Lord General's Carapace Armor

[Torpid]

Argumentem Ad Hominem.

[Dark Riku]

Here are my arguments, Rupha. Try to disprove them. If you fail to do it then confess that you were not right.

I'll give it a whirl too here if you don't mind.

Fact number one - spotters
are always a better choice if you want to deal with a suppression team.

This is probably true. I don't see how this helps your overall case in any way though :/
Some points I have that go with this:

• The carapace armor deals with ANY suppression.
  Being it suppression setup teams, hero abilities (TM High powered shot),
  unit abilities (Raptor jump) or anything else I'm forgetting to mention here.
• Spotters can die, bleed and cost you upkeep. I know they shouldn't bleed but on the other hand you don't have to repay for a hero wargear, ever.
  Even when re-equipping one.

Fact number two - the armor is the most expensive and yet the least useful among the Lord General's armor upgrades

FACT: it is the most expensive wargear the LG has.
YOUR OPINION: "the least useful among the Lord General's armor upgrades"

You cannot substitute the effects of other armors with any unit that would do a better job (a medi-bunker kind of substitutes one of his armors but we must remember that any bunker provides its effects only to units nearby it).

You can easily substitute the stabilizers with the med bunker. The stabilizers only work on units nearby the LG on initial use too. Not only does the bunker provides a constant healing aura for ALL allied units nearby it also provides them a reinforce point!
And the obvious garrison of course :p

Based on the facts I can state with no doubts that any change should happen.

Based on the above I can state without a doubt you should reconsider some things. Especially since "any change" can also mean nerfing the thing :p [jokes]

I don't feel very strongly either way about this wargear. I don't think a 5 power drop in price would be something unthinkable if any buffs were to be deemed necessary.

[Sub_Zero]

•The carapace armor deals with ANY suppression.
Being it suppression setup teams, hero abilities (TM High powered shot),
unit abilities (Raptor jump) or anything else I'm forgetting to mention here.

That is the thing I was talking about a page or two pages ago. This wargear will be useful in situations when your opponent combines supression (shoota boyz, TM's high-powered shot, Farseer's mind war etc) with some things. And that will be the case when I would go for this armor. But again it is not worth 175 / 35 just to negate suppression combos.

•Spotters can die, bleed and cost you upkeep. I know they shouldn't bleed but on the other hand you don't have to repay for a hero wargear, ever.
Even when re-equipping one.

Yes, it might be mentioned by me. But I assume that a player is smart enough to keep them away from harm and he understands that there is no need to reinforce models at all.

FACT: it is the most expensive wargear the LG has.
YOUR OPINION: "the least useful among the Lord General's armor upgrades"

Agree here too. But I think everyone will agree that his other armors are better and I explained why his other armors are better. And I think everyone will agree on this too. At least I saw enough people who share my thoughts.

Raffa, and don't be so fast when you judge my skill. You haven't played with me. I haven't played with you. Can I say that you are a noob? No, definetely no. Can I say that you are a good player? No, definetely no. I can't say anything about you. And if I say something about your skill knowing nothing about you then feel free to slap me in the face. That is the thing to think about. And don't forget that I didn't say that I had problems with using this armor. No need to imagine things. The only thing I keep saying is that it costs way too much.

And yet again. Think about how broken FC's shield is and how cheap it is. If there is no problem with the cost of the armor then I have to consider this shield as a very broken piece of wargear. Something that gives for already tanky ranged units 50% damage mitigation and supression immunity should not exist in a balanced mode like this... And the shield is the thing I go everytime I play with a ranged based SM army. Imagine that the armor would give such benefits for 175 / 35? Who whould whine about that?! Sounds like a huge cost for huge benefits. That is why such cost would be justifiable for the shield. How about make that happen, huh? How about to swap costs of these two wargears between each other? Sounds balanced, doesn't it? If it does not then I am really done here. If people fail to understand all my arguments then I don't need to waste my times on worthless things.

