2.3 Patch Notes

[sk4zi]

didnt read the whole thread.

i actually love all the changes !

it really changes the meta and makes it more interesting to play, again
thanks!

p.s. and again many of my suggestions were implemented

[Bahamut]

why buff orks but bo nerfs to wb? :S

I like the changes to nids but 2 of them

carnifex bs gonna be a bit too good against some squads dunno if decreasing cooldown is a good idea

also without numbers looks too good. why don't split this in 2 globals ans only give either a horma squad or a terma squad and reduce cost accordingly?

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

well he has fixed the wb, the only problem he had was stacking health regeneration which he clearly states he made singular in the patch notes.

[Ace of Swords]

And what about the cost of it and all the perks it gives?

[Raffa]

Warboss is still controlled by suppression and knockback; he needs stormboyz pretty much every single game so at least you know what you're facing. This matchup is easiest for races that can quickly counter-initiate against jump infantry. Hard.

Angry Bitz is fine for me. Tho you're welcome to try and change my opinion this weekend Ace :p

[Bahamut]

well he has fixed the wb, the only problem he had was stacking health regeneration which he clearly states he made singular in the patch notes.

meant weirdboy.. tho WarBoss needs UYC looked at IMO

[Forestradio]

*sigh*

Here's a replay where interceptors kick the everliving shit out of an SM army.

An SM army with ASM and a force commander. And later on LC terminators and vanguard veterans.

[Helios]

* Artillery Spotter Smoke Bomb effect reduced from 90% vision/weapon range to 50%*

Can you seriously not do that? I agree that 90% was very convenient, bordering on unfair, but CL has the least amount of ways to deal with multiple suppression teams. LG can bog you down with fire power and Inq can use HotW to de set-up the targeted squad but the CL can only run in and hope not to get caught in the arch of not only the first squad but any covering it too. I would say a 66% reduction would be more than appropriate. You're already giving Flare a longer cooldown. Are you expecting the Cata cost reduction to make up for this??

[Sub_Zero]

All races but Eldar and IG have "jump" units in T1. That means you will force off any setup team just by jumping on it/bursting out of the ground. Eldar have the most annoying counter measure to setup teams - snipers. They will just kill all models of your setup team if you don't move it/retreat it. However it takes some time to do so. IG has the worst counter (the cheapest anti-suppression unit though). Spotters are the only anti-suppression team unit that can't force off a setup team on their own. You need some follow up in a form of ranged focus fire or your hero. And the thing is that the follow up can be stopped/delayed by any race. I don't want to say that this fix should not be done though, I want to see how this will play out. But I believe there will be some problems now for heroes (can't easily tie it up now) and sentinels (can't get close safely anymore for a stomp). Catachans become cheaper though. Here is the balancing decision =)

[Batpimp]

* Artillery Spotter Smoke Bomb effect reduced from 90% vision/weapon range to 50%*

Can you seriously not do that? I agree that 90% was very convenient, bordering on unfair, but CL has the least amount of ways to deal with multiple suppression teams. LG can bog you down with fire power and Inq can use HotW to de set-up the targeted squad but the CL can only run in and hope not to get caught in the arch of not only the first squad but any covering it too. I would say a 66% reduction would be more than appropriate. You're already giving Flare a longer cooldown. Are you expecting the Cata cost reduction to make up for this??

I don't understand. With flare and a artillery spotter that's like a minute of locking down a unit, specifically a HWT. How is that not enough? if you add catas that's 3 disruptions from long range. This doesn't account for the sentinel possibly moving in.

Maybe you are right it does seem harder for the Commisar to disrupt but all commanders have some weakness...

[Phoenix]

* Artillery Spotter Smoke Bomb effect reduced from 90% vision/weapon range to 50%*

Can you seriously not do that? I agree that 90% was very convenient, bordering on unfair, but CL has the least amount of ways to deal with multiple suppression teams. LG can bog you down with fire power and Inq can use HotW to de set-up the targeted squad but the CL can only run in and hope not to get caught in the arch of not only the first squad but any covering it too. I would say a 66% reduction would be more than appropriate. You're already giving Flare a longer cooldown. Are you expecting the Cata cost reduction to make up for this??

I don't understand. With flare and a artillery spotter that's like a minute of locking down a unit, specifically a HWT. How is that not enough? if you add catas that's 3 disruptions from long range. This doesn't account for the sentinel possibly moving in.

Maybe you are right it does seem harder for the Commisar to disrupt but all commanders have some weakness...

The Commissar can use his carapace armor to get supression immunity though.

