Supression teams (Devastators)

[Torpid]

Ok well I apologise for suggesting you were doing something you were not.

I'm just a little confused by the post. I mean you seem to take a lot of time thinking about your posts and then more time articulating them, for you to express such radical humility by then saying something like "Holy cow (colloquial term)... it's the man himself (as if you are venerating him)", it just seems peculiar. If you have a view of yourself as a humble character who isn't the best player about, to the point where you have to near-venerate the 'pros' then why do you even bother to form posts like you do? I would like to reiterate, this isn't an attempt to personally provoke you, rather it is merely me being confused by the way you act...

I would private message you this sort of stuff normally, alas if I did that I would look like a dick.

[Magus Magi]

I feel a little bad now. My last post may have been on the overly aggressive side. I sometimes catch myself becoming defensive. I'm sorry for that, I owe you an apology.

The fact is, I do have a good deal of respect for the talent possessed by pro players in ELITE. When I watch Toil's replays, or Riku's, or any number of others, I'm frequently struck by their ability to pull off maneuvers that would be very difficult for me.

I don't think my inability to perform at a pro level means I have nothing to contribute though. That's why I continue to post. I take a good deal of time to try and formulate my thoughts on here, and every once in a while I hope I stumble upon a good one.

As for my "holy cow" post. I just thought it was funny that after all the ranting and raving that I was doing about the nitty gritty aspects of his game, Toil showed up in the forum thread. I knew that it was bound to happen eventually, but I was still a little embarrassed to be THAT guy, who is so often an irritation to players like him.

Anyway, I'm sorry for my aggressive response. It's just that I don't want to be misinterpreted, and I became overly defensive as a result.

[Torpid]

Haha, I guess that's understandable really. I think I'm struggling to empathise with you because I only really integrated myself into the high-level DOW community, the elite mod and the youtube casts AFTER already playing 1500hours of dow. I want to end this sub-topic here if possible, it's awkward to discuss. Lol.

[Sub_Zero]

Behold! The worst player of all the times manages to take out a chaos predator with 2x devastators equipped with vengeance rounds.

Search for it from 20 to 28 minutes.

[Dark Riku]

Behold! The worst player of all the times manages to take out a chaos predator with 2x devastators equipped with vengeance rounds.

Search for it from 20 to 28 minutes.

The Chaos player parked his predator point blank in front of the devastators and FTE was used on that front devastator squad too. Don't bring stupid examples like this please. You deserve to lose your predator if you park it in front like that without any support whatsoever.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i think his point is that they do work as av

[ThongSong]

vengeance rounds are great for opening a can of 'SUPRISE MOFO' when a warboss or hive tyrant tries to charge them. It can almost 1 burst a hive tyrant in t1 engagements

[appiah4]

i think his point is that they do work as av

So too does meleeing it with khorne marines if your opponent is retarded. Are they also av now?

[Orkfaeller]

i think his point is that they do work as av

Are they also av now?

Well, they DO have a melta pistol...^^

[Sub_Zero]

Stupid example? That was the example of their usefulness. That tank was trying to hunt down my razorback. My devs punished him for that. Of course I buffed one of them to make sure that they will take that tank out. Some days before I was managing to stop movement of a falcon with my VR devs during entire game. But that player didn't want to sacrifice his falcon only just to destroy my razorback.

What examples you want to stop whinning about that VR do no job vs vehicles I just don't know.

What do you except from a T1 upgrade that costs 75 req? However I still want to see transition from VR to lascannons.

By the way, in that game I also managed to scare his dread to death with 2 squads of devastators. People underestimate the power of VR. And that is good that people do it.

[Nurland]

Kcsm are sort of soft AV in my book... Not a hard counter by any means but they are decent at chasing down transports/other weakened vehicles.

[Torpid]

Yup, I agree, double KCSM hard counters a chimera. KCSM are definitely soft AV.

[Dark Riku]

What examples you want to stop whinning about that VR do no job vs vehicles I just don't know.