[sk4zi]

There's a reason nobody gets this armour and I doubt I would get it even if it was 150/25. Does this mean spotters are too good? Maybe, but that does that mean spotters deserve a nerf? No, because IG repairs were already nerfed and catachans suck.

i made a thread about this 3 month ago and you alle flamed me into inactivity (exept Riku)

in my opinion spotters are just too strong in terms of shutting down Ranged units and
so saying a strong Wargear is not strong enough because there is an even stronger OP unit is ridiculous.

its true thou that spotters may be as strong as this armor and so it should cost the same amount of power.

The FC shield isnt as good, as you want to tell us.
the 35% speed decrease is a huge blow and the FC becomes melee only then (Tex allready mentioned) even with no increase of his damage.
so actually the Fc becommes wayy less usefull in tying up things - especially vs IG - especially when his skill is active.
if you buy it - the FC becomes a pretty much only standing - doing nothing but providing the buff - unit . sometimes it makes sence, but mostly not.
SMs supression counter are ASM
also you mentioned a Tac with flamer under the effect of the skill.
The Tac also has the 35% speed reduction and lower Range with its flamer. even the damage reduction is often still not enough to stand in front of a Setup Team.

in LC´s case the Range and firepower is not touched at all.
you can even take the sniper rifle and be supression immune and have longer range ...

supression immunity is one of the strongest abilitys in the game and its simply true that ig sometimes can only be stopped with supression ...
hard enough with manticores, spotters and catas around, even without supression immunity on demand for your whole army.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

You forget the LG runs close to his enemies regardless of his weapons if he has any retinue members with pistols. Though I need to point out here it is only him and him alone that are still vulnerable to suppression not actually the rest of his retinue members, they are affected by the ability as well.

I need to remind people here that with LG's grenade launchers and Flak Armor supporting an ogryn squad, the ogryns can charge into a suppression team
while being suppressed if they use "'use yer 'eads" and tear everything apart and while under the "incoming" effect. You can negate suppression effects with the catachans either using "ol' reliable" to knock down a suppression team then leading a charge with "Move move move" buffed ogryns or throw a smoke screen with the catachans also granting suppression immunity as long as they stand in the smoke.

I'm not taking sides here but the fear of the LG buffing units too much with a small cost decrease in an overpriced wargear is ridiculous, he can already make his army an unstoppable menace now, so why would it matter so much that this particular wargear gets a small cost decrease?
I think we can all settle at the reasonable price of 150/30 that way it's still more expensive than the other wargears. If you can't settle at this I think it's more than just balance, I think it has become personal.

[Dark Riku]

•Spotters can die, bleed and cost you upkeep. I know they shouldn't bleed but on the other hand you don't have to repay for a hero wargear, ever.
Even when re-equipping one.

Yes, it might be mentioned by me. But I assume that a player is smart enough to keep them away from harm and he understands that there is no need to reinforce models at all.

A shock attack can still easily kill them off and they will always
tax your economy with their upkeep. Something you didn't bother talking about.

But I think everyone will agree that his other armors are better and I explained why his other armors are better. And I think everyone will agree on this too. At least I saw enough people who share my thoughts.

You assume way too much...
It should be obvious from this thread that not everyone agrees with you.

And yet again. Think about how broken FC's shield is and how cheap it is.

For the love of god! Stop making this comparison! It's a defensive wargear on a force commander! All he is good for is smacking things in the face. With that wargear he doesn't do that anymore now does he? Not making sense at all here.
+1 to sk4zi's FC part.

If people fail to understand all my arguments then I don't need to waste my times on worthless things.

Funny that I ,guessing most others here too, feel the same way about you.

[Cheah18]

I actually used it the other day vs who else but Maestro Cretella, its insane. I expected it to be just an extra useful thing to use but it completely changed the match up around.

It was a team game so the 175 was doable, but I reckon its still to much for 1v1; 150 as proposed above would be fine

[Sub_Zero]

How it changed your game? You wasn't able to get effects from other great armors, your army was under fire from all setup teams, anything else?! I would like to hear the full story.

[Vapor]

How it changed your game? You wasn't able to get effects from other great armors, your army was under fire from all setup teams, anything else?! I would like to hear the full story.

Hey why don't we brainstorm a bit? Let's say cretella was playing the Sorceror because that's pretty common. This armor would allow you to break suppression caused by:

Doom blast
Raptor jump
Infiltrated havoks

Do you really not see how this would be useful vs. a hero that has a bajillion AoE abilities that can ruin your day? Grenade launchers? Doombolts? Sigil?

