eldar

[Tex]

This is why I think you need to see how its actually done. You aren't fighting rangers with your sniper scouts. In fact, you only need 1 sniper to completely change the way this match up plays out! Instantly wiping out a single banshee model allows tacs to bully banshees and move foward with very little fear. If the ranger shoots the tacs, then your snipers will get yet another shot on the banshees unmolested.
Further, because you have pressured an eldar into getting rangers before he has a shurikan, you have a free pass for movement on the map, and in terms of apo, this means almost certainly a well timed gen bash is on the menu.

Anyway, like I said, you will truly need to see this play out the way it actually happens in an equal skill match up. It has taken me 4-5 losses against Noisy to finally be able to deal with this early SM (bleed) pressure.

[Broodwich]

Totally, picking off one shee model pretty much is the decisive factor in a tac vs shee fight. I've found myself getting them more and more vs eldar simply because it bleeds them so much in t1 and they are expensive to reinforce.

I like rangers against multiple scouts for the same reason

[Cyris]

On the eldar vs SM subtopic, I actually hate the matchup on both sides! As SM its super stressful whenever shees are on the field, and as eldar whenever you bleed you feel you are falling so far back.

[Codex]

I know for sure that myself, Ben, Soul and Farzo find SM to be one of the worst MUs for eldar and in fact I think I would be safe in assuming that Toil would agree with that too and pretty much any competent eldar, you Riku, not being one of them AFAIK.

I think that's quite presumptuous, considering I know having spoken to Toil at length that he feels SM vs Eldar is Eldar favored.

My 2 cents, as someone whose primary races are Eldar and SM, I think Eldar edge SM but need to rely on positioning and mobility as they will struggle to brute force a SM blob down. Dismantling an SM blob and isolating units gives Eldar strong play.

[Torpid]

It was presumptous, I've spoke with him properly about the MU, however I remember him always swapping to SM whenever an eldar was giving him trouble with his other races (namely chaos/orks/ig).

I would like for some Toilalala-insight in the thread itself though if possible.

[Toilailee]

It was presumptous, I've spoke with him properly about the MU, however I remember him always swapping to SM whenever an eldar was giving him trouble with his other races (namely chaos/orks/ig).

I would like for some Toilalala-insight in the thread itself though if possible.

Ugh I rly wanted no part in this. wtf

Torpid 93.1419526535% of my games I pick my races on a whim or to try my weird bos out, I haven't counterpicked in more than few games since 2011.

I remember playing few 1v1s as sm vs your eldar and winning handily while you were telling me eldar/shees are bad/unfavored vs sm, and I was disagreeing with you the whole time (might've given up after a while and just responding with "lol" to everything).


So as for the actual issue, my personal opinion is that eldar vs sm is eldar favored and one of the most unbalanced match ups in the game. This doesn't necesserily mean that it's "that" bad or unwinnable, just that caeltos has done something right and most match ups are more or less fine.

Shees are a fucking nightmare for sm and imo the most broken unit in the game due to their insane retreat wiping potential, one of the best specials in game + 70ms, fof not only due to the speed but the dmg reduction aswell which makes them difficult to bleed in t1 and nearly impossible to bleed in t2 with exarch, and the shout makes them win nearly every melee engagement since it prevents units from attaking them in melee if they are more than 1 step away (they take forever to take that 1 step when supressed and meanwhile shees eat them).

Vs competent eldar players (tex, codex..) I have really hard time as sm, and I find eldar to be conciderably easier mu as orks/chaos.

ps. I saw some comments about eldar bleed? Eldar can only bleed in t1, after they get their exarchs they become next to impossible to bleed, and since no other eldar unit than gus or shees would bleed much in the first place anyway. There is a reason why eldar players can easily get to t3 in nearly every game and why avatar is by far the most commonly seen super unit.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

im srry toil i have to disagree with u handily. techmarine is an impossible mu for fs or wl and possible for wse but still not rlly since youll be dropping models every shot and high powered shot is a free banshee model. asm with a heal beat shees plat and guardians at the same damn time add in a shotgun scout running up for blast and haha ull be lucky if shees get away with 2 models.

[Dark Riku]

And which SM players are these then? I know of none, they all seem to find orks/nids harder, at least at a high level.g.

I know for sure that myself, Ben, Soul and Farzo find SM to be one of the worst MUs for eldar and in fact I think I would be safe in assuming that Toil would agree with that too and pretty much any competent eldar, you Riku, not being one of them AFAIK.

I do not wish to call any names and drag them into this mess you have created.
If they want to participate in the discussion they will. I do not believe any word that comes from you, especially not all these lies about other people's opinions.
You do seem to have some trouble with reality and facts...

[Torpid]

@Toil Thanks.

I dunno, I'm thinking we are all in need of seeing some proper eldar play in the tournies.

[Codex]

here to give u an idea that eldar have no hero over 50% this means nothing?



rank hero % count
1 Lictor Alpha 75.79 72 of 95
2 Chaos Lord 59 59 of 100
3 Warboss 55.7 44 of 79
4 Ravener Alpha 55.56 10 of 18
5 Hive Tyrant 54.84 17 of 31
6 Chaos Sorcerer 52 26 of 50
7 Warlock 49.09 27 of 55
8 Techmarine 48.57 17 of 35
9 Warp Spider Exarch 47.22 17 of 36
10 Apothecary 46.51 40 of 86
11 Mekboy 44.12 15 of 34
12 Farseer 42.11 16 of 38
13 Lord General 41.67 5 of 12
14 Kommando Nob 40 14 of 35
15 Commissar Lord 39.39 13 of 33
16 Force Commander 35.71 25 of 70
17 Inquisitor 33.33 5 of 15
18 Plague Champion 31.11 14 of 45
19 Brother-Captain 22.22 2 of 9

Didn't see when you added these stats, but...

a) the sample size is still too small to draw solid conclusions.
b) Even if the sample size weren't that small, these stats show that only 6 out of the 19 heroes have a win rate of above 50%. In fact, only 3 races have commanders with above 50% win rate, and hence 3 races (4 including GK) have no heroes above 50% win rate. Therefore the observation that no Eldar commander has a win rate above 50% DOES mean nothing.

If anything, these stats would suggest that IG is at the bottom of the pile, and Eldar are comfortably mid-range.
c) win rates do not account for hero popularity/ race popularity, skill distribution amongst those players... Variance due to these would be lessened in larger sample sizes due to the law of averages, but as I mentioned earlier, the sample sizes are small, and the population of the Elite community is also small.

[Bahamut]

was thinking riku's eldar vs soul drinker's SM would be a cool match to watch

[Lesten]

I want to chime in here, but since I just play Eldar and I'm not the best one at it, I assume my opinion on balance issues is worth diddly-squat. Then again, everyone else seem to be pretty biased one way or the other (I'll give credit to a few (Torpid, Tex, ...) who seem fairly objective in most threads).

As for SM vs Eldar. I for one think SM is neither the easiest nor the toughest match-up for Eldar (really depends on the player). But even as a really crappy SM player I tend to bleed less with SM than with Eldar, mostly because it's much easier to avoid losing models. If the Eldar player is as good with Eldar as the SM player is with SM, the engagements might be even, but even if Eldar come out on top he'll probably bleed more (especially when facing an apothecary with ASM, techmarine with high-powered shot or force commander in t2/t3).

So I'd say Eldar bleed is on the high end, at least compared to SM and Tyranids (in my humble experience), but enough to warrant a change? ...
A very small one maybe.
Maybe.