Melee AV

[sk4zi]

this is actually a chaos balance issue.

i know that many people have a different opinion about this, but i think Chaos is really lagging an adequate unit that can hurt vehicles in melee.
Chaos should be the melee race - together with orks.

on the Ork side EVERY melee squad can damage vehicles with melee with their nobs.
actually quite decent in some cases.
Chaos can´t anymore.

KCSM do quite little and need to run into a wall of fire most of the times ... against many races its not a benefit, but a disadvantage that they have heavy armor.
only the PC has a wheapon which is AV and he is so slow (especially with his armor of pestilence) that he cant even chase a dread. no to say he can fight him.
terms are ok, but they also cant deal with vehicles of the same tec level

so i feel like Chaos has just Range AV - not bad av at all, but weak melee one.

PMs are nice and durable, but expensive for the fact that they are so slow and do so little damage to infantery.
also its not just an upgrade like the SM rocket. its a 500 req investment.
Lascannons are high damage but obviously quite vulnerable and tzeentch dreads do good damage cant just deal with other strong av vehicles like leman russ
(i lost my tzeentch dread to an Executioner Cannon upgradet LR recently )

although i learned to like them again, i really really miss the heavy melee damage of bloodletters
i also really miss an AV wheapon for the chaos lord.

[Nurland]

As a Chaos main I haven't got any issues with Chaos heavy melee... They have BCs (high single target heavy melee dps for the price) and Dreads (Kdread is pretty beastly, it will rape any T2 unit that tries to melee it). BL heavy melee was nice but it was just too good.

Storm Boyz can hurt vehicles nicely due to heavy melee of the nob but Sluggas are really not that great against anything else but TG. They have high dps of melee and power melee but they are rather squishy. In my experience, KCSM fare better against vehicles than Sluggas.

Well... Not many T3 (let alone T2) vehicles can take on a Leman Russ. Tanks might do OK against it if it has the Executioner since the projectiles are not super fast so at least all of them won't hit or just keep out of the Executioner's range since iirc it is shorter than other tank guns'.

[Bahamut]

lore wise the melee race by excellence is nids... orks are a swarm of Boyz, no slugga Boyz. and chaos are really spiky rotten space Marines nothing about being more melee oriented

[Phoenix]

As a Chaos main I haven't got any issues with Chaos heavy melee... They have BCs (high single target heavy melee dps for the price) and Dreads (Kdread is pretty beastly, it will rape any T2 unit that tries to melee it). BL heavy melee was nice but it was just too good.

Storm Boyz can hurt vehicles nicely due to heavy melee of the nob but Sluggas are really not that great against anything else but TG. They have high dps of melee and power melee but they are rather squishy. In my experience, KCSM fare better against vehicles than Sluggas.

Well... Not many T3 (let alone T2) vehicles can take on a Leman Russ. Tanks might do OK against it if it has the Executioner since the projectiles are not super fast so at least all of them won't hit or just keep out of the Executioner's range since iirc it is shorter than other tank guns'.

+1

Chaos should be the melee race - together with orks.

Why? Sure Khorne likes melee i guess but with the CL you get the Khorne worship and the CL + the globals to make up for this.

KCSM do quite little and need to run into a wall of fire most of the times...

Which melee unit doesnt except for jump troops?

PMs are nice and durable, but expensive for the fact that they are so slow and do so little damage to infantery.
also its not just an upgrade like the SM rocket. its a 500 req investment.
Lascannons are high damage but obviously quite vulnerable and tzeentch dreads do good damage cant just deal with other strong av vehicles like leman russ
(i lost my tzeentch dread to an Executioner Cannon upgradet LR recently )

PM are 450 req iirc. They were 500 req in retail. Additional to that when you are comparing missile tacs and PM you have to consider the starting cost for tacs as well so it is 530/40 for the tacs and 450/40 for PM + PM have a snare.

[sk4zi]

well, i didnt say that PMs are bad

they are just not allways easy to efford.

in TT chaos has much much S 6 units... and more initiative. thats melee oriented
missile tacs have also a snare. true that the KCSM´s Problem is not uniqe.

i just saw the faction battle few daqys ago and felt like: "hey they have the same problem like me"
once strong vehicles hit the field chaos has really a big problem.
i sadly cant point out what exactly it is, but i also feel like i dont know what to do vs a leman russ spam.
but i also wouldnt know as apo, to be honest.

but this is really my own experience, not just the cast.
i feel like this since ELITE mod. and i think its because of the lost heavy melee at the BL´s

[Bahamut]

chaos had the same problem all other races have against t3 armored ig. chaos already has tons of early advantages vs ig and ways to crack ig t3.

auto cannon (dread, terminator ans havoc)
las cannons
predators
plague marines
land raider phobos (no really good vs ig tho)
GUO

what infantry nids have with heavy melee? only genestealers (I don't count warrior dps cause it sucks) and they also woukd have failed hard

then what? nobs for orks and thunder hammer terminators for fc ajd paladins for gk. that's pretty much the only melee things that could go against that ig line

[sk4zi]

so do i actually call for an IG nerf?

[Torpid]

Leman's are the best tank hands-down. Guardsmen are economically the best anti-infantry unit in the game. Kasrkin butcher anything that isn't SHI or a jump squad. The baneblade is the strongest super unit. Rocket Run is the best anti-infantry nuke. IG T3 is probably the best in the game.

