Lord General's Carapace Armor

[Sub_Zero]

Let me introduce the thing.

You can purchase this armor in T1 for 175 / 35. This is the most expensive T1 wargear in the game and this is the most expensive armor for the Lord General.

This armor gives you the ability "Stand Firm" that allows all your troops in radius 30 to break and ignore any supression for 15 seconds. The Lord General gets no effects from this ability. In retail mode this ability used to give your troops immunity to weapon knockback.

Now I will explain what I think is terribly wrong with it.
1) Its cost. The cost is incredibly high. For what this ability does it definetely should not cost so much resources. 100 / 20 will be an adequate cost if we don't buff the armor.
2) It does not affect the commander. I think this ability should affect the commander himself. I don't even feel that I need to explain why it should.
3) Cooldown. The ability lasts only for 15 seconds. And the cooldown is 60 seconds. It should be twice as lower since the effect that ability gives you is not great and you have to use it often.
4) Usefulness. Other LG's armors are great and they are way better than this armor. Of course the Carapace Armor has its uses and can be great in some situations but the cost you have to pay for it discourages you to buy it.

Conclusions:
-Leave this wargear as it is in terms of performance but adjust its cost. I propose 100 / 20.
-Rework this wargear somehow (might be discussed here) and adjust its cost anyway. 100 / 30 or 100 / 25

[Caeltos]

This armor gives you the ability "Stand Firm" that allows all your troops in radius 30 to break and ignore any supression for 15 seconds. The Lord General gets no effects from this ability. In retail mode this ability used to give your troops immunity to weapon knockback.

I don't get it. It's been unchanged in the mod.

[Sub_Zero]

Maybe accidentally? I can say for sure that it doesn't give immunity to weapon knockback.

Anyway even knockback immunity doesn't make this armor worth of 175 / 35. And now it doesn't exist anymore.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

I believe the knockback immunity was changed to the Flak Armor instead. I agree it should be cheaper but 100/20 seems a little ridiculous, it does allow you to charge into enemy weapons teams without precautions. 120/25 seems all the more balanced to me, after all the FC's Stormshield cost 125/25 which grants similar effects.

Reduce the price yes, but 100/20 is overpowered.

[Sub_Zero]

The FC's shield is pretty nuts. It does give you 50 % damage resistance (from ranged attacks) and supression immunity. All supression teams do piercing damage and almost all T1 roster of SM wear heavy armor. Tactical marines and devastators under this buff are gonna demolish everything. The LG's similar ability is just a shadow compared to FC's ability. The only downgrade of FC's ability is slow movement. And FC can use it as often as he wants to. So 100 / 20 is fair. But to be honest I will be glad to see any price reduction.

[Dark Riku]

Are you even considering Ogryn performance with this...?

[Sub_Zero]

Ehm, you know, I can get the grenade launcher for 100 / 20 and my ogryns will start to run like mad. And to deal with any supression I will use catachans/spotters. My ogryns would love to be buffed with the 3rd armor that gives ability knockback immunity (!) and good damage reduction. This armor especially considering its cost will be the last thing to go for buffing my ogryns.

This armor is very situational and doesn't give you huge bonuses. I would buy it against raptors, against shoota boyz that constantly supress my units and combine it with melee units and other stuff, against Techmarine that supresses my units and combine it with scouts' grenades and other stuff etc. Still it is not smart to rush a setup team. It will do damage to your troops. Niche upgrade, doesn't give you much of an edge. Cost should be appropriate.

[Raffa]

-Leave this wargear as it is in terms of performance but adjust its cost. I propose 100 / 20.
-Rework this wargear somehow (might be discussed here) and adjust its cost anyway. 100 / 30 or 100 / 25

I super strongly disagree.

[Sub_Zero]

Your points? Posts like yours bring nothing and what for that smile? You are acting weirdly.

[Lag]

This armor gives you the ability "Stand Firm" that allows all your troops in radius 30 to break and ignore any supression for 15 seconds. The Lord General gets no effects from this ability. In retail mode this ability used to give your troops immunity to weapon knockback.

I don't get it. It's been unchanged in the mod.

KB immunity switched to Flak for some reason. Flak is way, way too powerful because of this now IMHO and, as OP said, the Carapace Armor is very situational and undperforms as soon as you hit t2.

[Caeltos]

I still honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Carapace Armor - "Stand Firm" has never given knockback immunity. There has been no swapping around or fiddling with it.

