Painboy still overperforming?

[Torpid]

I personally don't find the painboy slugga/hero synergy overly powerful. It's fine because the painboy has a power cost and he doesn't counter suppression, not to mention HoT sluggas/heroes are still controlling by KB/suppression/evasion. My issue with the painboy at the moment comes from two things:

1) His synergy with non-sluggas/heroes. I don't think it's balanced that he can heal stormboyz, this combination is quite cheap with storms only 35 power and just overwhelming strong. The ways of dealing with the HoT such as suppression/kb/evasion are all not applicable to storms or nobs for that matter. Also I don't like how the painboy can heal shootas, just because I think it's something orks shouldn't have, that extra field presence is unnecessary.

So I would ask if possible could it be make so the PB can only heal sluggas/heroes?

2) The explosive git sauce (painboy doomblast). This ability does way too much damage, it takes about 80% of the health of default heretics off instantly but the worst part about this ability is the fact that it does KB which makes it very difficult and very risky to fight any ork melee squad in melee with the PB nearby. The doomblast into swamp 'em on sluggas is just too strong.

Solution: Change the KB to a suppression and reduce the damage?

[Lag]

The Doomblast thingie is overperforming IMHO. The rest - not sure.

[Sub_Zero]

I personally had no troubles with him since his release. But his concept is broken. T1 tanky and killy single entity that heals your troops. All Orks' subcommanders tend to give for already OP melee units (damage output) of orks even more of an edge in any melee fight.

Orks have the best melee units in the game. Their melee units will stomp all melee oriented armies. And now there is the healer that helps them to do it even easier.

[Vapor]

The knockback on the doomblast thingy is too good I agree.

As for the heal, I think it's perfectly ok for it to be usable on shootas, I mean the painboy can't heal too many times before running out of energy and I would much rather face invincible shootas than invincible sluggas/stormboyz anyway. I can see where you're coming from on PB+stormboyz/nobz synergy, but I don't like your solution. There must be a better way that doesn't restrict the heal to a select few squads.

Maybe the heal-over-time could be changed to a channeling effect (with limited range) so that the enemy would be able to force off the painboy to stop the heal, this would also stop it from working on jumping stormboyz unless you also managed to get your PB into range.

Or maybe the painboy is OK, I don't know. Just throwin' some ideas out there

[Torpid]

Yeah my solution for the painboy/stormboy synergy is pretty terrible lol, just wanted to post this ASAP.

I think it would be good if the painboy had to stay near the squad he is healing for the HoT to work, his HoT could even be made slightly stronger if this were the case I think (that is lasts for a couple more seconds) because such a change would exacerbate the painboy's weakness to controlling methods such as KB and suppression while still retaining his benefits to counter-initiation/sustainability.

[Raffa]

The painboy/stormboy combo is very strong that's true.

Then again if you've invested that much across T1 (let's not forget the pretty mandatory shoota upgrade cost), you should have a very strong army. Then there's the costs of the upgrades for both those units in Tier 2 - that extra power investment to turn those units into combat-worthy ones in T2 is going to set you back no matter what you want.

I see this being more of a problem in teams where one Ork player gets Stormboyz and another gets the painboy and they go out of their way to synergise.

I actually don't find the explosion overly difficult to deal with, altho I've gone back to playing Chaos recently which has plenty of ways to counter-initiate against melee so that might be bias there.

'fraid I disagree with you on this one Torpid Should be around this weekend, catch me around and we can check it out some more.

[FiSH]

Torpid, I want to address your initial post a bit here.
First off, 80% off the heretic squad seems like an exaggeration. According to the Codex, it does knockback and 50 explosive damage in radius 5. This is:
1. 67% health, not 80%, on a non-AC tic squad, in the worst case scenario (that all models get hit)
2. much much smaller radius than doomblast (radius 12)
3. in any case, approaching painboy supported ork melee units is a bad idea, even with two AC tics (i know that vanilla slugga + painboy > 2 AC tics even without using unstable fuel injection a few patches ago).
nonetheless, i agree with your point on the ability's strength. here's a link where raggs (WB) uses the unstable fuel injection to a great effect against noisy (CS):

http://youtu.be/n5Pdq8cAm0M?t=13m50s

i noted a few things in this engagement:
1. the damage dealt is not obscene. i'd consider the damage to be appropriate.
2. the knockback won raggs the engagement and costed noisy a few squad wipes.
3. cooldown (raggs used the ability twice with ~20s in between) and energy cost (50, painboy has 200) on such a strong ability seems too little.

my solution is either remove knockback and increase the radius of the ability, or to fiddle with the energy cost (~75?) of the ability so it becomes difficult to use alongside a heal in a single engagement.

i took all numbers from the Codex and wikia, let me know if any of them are wrong.

[Forestradio]

the painboy greatly overperforms vs GK but that's more of an issue of GK anti-melee underperforming. Grenade launchers are good vs sluggas, but horrible vs a painboy and warboss.

Agree that his "Doomblast" ability shouldn't knock down, makes it too easy to wipe stuff.

[Vapor]

Alternatively we could make the ability "MOAR ORKY" by having it do friendly knockback as well. That would make it harder to mob enemies with it.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Orkz being the only Race able to field one Sub-comn in t1 to counter-initiate Jump squads/possibly getting him out relatively early . He's an Adequate threat working conjunction with Sluggaz/SB/Warbozz boss pole , they can handle HI races like a breeze,unless u go for 2x Suppression or Mass-range in t1 .

Orkz are generally weak in T1 ,so them getting stronger in Tier progression make senses to me. I don't really Find PB "0P" since he rightfully recieved his intended nerf patches ago ,He's just a Problematic Nuisance and can be dealt with easily in T1-T2. 50 energy to heal a Particular squad ,though i somewhat agree with Unstable fuel injection abit too "strong" ,that ability can Screw meele blobs over w Warp vomit ,his Max energy pool 200 ,Dps nerfed slightly .He's in a fine position

ITS The Weirdboy still "Overperforming" with some of his abilities

[Torpid]

Alternatively we could make the ability "MOAR ORKY" by having it do friendly knockback as well. That would make it harder to mob enemies with it.

That sounds awesome actually, really like that idea.

[FiSH]

i'm not convinced that doing the "orky" knockback is a good solution. as the video link i've shared shows, the main source of damage was the shootas pouring dakka onto the knocked back units. in fact, melee units got a very few hits in because of the chains of torment. as long as there is knockback and shootas around, the ability will be strong.

and then of course, tying up shootas while there is painboy support is not a task that should be taken lightly either...

[saltychipmunk]

sayin orks are weak in t1 is a bit off the point ,
they are actually very good in t1 , they just need to eat more power to do it.


so it more like they are bad for coasting into t2 on little power investment.

but that is only a major issue when you compare them to the imperial guard which have a laughably easy time coasting into t2 with little power investment.

[Torpid]

i'm not convinced that doing the "orky" knockback is a good solution... the ability will be strong.

Well it still probably should be strong because the PB himself isn't half as worthwhile in melee come t2 as he is in t1.