Why is this fine though? Becuase the IG T1 is horrible since none of the IG units are strong alone meaning they have to always blob not to mention bar sentinels they're a slow race so their T1 relies heavily on bleeding to be successful as map control isn't something they can get vs good defensive play. Then the IG T2 is really strong overall, but is it efficient? NO! It's the most expensive T2 in the game! So you often as IG get stuck in that T2 unable to that 'OP' T3 that IG have. Unless the economy of IG in both t1 and t2 is improved (meaning cheaper cats/ogs/GM t2 upgrades and generally reduced upkeep) there's no way a nerf to the IG T3 would be justified. IG would turn into chaos in retail - nobody would ever go T3.

[Nurland]

Losing the BL heavy melee was a nerf to Chaos AV but it was well deserved. I mean Retail Letters are just silly. Especially with Chaos Lord globals.

2 Lemans is very hard to counter. You need a fuckton of AV and you need to really commit into the push trying to steal the rep bunker and focus one LR with your AV while the rest of your army prevents the IG army from supporting it. Easier said than done though.

Preds against IG T3? Unless he is just spamming Kasrkin Preds are not too good as BB and LRs both own them "pretty hard".

[greenelite]

Perhaps the KCSM AC could be equipped with a chainfist? He already has some av from his pistol, so it would simply expand upon an existing talent.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Is anyone suggesting Chaos Terminators with Daemon Mauls/giant Chainaxes with Heavy_Melee and Khorne Shields? Because I'm very interested

Or the Possesed Marines I suggest long time ago

Against IG, and except if the IG player is spamming fucktons of Karkrins or have hundreds of Plasma Guardsmen (which against a MoN Chaos Predator could be awesome <3), IMHO the way to go is GUO + Havocs, or maybe Meltagun Raptors.

The Land Raider Phobos is slow as fuck, and have the same AV dps as a MoT Chaos Predator, so IMHO is preferable to go to the second one for his speed to avoid possible manticores or ranged AV squads.

[Dark Riku]

this is actually a chaos balance issue.

on the Ork side EVERY melee squad can damage vehicles with melee with their nobs. actually quite decent in some cases. Chaos can´t anymore.

You're beginning your standpoint with things that simply aren't true. :/
Something very worrying.

once strong vehicles hit the field chaos has really a big problem.

No they really don't.

To me this feels more like a whine thread than a balance concern one :/


I play tabletop too and in no way is that a good guidance for balance.
Besides Chaos on Tabletop is horrendously OP with 4 HellChickens in 1 FoC -.-
Well TT in general is a big mess :p

[Nuclear Arbitor]

kcsm are fine against any transport. they'll kill it if they get in charge range and it's unsupported. although i think the trukk is .5 faster than them... they're not as good against walkers as banshees but they can still do some damage to them if things are setup right. tanks i don't know about.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Chaos BL retaining their AV effectiveness would Rofl surround & rape a Dreadnought/Transport vehicles alike, They look so Ridiculous from retail standards . No Chaos would ever really go T3 , just Spam PM with their Enormous hp Pool to tank attrition & Artillery,just prowl through any vehicles u throw at em. Lmao

Khorne worship is relatively the smoothest/efficient way for Chaos AV squadrons to really Perform their task .Raptors w Melta-gun/PM to work in Conjunction with one another ,Bloodlust + melta-bomb + PM Snare can severely cripple a Walker/vehicle via rear armor hits, possibly hunting it down .

Raptors jump to Manitcores taking em out Instantaneously unexpectedly under Malignant blindness,such useful global like flare that recent Chaos vs IG FW, choose the wrong unit composition entirely . Just poor decision, relying on Suppression-AV to take out Tanks in T3 , dismissing a Valuable Mobile AV squad not even CT w auto-cannon can put a dent into Fully-upgraded LR.

They literally had no Raptors to counter Artillery and indecisively went for LR Phobos to hunt down LR?? 3 GUO will supposedly done a better job of swooping across IG defenses considering 2 CL present . Maybe chaos just needs a Warpsmith/Slannesh sub-commander for the Slight-Meele AV advantage , Lulululul

[Forestradio]

KCSM do their job just fine as SOFT AV. They also are pretty good at chasing stuff.

Let's also not forget that recently autocannons (both havoc and HWT) got pretty heavily buffed. So use them more and see IG weep tears of frustration when your autocannon blows up his chimera and mulches the guardsmen inside.

And Orks can't damage every vehicle in melee with their squads, the slugga boy only does power melee to my knowledge.

[Orkfaeller]

I allways was hoping Chaos Terminators could get a chain fist upgrade in ELITE.

Like a Powerfist but with addtional damage against Vehicles and maybe super heavy Infantry.

Allways wished it would work kinda like this.
vanilla CTermis - Powerwapon + Twinlinked Bolter
Mark of Khorne - Chain fists ( + Twinlinked Bolter )
Mark of Tzeentch - Powerwapon + Kombi Bolter

[saltychipmunk]

ehh i dont think chaos really needs melee av , if they did then we would have missed the melee heavy blood letters alot more than we do now.

chaos has two av snare units already , so it would be extremely easy for melee heavy units to face roll tanks with that kind of support built in.