No false accusations please unless you can show me where I whine about VR?
And yes that was a very stupid example for the reasons mentioned before already.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Except for pathing issues, a Chimera will almost never die in 2 X KCSM hands. if he can't handle the damage taken, he can simply escape from the 2 x KCSM with his 8 speed.

Not mention the loses that KCSM could suffer under the fire of the multilaser and/or the chimera laser turrets if a unit is inside him.

[Sub_Zero]

Haha, that is why English is a very stupid language.

What examples you want to stop whinning about that VR do no job vs vehicles I just don't know.

It might be read as "what examples you guys want..." or it might be read as "what examples you Riku want..."
And there I meant "what examples you guys want...". I was referring to all guys who say that VR don't do the job.

But let's bring back to my example. What was stupid there? My opponent was stupid/underestimated the power of VR. And I think that he did underestimate it. What my example was supposed to show? That VR do work. They do work. THEY DO WORK. And that replay Tex vs Toil is a very stupid example really. Since 5 devs failed to take out one bloodcrusher and not because they can't do it but because the player failed to manage to do it. 1 devastator team is capable of it if bloodcrusher hesitates.

And another important note. When you activate VR your devastator may switch targets. I see it quite often and people fail exactly because of that. Just make sure they target a squad/vehicle that needs to be targeted when you activate the ability.

Devastators cover your infantry and they cover your vehicles. If you lose a tank battle just retreat to VR devastators. Enemy tank either dies trying to pursuit your tank or your tank survives. If you cannot understand this mechanic then don't upgrade VR.

[Nurland]

VR force your opponent to be a bit careful with a vehicle even if you are still at T1. Hence I consider them a very soft AV option. Not very effective at a long range but certainly at a medium/short range.

[Torpid]

Subzero in that instance or similar instances you typically formally say "one would think that's a bad idea", rather than for example "you would think that's a bad idea".

In this specific instance though it would have been better to say "What examples would qualify as sufficient to prove that VR are soft AV I dunno..." Basically stop dissing my language for no reason

Regarding KCSM vs the chimera if the KCSM start their melee charge the chimera can't outmove them and the constant power melee hits, plasma/melta pistol shots quickly wittle it down, not to mention you can't stop and repair it with GM since the GM very quickly get butchered by the KCSM. Of course this isn't very viable in 3v3 due to the bleed but with flanks and such in 1v1 especially with tzeentch worship/malignant it's very viable and extremely strong on big maps.

[Dark Riku]

But let's bring back to my example. What was stupid there? My opponent was stupid/underestimated the power of VR.

The Chaos player parked his predator point blank in front of the devastators and FTE was used on that front devastator squad too. Don't bring stupid examples like this please. You deserve to lose your predator if you park it in front like that without any support whatsoever.

VR force your opponent to be a bit careful with a vehicle even if you are still at T1. Hence I consider them a very soft AV option. Not very effective at a long range but certainly at a medium/short range.

+1 Nurland.

[Torpid]

So now we've established it's a very soft AV form and to what end?

Does anybody want it to be stronger at AV? Is this justified considering it is a t1 upgrade and not really intended to counter vehicles? Should VR be stronger against vehicles weaker against infantry? Should VR be stronger against infantry and weaker against vehicles? Should it be buffed in one way but not nerfed in the other and therefore have increased cost to compensate?

[Magus Magi]

If everyone agrees that VR are a VERY soft counter to vehicle armor, as was just posited above. It seems to me that the las cannon should remain an available option for VR Devs.

[Dark Riku]

VR themselves are fine. Devs just need to get a small buff - advantageous trait since they are performing poorly when compared to their counterparts.
Increase their HP, for example, so that they can actually be more tanky instead of claiming they are tanky (see first post) HI is not what you want on your setup teams.
Allow them to swap between lascannon and advanced targgeters in the same way tacs can swap weapons. This way they stay versatile but still have to pay for it.

[Torpid]

VR themselves are fine. Devs just need to get a small buff - advantageous trait since they are performing poorly when compared to their counterparts.
Increase their HP, for example, so that they can actually be more tanky instead of claiming they are tanky (see first post) HI is not what you want on your setup teams.
Allow them to swap between lascannon and advanced targgeters in the same way tacs can swap weapons. This way they stay versatile but still have to pay for it.

