come the banshees and I think, 'oh I don't have an ACTUAL counter yet so I better get out'. Was thinking 'My 3 GM should have enough dps to force off the banshees atm as they are simply charging and not being manoeuvred...'

I'd like to see that replay.
Anyway, in that "first engagement" the Eldar player must have spent 20 power on banshee aspect and another 20-30 power on channeling runes (can't remember the cost). So unless you're power starved you should at least have a sentinel with ground pound or catachans up by that time (or a HWT for that matter).

+1

Channeling runes are 20 power btw. Since it was the first engagement he shouldnt have enough red for swift movement so he was only relying on FoF which should give you enough Time to retreat.

Killing GM with melee units = very quick way to get lots of red. Not saying he must've had enough, I don't know the red cost, but I tend to accumulte red VERY FAST vs IG in T1 with most armies.

[Sub_Zero]

What I think about banshees.

You either invest in upgrades/units to decline their effectivness or you suffer from them while they chase you right to your base. I prefer to do the 1st variant and I have never had any problems with banshees because I always consider them as a dangerous unit but with some rare exceptions of course where I just failed.

[Lulgrim]

The situation was the first tier one engagement and involved my 3 GM and the CL engaging Guardians and Warlock for a few seconds. In come the banshees and I think, 'oh I don't have an ACTUAL counter yet so I better get out'. Was thinking 'My 3 GM should have enough dps to force off the banshees atm as they are simply charging and not being manoeuvred...'

They run across the screen and kill the retreating commissar. Glass cannon should not be so resilient

Then that sounds like Channeling Runes overperforming as 3 GM squads should pretty much gib a Shee squad on approach. And how was there the Aspect and Channeling Runes in the first engagement anyway? Sounds a bit early for so much power.

[Asmon]

Channeling runes are a bit too good for Banshees, they're fine for the other squads, as Tex's already pointed it out. I'd like to see if it is possible to reduce its effectiveness on one unit only.

Anyway, if Eldar have shees you have to get suppression or knockback. That will counter them through the whole game.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Venom Cannon Carnifex


These two MUST be looked into definitely

Weirdboy
I think this guy overperforms big time. Vomit is still 8 seconds (at least that's what i can read in the module files). Such a killy and stompy race with such a long disable smells OP to me.

UYC
35% melee damage and 60 melee skill for 25 seconds for just 75 red. A bit too good i would say, just increasing its red cost should do, since the ability is and should be strong.. just not that strong

[Dark Riku]

Anyway, if Eldar have shees you have to get suppression or knockback. That will counter them through the whole game.

Rangers...

[M4573R_CH13f]

thanks caeltos for getting in my terminator fc-topic on your list.
i'm quite fine with that changes, though i think spotters smoke shell is the one to really look at, not the flame-one. i also tend to agree to make nobs' hammers cheaper instead of greatly buffing frenzy.

carnifex venom-cannon, agree with the moaning on that one.

still think bcs sword should be 50 dps like its friends on fc and lc to not be completely overshadowed by his t2 weaponry, since it is awesome.

edit: just comming into my mind: of course, there is the problem with the setup-lascannons, where after the dps buff for havocs, making them aroung as good as the ig hwt, the devastators seem to underperform... i dont think all the issues discussed, support possibilities etc quite justify the difference between (damn, what was it?) ~33 and 40 dps or so.

[Cheah18]

On the subject of banshees again (sorry):

I'm finding it hard to explain, but I kind of see the chase potential as something separate to their performance as a unit in engagements. In fights, they are squishy and risky as we all agree (except with the Channelling Runes which made them just too resilient imo but I digress), and are probably well balanced in this regard. They're chase however is cheap as you can kill lots of expensive models e.g. SM ones purely after encountering some tacs by chance if the sm player is unfortunate enough to do so, or after engagements when only a few units are left perhaps. This is a bigger problem in team games where an SM player might win an engagement marginally, only to have their unit wiped by the opponents ally banshees flying in from just off screen at the end.

[SirSid]

On the subject of banshees again (sorry):

I'm finding it hard to explain, but I kind of see the chase potential as something separate to their performance as a unit in engagements. In fights, they are squishy and risky as we all agree (except with the Channelling Runes which made them just too resilient imo but I digress), and are probably well balanced in this regard. They're chase however is cheap as you can kill lots of expensive models e.g. SM ones purely after encountering some tacs by chance if the sm player is unfortunate enough to do so, or after engagements when only a few units are left perhaps. This is a bigger problem in team games where an SM player might win an engagement marginally, only to have their unit wiped by the opponents ally banshees flying in from just off screen at the end.

U need to adjust more to this potential chace from banshees, your not the only person who strugs vs them if left unchecked they can be very dangrous. However SM since u used that eg. have many good ways of dealing with them and offten the counters u get to prevent being over run by banshees also help u vs the rest of the eladr army.

We all know that the warlocks global makes shees extremly dangrous , We all deal with it in 1 way or another . Sometimes they get away on us and any 1 can losse a squade. Nothing new just learn to play around the mechainc.

P.S. Just wait till u have a player abuse gates to get sheens in retreat path evrey engagment u will be pissed

[Cheah18]

U need to adjust more to this potential chace from banshees, your not the only person who strugs vs them if left unchecked they can be very dangrous.

Oh dw personally I don't have tooooooo much trouble with them (IG being my main helps). Haven't been on the receiving end of too much banshee trouble myself, I've just seen what they can do and am concerned they might be too abusable.

There was a big topic on this before and it got closed because people were getting a bit... passionate. So I'm not sure it's still not an issue, or it might have just been these people who posted were those beneath the top level who have a lot of trouble with them.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Anyway, if Eldar have shees you have to get suppression or knockback. That will counter them through the whole game.

Rangers...

Hmm tis risky to go Devs vs derpdar, However. Investment into fully upgraded Shotgunner scouts/ASM + tacs w Hero can rape anY Derpdar unit ,no complains there =0

[Sub_Zero]

When you will be working on the lightning claws of the force commander don't forget to make them do ability knockback. At the moment they don't knock back units like terminators or heroes like CL. Just standart tracking weapon knockback. That is the thing I know for sure. Not sure but it seems for me that sm lc termies have the same problem.

[Companyofheroes]

Is there any consideration for GK Rhino to reinforce with an upgrade in tier 2 or 3?

Nice, I thought I was the only one.

I think this will be great for GK mobility. Compared to razorback (FC my main), the rhino is available in T1 and has T2 AV but the razorback does a better job with army field presence and hence, mobility. SM also have double capping speed and scouts can infiltrate, a capping advantage over GK ST if opponent doesn't have detection. The GK do have "we are the hammer" and T3 crusader as some relief for their mobility but overall I think SM still have an edge.

At least attach reinforcement to the heavy bolter upgrade but NOT the AV upgrade. Idk how it should be priced though.

[Dark Riku]

Attach Reinforce ability to armor upgrade.
No reinforce ability possible with lascannon upgrade.