[Helios]

* Artillery Spotter Smoke Bomb effect reduced from 90% vision/weapon range to 50%*

Can you seriously not do that? I agree that 90% was very convenient, bordering on unfair, but CL has the least amount of ways to deal with multiple suppression teams. LG can bog you down with fire power and Inq can use HotW to de set-up the targeted squad but the CL can only run in and hope not to get caught in the arch of not only the first squad but any covering it too. I would say a 66% reduction would be more than appropriate. You're already giving Flare a longer cooldown. Are you expecting the Cata cost reduction to make up for this??

I don't understand. With flare and a artillery spotter that's like a minute of locking down a unit, specifically a HWT. How is that not enough? if you add catas that's 3 disruptions from long range. This doesn't account for the sentinel possibly moving in.

Maybe you are right it does seem harder for the Commisar to disrupt but all commanders have some weakness...

Who in the world uses both Flare and the Smoke shell for one single HWT?????? And the duration is not the problem. The problem is that the effectiveness off the range debuff is not enough so it does not "lock down" the squad. CL has had Flare since retail, if it had been a sufficient counter to set up teams, why add spotters at all? Caeltos added them because IG just had too many difficulties versus supression squads. But now, it's pretty much the exact same as Flare in effect, bringing the CL back to square one.

As far as Carapace Armor giving supression immunity; why do you need both a piece of wargear and a supposed "counter" unit when factions with jump troops only need one? Let’s focus on just the armor though and take the spotters out for just a sec. Not only that but it doesn't give him immunity to damage, so other squads (plus that HWT until he gets out of the firing arch) are still gonna hurt him. further more, now you've used execute on a GM you cannot retreat anymore, so if any squads focus on it, you have to baby sit it to make sure it doesn’t die.

So let’s recap… Faction with jump troops: 1. Jump in on set up squad 2. Move in with rest of army after they’re tied up. CL with Carapace armor: 1. Must have other squad to execute 2. Must devote additional attention and micro to executed squad since it can no longer retreat 3. Must skirt CL around firing arch 4. Finally after ALL that, and the CL has tied up the squad, rest of army can move in. The amount of actions needed does not even compare.

I'm not saying don't change the smoke shells, just don't make it a near exact copy of Flare that never really resolved set up teams in retail in the first place.

[Vapor]

Spotters will still have the mortar shell though... I'm gonna wait to try it out before passing judgement

[Torpid]

and mortar shell is a stronger set-up team counter than the smoke shell, not to mention you always have the power sword inspire+flank/ol' reliable combo to deal with suppression.

[Helios]

and mortar shell is a stronger set-up team counter than the smoke shell, not to mention you always have the power sword inspire+flank/ol' reliable combo to deal with.

Sometimes it's not. Keeping them stuck in the smoke means if they have retreat they go through the process of packing back up. A knock down means they can just instantly retreat once they get back up (So in other words, it's almost the same in terms of time lost). Once again, why do I need both a piece of wargear AND a "counter" unit when other factions just need one or the other? If sword inspire+flank/ol' reliable combo was good enough then, we wouldn't have gotten spotters in the first place.

[Batpimp]

and mortar shell is a stronger set-up team counter than the smoke shell, not to mention you always have the power sword inspire+flank/ol' reliable combo to deal with.

Sometimes it's not. Keeping them stuck in the smoke means if they have retreat they go through the process of packing back up. A knock down means they can just instantly retreat once they get back up (So in other words, it's almost the same in terms of time lost). Once again, why do I need both a piece of wargear AND a "counter" unit when other factions just need one or the other? If sword inspire+flank/ol' reliable combo was good enough then, we wouldn't have gotten spotters in the first place.

Not sure then man. I suck as IG but with the artillery and LC I can tell you it was more than easy enough to stop a HWT from causing me problems, which is why I think the smoke nerf happened. Who uses smoke and flare? I do. At the same time every engagement? no. As sparingly as I could manage. Let me tell you HWT weren't the problem anymore.

[Nurland]

Regarding other races needing only one unit. Jump troops are way more expensive to buy, cost more upkeep, bleed and are more likely to wipe than spotters...

[Helios]

Regarding other races needing only one unit. Jump troops are way more expensive to buy, cost more upkeep, bleed and are more likely to wipe than spotters...

Spotters + Power Sword = 390/50
ASM (since they're the most expensive jump troops) = 450/50 a 60 req difference and no power difference. Not that much more expensive honestly.

Upkeep is true.

Bleed and more likely to wipe are all dependent on how well you use them. Keep in mind that once the two mortar abilities are on CD, the Spotters do almost no damage with their pea shooters while ASM remain potent dps attacking other ranged units once they force off the set up team.