[Sub_Zero]

Well, let's do it.

Doom blast
Raptor jump

I go for catachans. Force melee on raptors and own them quite fast. Heretics get shotgun blasted/hit by ol' reliable and get owned on approach.

Infiltrated havoks

I go for spotters that will help to shut them down and spot them.

And to negate any AOE damage (doom blasts, grenade launchers) I go for 2nd armor that fits perfectly to negate any AOE damage.

I see no point to buy something for 175 / 35 in this MU. No point to buy it in any MU given its cost.

[Cheah18]

How it changed your game? You wasn't able to get effects from other great armors, your army was under fire from all setup teams, anything else?! I would like to hear the full story.

Well he was using his worship infiltration a lot and used it with his havocs to get my men in close before unleashing the heavy bolter. He used this cleverly to take out my sent. He also used doomblast a lot obvs.

You said in your last post 'I'll go for catas... I'll go for spotters'. That's 2 units, and even assuming you only get one its still more expensive than the upgrade, despite a unit being more useful. However upkeep and reinforcement cost is significant.

The ability allowed my every unit of mine to ignore suppression - it completely took this out the game and made a unit he'd invested resources into all but useless, and made his tics a lot less potent. The GM kited them much more easily. Not to mention how my own set up team had the edge in fire fights with his because it did not get suppressed while his did (without the refractor shield). I got ogryns later and they were awesome with the ability.

[Sub_Zero]

Ok I've been mostly agreeing with you throughout this thread so you don't need to get all worked up. What I said is still 100% relevant, and I even agreed with you here. I said despite it performing really well, it still might be a little too expensive for 1v1. I used it in a teamgame yes but that does not mean I'm too dumb to realise 1v1 is a different ball game when making my/justifying your point.

I was kidding =) Don't worry, I am not that retarded like somebody here to post such nonsense

That is good that you have managed to successfully play with this wargear. But I really feel like my combination would have done better. If he had no raptors then I would not have bought catachans, spotters would have done the job on their own against havocs. But catachans become cheaper in the next update, now it will be a must have unit if your opponent has melee units. Catachans are really good vs melee units. In t2 you purchase the shield for your heavy weapon team and it becomes immune to suppression. Ogryns would love to receive no damage rather than negate suppression. 3rd armor and spotters can make that happen.

[Maestro Cretella]

Sub_Zero, your thinking is too narrow. You're thinking "this is pretty much better, so I should just use this." Comparing spotters, catachans and Carapace armor, and just deciding that one is better and the rest should be ignored, is way too simplistic. They are all different in complex ways, and this has a huge number of implications in a game with over a hundred possible matchups. All of these can be used and can work effectively, even if some are better than others.

The Sorcerer is an extremely suppression dependent hero, probably more so than any other hero in the game. Negating this is going to have a major impact.

Your explanation for why your combination would have done better is not valid, because you're describing a different situation, not the one reflected in Cheah's example. His use of Carapace Armor meant that all sources of suppression were useless against his Ogryns, so the only way I could control them was by buying the Robes of Torment. By proactively getting the Carapace Armor, he forced into a reactive play of getting the Robes of Torment, locking me out of other armor choices. Without that wargear, there was absolutely nothing I could do to prevent his Ogryns from overrunning my entire army.

Against your spotters, which would blind or knock down my havoc, I would still have my heretics to unworship and doomblast the Ogryns as a form of control. This gives me a few seconds to focus fire the Ogryns with TCSM, knock them over with Warp Fire, or set up my havoc again to control the Ogryns. If you shotgun blast my heretics, that's still okay for me, because their positioning, even when knocked back, is still in front of my army, which means the Ogryns will still get doomblasted and controlled if they try to approach. It's also still okay for me because I have a second heretic squad, ready to doomblast after the suppression from the first wears off. None of this is possible when the LG uses his Carapace Armor.

Cheah is right. At the very least, he showed me that the wargear is anything but useless, even if it may be situational and overpriced. Against the Sorcerer in particular though, it is definitely by far the best choice if the Sorc player buys a havoc, which they generally do because it is a core unit for him.