Are you guys mixing up "Incoming!" or something, because I got no idea. Stand Firm has never, and does not give knockback immunity. Boot up retail game and even check up on the ELITE version and compare, they function identical.

[Tex]

2 Things mainly:

First, Riku is so right when he said "have you even considered ogryn performance"?

And second, I am saying, have you ever considered what is the only thing that works against a massed IG force in t1? Just in case the answer to that question evades you, ITS SUPPRESSION TEAMS!

Buffing this wargear would give a commander who already has outrageous field presence AND extends outrageous field presence an impervious power bashing blob every time he chose to move in that direction.

I have such a hard time believing you just can't see that. I know I am getting borderline offensive here, but you will have to forgive me... this mod has done soooooooo soooooo soooooo much to move closer and closer towards a very balanced state of gaming, and this single change would cause me (and probably several others) to play LG 100% of the time in tournament games.

2 sents 2 GM's carapace armor and med kits. Add w/e you want really because its not going to matter as your opponent will have 0 power income for a large portion of a 13-15 minute game.

[crazyman64335]

tex keep this in mind when responding to his future posts. he doesn't play 1v1 so he has a far different perspective than most 1v1 players.

[Sub_Zero]

Oh, great, crazyman, stop saying "PLAY 1 v 1, noob!"

Tex, for 250 / 30 I get spotters that will be useful during T2-T3 and I disable all setup teams I need to. For 175 / 35 I get stupid armor that will become useless in T2 and that gives me only 15 second to force off a setup team while I will be taking all damage from that setup team. FC has his shield for 125 / 25 that gives you supression immunity on demand as well as 50 % ranged damage reduction. Why this wargear doesn't ruin 1 v 1? Flamer tacs + this shield. And that will leave you with no power. And as I said earlier Ogryns will do better under other buff that gives them damage reduction and ability knockback immunity. To deal with supression you need anti-supression units.

Caeltos, I believe this ability used to give you weapon knockback immunity in retail. Even tooltip says about that. I gotta check it to be sure. Atm, I can't afford it.

[Dark Riku]

First: try to calm down Sub-Zero.
Second: just because you said something earlier doesn't make it true.
Third: DO NOT MAKE ARGUMENTS ON SPECULATIONS. LOOK THINGS UP BEFORE EVEN THINKING ABOUT DISCUSSING ANYTHING FOR BALANCE PURPOSES.
This applies to many others too.

Caeltos, I believe this ability used to give you weapon knockback immunity in retail. Even tooltip says about that. I gotta check it to be sure. Atm, I can't afford it.

Do stuff like this beforehand. It's not life dependent.
If you aren't sure just wait a couple of days before posting.

Thank you.

[crazyman64335]

i'm telling you to play 1v1's because that's what the game is balanced around. 3v3's and 2v2's are just extra kickers. Once you start playing those and at a high level, then your opinion will be valued, until then you might as well stop making these pointless threads.

[Sub_Zero]

Blahaha and now I am pissed. Crazyman, think whatever you want this forum aint yours. I am allowed to create topics and post messages as long as Lulgrim allows me to do so. And if you think you are so superior then why you conceded in that 2 v 2 match against me? Yeah, because your team was about to be base raped. Your luck that I don't see you in the game at all. I would put you on your "high level" place yet again...

Tested the ability in retail. It gives no knockback immunity. I was wrong because the tooltip led me to a delusion. The tooltip says that the ability gives immunity to knockback. Fix the tooltip then. However I use russian language in the game. So it might be a mistake of translators. I dunno. Any notation in the english tooltip about immunity to knockback?

[Tex]

I don't suppose it is worth mentioning that the storm shield also reduces movement speed by something along the lines of 50% while the ability is active is worth mentioning is it? Or the fact that the FC then becomes a melee only "kite me to death" hero when he buys this wargear?

The LG retains full ranged firepower and the only drawback of casting the ability is that he uses up precious manna that could be used on handing out more med packs... It is also worth noting that the LG only has to cast once and the units do not need to stay inside of his AOE, which is huge for T2 when ogryns come into play.

Its an issue of composition as well. With the buff that you are proposing, IG would have a 2x aoe stomp, healing and repairing army that is suppression immune for a total cost of 50 power. 15 seconds of 4-5 units focus firing a setup team will most definitely fuck it up bud. WTF could possibly be right and okay about that? I mean I can add catachans to this army and I'm still only at 90 power?