But then we're back where we started which is: no devs don't deserve a buff because SM are not dependent on devastators in comparison to all the other races, not to mention potential veil of time synergies and no VR shouldn't be able to transition into a lascannon becuase SM already have ample transitional AV and VR do their job well enough as 75 req. At the very least allowing transitional vengeance rounds means VR would need a higher cost.

[Ace of Swords]

SM has become way more reliant on devas since asm are now unusable vs orks and nids, and they are still a very important unit vs eldar/chaos.

[Magus Magi]

But then we're back where we started which is: no devs don't deserve a buff because SM are not dependent on devastators in comparison to all the other races, not to mention potential veil of time synergies and no VR shouldn't be able to transition into a lascannon becuase SM already have ample transitional AV and VR do their job well enough as 75 req. At the very least allowing transitional vengeance rounds means VR would need a higher cost.

I don't think a faction's lack of dependence on a unit should be the determining factor in balance calculations for that unit. Nor should the existence of transitional AV, inherently preclude the addition of more transitional AV. As for veil of time, that requires purchasing and managing a librarian, which means it's balanced out by the costs associated with the librarian.

More importantly, I don't think that VR would require a price increase if the lascannon were made available to advanced targeting devs. As it stands now, I don't think advanced targeting is SO impressive that a price increase would be required to maintain balance. In fact, I think increasing the cost of advanced targeting would prevent SM players from purchasing it to begin with (regardless of the ability to switch to a lascannon later).

All this said. I like Riku's idea about increasing Dev. health because it's in line with the SM theme of having especially hardy, and versatile, units. I also like the idea of Devs being able to switch back and forth between a lascannon and advanced targeting...but I readily acknowledge that price increases would be necessary for both upgrades in the event that this was allowed.

What if purchasing advanced targeting after a lascannon, or purchasing a lascannon after advanced targeting, cost significantly more than whatever you purchased initially. In other words, lascannon devs could purchase advanced targeting for a significant increase in cost and advanced targeting devs could purchase a lascannon for a significant increase in cost, but the initial purchase of either upgrade by a vanilla dev squad would remain unchanged. Just a thought.

[Dark Riku]

But then we're back where we started which is: no devs don't deserve a buff because SM are not dependent on devastators in comparison to all the other races,

"We" aren't back anywhere. This is solely your own opinion.
Since when did any of the races became dependent on their suppression teams? °_O
Builds can work just fine for any race without them.

[Torpid]

Eldar and chaos are exceptionally havoc/shuriken dependent which explains why they also happen to be overall the best set-up teams.

And orks/nids being OP doesn't mean SM need buffs, it means nids/orks need nerfs.

[Magus Magi]

Actually, I just had a much better idea than my last one.

I can think of one way to buff SM devs without changing anything about them at all. Make the librarian a more attractive choice for SM players.

That would solve two problems with one solution. It would improve the librarian as an option for tier 2 SM play, and it would indirectly buff devs by increasing the viability of a unit with which they have synergy.

I actually had a thought on how to improve the librarian too, one that is extremely basic and easy to pull of. Although I don't think this is the forum thread for that discussion.

[appiah4]

Eldar and chaos are exceptionally havoc/shuriken dependent which explains why they also happen to be overall the best set-up teams.

And orks/nids being OP doesn't mean SM need buffs, it means nids/orks need nerfs.

That's bullshit, Eldar and Chaos are not exceptionally dependent on setup suppression teams; those builds are prevalent because their setup suppression teams are incredibly superior to all others due to insane infantry damage and instant suppression and respectively. Playing Eldar and Chaos without Shurikens and Havocs is VERY MUCH possible, but not as easy because these units are usually instant point and win for T1 engagements.

[Nurland]

For me the reason to favor Havocs in T1 is the transitional AV.

[ThongSong]

I think devastators are fine. they don't do anything spectacular but they get the job done.