[Torpid]

There's not a single MU vs chaos where IG would lack spotters though and the suppression immunity of carapace only lasts for 15seconds. I can see carapace having great utility in t1 due to any suppression potentially leading to great spikes of damage due to doombolts and grenade launchers, but it's 35 power for god sake, there's just no way that is worth it. Even with a 2x sent+2x GM build, you're not getting anywhere, it lasts for 15 seconds and the cd is long at 60 seconds, nah it's not worth it at all, especially considering you are forced to blob, not to mention the upkeep cost of spotters is totally off-set by their utility (retreat killing with incendiary, 2 suppression counters, mortar to force off any squad and mortar to stop caps.

[Sub_Zero]

Let me voice my position clearly and for the last time.

I don't think the wargear is useless. I do think its cost is not justifiable.

So blaming me in narrow and simplistic thinking is nothing but an insult.

I would still have my heretics to unworship and doomblast the Ogryns as a form of control. This gives me a few seconds to focus fire the Ogryns with TCSM, knock them over with Warp Fire, or set up my havoc again to control the Ogryns.

Let's assume I have the third armor that gives defensive bonuses (damage reduction, ability knockback immunity). I can just charge my ogryns into your forces and no tools listed by you won't help you to stop them. Heretics get stomped in seconds, Warp Fire doesn't disrupt my ogryns, TCSM do less damage and your havocs don't fire at all. Spotters help out to shut them down.
And what we have if I choose the 1st armor to support my ogryns. Ogryns have 15 seconds to take out your havocs, heretics use this time to damage them as hard as they can (super heavy armor helps ogryns a bit here), Tzeentch marines unleash their OP damage, you disrupt my ogryns with Warp fire.
Do I need to say again that the 1st armor is the worst when it comes to support ogryns?
And other important notes. I pay more to be in a worse situation (1st armor). I pay less to be in a winning situation (3rd armor).
Is that enough to understand that ogryns don't like being supported by 1st armor? And they do like when you support them with 3rd armor. You pretty much need a khorne dread to stop them.
I don't know why this armor hasn't been touched at all. It is clearly that it is overpriced. I remember how some wargears of the LC were criminally overpriced too. They were reworked and have become viable to use. Only cost like 100 / 20 can be adequate for such a situational piece of wargear. At least it will be fair compared to 100 / 20 Sorcerer's Sigil of the Rift that allows you to just force a retreat on any setup team in T1 making your 250 / 30 investment useless or your opponent will have to pay for not retreating.

[Maestro Cretella]

It is narrow and simplistic thinking. I'm sorry if you take it as an insult, but you're being extremely stubborn about it.

You're completely wrong about the Flak Jacket in this in this case, and you're choosing to ignore the things I've said. You can't just charge your Ogryns in, because they are still vulnerable to suppression, which means they can still be controlled.

The Sorcerer doesn't deal with units like Ogryns by damaging them. He does it by controlling them. It doesn't matter that heretics "get stomped," because that's already expected no matter what. Their purpose is not to fight Ogryns, it's to control them, and if the LG has the Flak Jacket, the heretics can still do this. If he has the Carapace armor, they can't. Spotters do not shut down havocs infinitely, which is why heretic suppression can be used to buy the havocs time to set up again. Keep in mind that I have two heretics, which means at least separate two instances of doomblast suppression, and sometimes more. I don't think you understand that for the Sorcerer, being able to control the Ogryns, even for just a few seconds by a havoc before it gets hit by a spotter, is much more valuable than any scenario that allows them to run free.

Do I need to say this again? If the LG has the Carapace Armor, heretics aren't doing much damage to the Ogryns because it's a losing battle for heretics anyway, and because the Ogryns can simultaneously ignore the heretics and disrupt them with their charge. Moreover, Ogryns are now getting squad wipes on heretics, who can't cover their own retreat with suppression. Tzeentch Chaos Space Marines can't do enough damage before Ogryns get in if the Ogryns are not being controlled. Havoc and heretic suppression give TCSM the time they need to do that damage. Warp Fire is a delayed skillshot ability with a very small width, making it impractical against fast, moving targets; to use it effectively and reliably against a unit like Ogryns, it needs to be combined with suppression.