Please tell me now that you are seeing the big picture here. If not, I give up.

[Sub_Zero]

Thanks you Tex for remaining polite and explaining your position in details. It is appreciated.

The FC's shield is pretty nuts. It does give you 50 % damage resistance (from ranged attacks) and supression immunity. All supression teams do piercing damage and almost all T1 roster of SM wear heavy armor. Tactical marines and devastators under this buff are gonna demolish everything. The LG's similar ability is just a shadow compared to FC's ability. The only downgrade of FC's ability is slow movement. And FC can use it as often as he wants to. So 100 / 20 is fair. But to be honest I will be glad to see any price reduction.

I had mentioned before about movement reduce. I will provide you a correct number. It is 35% speed reduction which is not that bad. Also notice all my explanations why the shield is very very very good (almost broken). When I get this shield I use my FC as a support hero. I don't want him to kill stuff in melee. He provides a HUGE buff to all troops that are already very tanky. There are tons of uses for the shield. And the most important fact that the FC can use it as often as he wants to. You have to manage it correctly because the usage of the ability drains 4 energy per second. The LG can use it once and for 15 seconds. And he has to wait 60 seconds.

The LG does not retain his fire power. He gets supressed. That is one of the things I suggested to fix.

Also I have proposed several buffs. Not the only one. I don't get what buff you assume when you talk to me. And the buffs were not the most important thing in my mind when I had decided to create this topic. I want a justifiable cost. That is pretty much it. Some people agreed with me and those were IG players. I re-read what you have written. You was talking about my suggestion concerning current cost. As I said that it should be discussed. 175 / 35 is too high. 100 / 20 is too low. We can agree on something between. I also think that I gotta mention that the CS has the ability "Warp Rift" that costs 100 / 20 and allows you to decline any setup team play. Like really decline. Warp them out of their position and murder them. But that was discussed in other thread.

Another thing. Why do I need more sentinels with this thing? There is no synergy between sentinels and the ability. I want more guardsmen. 3x + the wargear. I will be able to own a setup team in 15 seconds but while I am doing so my guardsmen are taking damage from everything my opponent has. But hey I can get spotters and they will disable any setup team. And here 3x guardsmen will own this setup team while they will be taking no damage from that setup team and probably some ranged units.

And I still think that 175 / 35 is too much. About ogryns + the wargear. How do you think what will be better? Make them immune to supression and rush a setup team/flank it taking full damage or go for spotters that will SHUT DOWN any ranged source of damage and I buff my ogryns with a CHEAPER wargear that gives BETTER benefits for my ogryns.

I won't give up.

[Torpid]

150/25 is a reasonable cost. You're right though SubZero, there is no threat whatsoever of over-buffing ogryns, clearly anyone who thinks that will happen can't play IG (sorry, but it's true). You already have spotters to deal perfectly with suppression and the flak jacket makes the oggies take less damage and be immune to KB. That is so much more optimal it is unbelievable and not only is it optimal for the ogryns but for the rest of your army too AND IT'S CHEAPER!.

There's a reason nobody gets this armour and I doubt I would get it even if it was 150/25. Does this mean spotters are too good? Maybe, but that does that mean spotters deserve a nerf? No, because IG repairs were already nerfed and catachans suck.

(can't sit out on debates about IG)

[Cheah18]

I think Sub Zero is right.

Costs way too much

[crazyman64335]

AND now sub_zero acts like he's a better player because he's "baselocked" me in a 2v2.Play me in a 1V1 and baselock me, cuz the only player i've seen do that is Tex . I know these aren't my forums, but it's a common fact the game is balanced around 1v1. But back on topic even if the price was reduced nobody would get the wargear imo.

[Tex]

Yeah.. nobody... except for toilalee, lol, who (still is rape mode with IG) will have a free pass into the frustrated part of anyone's brain who he plays against!
Don't do this to me!!!!!!

[Nurland]

Why don't we all cool down a bit? K?

[Sub_Zero]

I hope there will be some changes in upcoming patch. I've been playing with this armor today again. Such a waste of resources...

[Raffa]

Yeah.. nobody... except for toilalee, lol, who (still is rape mode with IG) will have a free pass into the frustrated part of anyone's brain who he plays against!
Don't do this to me!!!!!!

For me, in 1v1 and 2v2 at least, Toilailee's LG play is by far the strongest I've ever faced (sorry Riku you know I love you really) and this wargear is a part of that as it cancels out IG T1's biggest counters. For Chaos this is particularly noticeable: it means Raptors and Havocs (your two biggest counters to 2x sent, 2x gu) lose their effectiveness. It also hurts Orks, since Aiming wotz dat is a pretty key feature of all Ork games. But it hits every race as suppression teams are your biggest counter to IG T1. I don't even see how this is a debatable point tbh.

In a nutshell, my opinion is that if a wargear can have a drastic effect on fights and significantly reduce the effectiveness of the main counters to your race, even if only at the highest level, then its cost should reflect that. The fact that some guy who doesn't even get his facts right half the time disagrees isn't changing my POV on the subject.

So yes, I agree completely with crazyman.

And I still super strongly disagree.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

As a dedicated IG player and Lord General player myself I can say I never go for this wargear simply because of it's cost and that the other two Armors are much cheaper and more reliable to have at any given time through the tiers of a game.

Sincerely consider decreasing the cost to something along 135/25 while the other Armor upgrades remain at 125/30 that seems like a fair price to me and may even oblige me to buy it more often.

Why even have a wargear no one buys because it's so expensive? You might as well just remove it from the roster or replace it with something else?

[Sub_Zero]

Here are my arguments, Rupha. Try to disprove them. If you fail to do it then confess that you were not right.

Fact number one - spotters are always a better choice if you want to deal with a suppression team.
Why are spotters better?
Spotters can disrupt/shut down (in a row) a suppression team and prevent it from firing. 1) That gives some time for your forces to focus it down without being suppressed and shot by that suppression team. 2) The Lord General himself and his retinue can fire too. 3) Spotters are more reliable because the cooldowns on their abilities last for 40 seconds.
Why is the ability worse?
The ability allows your forces to ignore suppression for 15 seconds. 1) Your forces take full damage from any suppression team. 2) The Lord General himself and his retinue cannot fire under suppressive fire. 3) The ability is less reliable because the cooldown on this ability is 60 seconds.

Fact number two - the armor is the most expensive and yet the least useful among the Lord General's armor upgrades
Why does this statement stand?
You cannot substitute the effects of other armors with any unit that would do a better job (a medi-bunker kind of substitutes one of his armors but we must remember that any bunker provides its effects only to units nearby it). Fact number one has the explanation how to substitute the effect of the armor with spotters and why they do a better job. Concluding - it is always better to go for his 2nd and 3rd armor.

Based on the facts I can state with no doubts that any change should happen.

[Kvek]

Here are my arguments, Rupha. Try to disprove them. If you fail to do it then confess that you were not right.

Fact number one - spotters are always a better choice if you want to deal with a suppression team.
Why are spotters better?
Spotters can disrupt/shut down (in a row) a suppression team and prevent it from firing. 1) That gives some time for your forces to focus it down without being suppressed and shot by that suppression team. 2) The Lord General himself and his retinue can fire too. 3) Spotters are more reliable because the cooldowns on their abilities last for 40 seconds.
Why is the ability worse?
The ability allows your forces to ignore suppression for 15 seconds. 1) Your forces take full damage from any suppression team. 2) The Lord General himself and his retinue cannot fire under suppressive fire. 3) The ability is less reliable because the cooldown on this ability is 60 seconds.

Spotters may be better, but catachans and Ogryns under this effect are way better, since you can easily disrupt the enemy using catas, while being able to charge the Enemy setup team with ogryns (with a chance to wipe it out) Just because spotters are better than it, doesn't mean it's bad since i doubt you want spotters all the time

And if you're interested, I tried it (though i lost).
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=292139

[Raffa]

There's no convincing you. All I can say is there's a reason the most skilled players disagree with you (except Torpid, but he's done playing for now). That doesn't mean you're wrong, but it should make you re-evaluate your point of view when more experienced people, who play higher level games, and (I know this sounds elitist) are capable of making wargears and combos work that other players cannot, are disagreeing with your opinion:

this single change would cause me (and probably several others) to play LG 100% of the time in tournament games.

DO NOT MAKE ARGUMENTS ON SPECULATIONS.

Once you start playing those and at a high level, then your opinion will be valued, until then you might as well stop making these pointless threads.

Please tell me now that you are seeing the big picture here. If not, I give up.