The common theme here is control, which for the Sorcerer mostly means suppression. Ogryns that can't be suppressed are far and away the worst case scenario for the Sorcerer. It's not even close, even if the flak jacket is better in more matchups and is more reasonably priced.

Cheah (and myself, being on the receiving end) discovered from real experience that negating suppression against the most suppression dependent hero in the game is extremely valuable, more so than reducing received damage. You're trying to deny this with theorycrafting.

[Torpid]

The havocs are infinitely useless considering the LG can just run in to tie them up and the spotters can force them off instantly with a mortar shell behind them. Two havocs might make a difference though, or noise marines.

[Sub_Zero]

I get your point. I see what you mean. But that changes nothing for me. I will be able to pull off my combo because I know when to use abilities and how to position my squads and other stuff. You are crafting theories too, by the way. That is what we do on this forum. We are not in a real game here. So every post is a theory.

Aren't you stubborn (not exactly you, Cretella) to see that the wargear is overpriced? It has its uses, nobody argues about that. But isn't 175 / 35 too much? At the very least put the cost in lines with his other armors.

[Tex]

Maestro vs Sub_Zero! gogo!

[Ace of Swords]

Maestro vs Sub_Zero! gogo!

Codex get your stream up

[sk4zi]

am i the only one seeing, that "Sub_Zero´s combo" cost more than this one armor?

its 2 power investments. (wargear + squad)

mostly its not even nessecary for IG to tie up a dev.
i also wrote this in the spotters Thread.
if all that GM are not supressed by any case they just can focus fire the supression team to death.

go 3 GM with that armor and chaos can do nothing exept fast tech and bring a vehicle.

[Torpid]

Or they could go noise marines and double gls...

[Toilailee]

Okay just one quick thing I need to point out about this wargear.

There is _never_ a reason to get it in t1, only time I can remember doing it was when I was trolling riku with 5gm (and failing horribly). It is avaivable in t1 ye, but you only ever get it in t2 when you need your plasma gm or ogryns to be able to deal with supression. And even then, as others have pointed out, his other armors/wargear or a new unit is usually a better idea.

It is a kinda niche wargear. It has it's uses but most of the time you have better options for dealing with supression.

ps. a fun fact, 80-90% of the times when I buy this wargear it is solely for baseraping purposes.

[crazyman64335]

toil isn't that the only reason you get anti suppression wargears is for baseraping?

[Tex]

I think you are missing the fact that he suggested it should only cost 100-20 Toil. What once was niche use, now becomes tidal wave of use.

[Torpid]

Well I suggested 150-25, but number suggestions are always subject to change, of course we should dwell on them after we come to a conclusion about the premises for change!

[sk4zi]

actually i find it can be toned down to 30 power...
but there are many wargears which are more expensive than squads. even in T1

[Sub_Zero]

Asked Caeltos about his opinion about the matter via personal messages. He didn't reply/had no time to reply. Hence I see no point for us to discuss it. Everyone will stay with his opinion. Now I am heading to the thread about Sigil of the rift. Gonna leave there my opinion about that wargear being incredibly overpowered.

[Dark Riku]

Asked Caeltos about his opinion about the matter via personal messages. He didn't reply/had no time to reply. Hence I see no point for us to discuss it.

Whut? °_O This makes no sense at all.
Although I encourage you to not keep "discussing" anymore.

Now I am heading to the thread about Sigil of the rift. Gonna leave there my opinion about that wargear being incredibly overpowered.

Ok... Not helping this topic at all.

[Sub_Zero]

Whut? °_O This makes no sense at all.

This does make sense. Are you responsible for balancing? Or maybe Torpid? Or maybe Tex? Or maybe am I? Caeltos is. And if he doesn't give his comments about the matter then he gives no fuck about the matter and hence what is the point for us to stubbornly trying to prove our "truths" to each other?

Ok... Not helping this topic at all.

When you will have your rights to moderate the forum then I will be listening to your words. Report my message. But I highly doubt that someone will consider that as an off-topic message. I am talking about my previous messages, not about this one. You led me to off-topic.