[Dark Riku]

Nurland never mentioned a power sword. Nor is one needed to counter a suppression team. And no, it doesn't depend on how you use them. All jump units are more likely to be wiped and bleed than spotter due to their natures.

Unless you use spotter to force melee stuff or something crazy like that.

[David-CZ]

I agree that giving Reapers FoF does seem a bit lore unfriendly. But if it's needed then I guess it's ok.

On another note, has the Heart of Darkness made any progress to being reworked? I recall it being discussed in one of the balance threads.

[Helios]

Nurland never mentioned a power sword.

He touched on my comment of why does IG need both a counter unit and a piece of wargear to counter to suppression when other factions juts need one. Which was a reply to:

and mortar shell is a stronger set-up team counter than the smoke shell, not to mention you always have the power sword inspire+flank/ol' reliable combo to deal with.

PS (the wargear) and O'reliable (catachans). It's all encompassed within the discussion.

[Dark Riku]

Still not what he said.

Regarding other races needing only one unit. Jump troops are way more expensive to buy, cost more upkeep, bleed and are more likely to wipe than spotters...

Don't make so many assumptions.

[Torpid]

My point being that even post nerf you spotters will perform admirably against set-up teams due to their mortar being a better counter anyway and that not being nerfed + you can use other things such as stomp/ol' reliable/power sword which all although only soft counters to suppression, serve as a generalist upgrade that will help against much more of the enemy's composition other than just suppression.

[Helios]

Still not what he said.

Regarding other races needing only one unit. Jump troops are way more expensive to buy, cost more upkeep, bleed and are more likely to wipe than spotters...

Don't make so many assumptions.

He didn't have to. If you want to ignore relevant parts of the discussion go ahead. Please take those blinders off if you want to contribute.

My point being that even post nerf you spotters will perform admirably against set-up teams due to their mortar being a better counter anyway and that not being nerfed + you can use other things such as stomp/ol' reliable/power sword which all although only soft counters to suppression, serve as a generalist upgrade that will help against much more of the enemy's composition other than just suppression.

My concern was never really just one set up team since the mortar shell does handle that. It's multiple ones covering each other and the fact that now Smoke shells is pretty much "proxi flare" which as I have said, flare was great for blobs (hence Caeltos' concern of smoke shells being too good for them) but not as much for staggered supp teams since you still have to maneuver around the firing arch.

[Sub_Zero]

The more setup teams the more counters you need. 2x setup teams are a big investment. Spotters can deal with 2x setup teams actually, you just need to act quickly and don't fail with your micro.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Ive been playing alot of lord comissar vs alot of the top players, and i can say with certainty that he has absolutely no problems with set up teams, unless ur opponent buys 3 at which point u just play defensively till t2. if u buy catas then spotters which u should honestly do since catas to me are a mandatory purchase in every matchup since theyre utility is just amazing. add in spotters and lol at supression teams, tbh i find ig probly have the best anti supression atm and can only run into a problem with 3 devs or more. sooooo i rest thy case

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

- Fixed Catachan Shotguns not having any sound

Wasn't this already fixed? I know it is in my version of Elite and has been pretty much since I started, so is it specific members of the squads or why is this posted?

Now that Artillery Spotters are getting their smoke shell nerfed can they finally get some more DPS? Their current range damage is basically non-existent, so would a little higher rate of fire and damage be okay to give them now?

Oh yea, I had a funny idea a few days ago, I saw the Chaos Predator's turret was placed on top of a completed Chaos Rhino chassis,
I know chaos is lacking in mobility and transportation compared to other races with Transport vehicles, so what about giving Chaos a Chaos Rhino for tier 2? Preferably with a small low dps storm bolter just to keep it from driving into the enemy when you target enemies.


On another note; I agree with the Eldar players here, that giving Dark Reapers FoF seems a little unnecessary, especially when it goes against lore and TT rules.

EDIT: Ahh yes I remembered, The Interceptor's had their electric teleporter effects removed because it was showing through the FoW, however the Justicar's teleporter still shows this effect, though I am not certain if it shows through the FoW, but I believe it is possible, someone should check it out.

[Asmon]

I will edit the next Eldar Codex then. You're welcome.

[David-CZ]

...Chaos Rhino for tier 2?

Not sure how this would affect the game but the idea of 2 tics jumping out of a Razorback sounds pretty scary. Can't say if I'm for or against, though.

...even the Avatar has FoF iirc. Dark Reapers are supposed to be "Slow and Purposeful", which means they can't run but they can shoot their heavy weapons while moving.

Avatar can FoF in TT? Also I don't know if Reapers can fire while moving in TT but it seems both balanced and lore friendly that they don't in DOW. Imagine firing a rocket launcher while running

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

Not sure how this would affect the game but the idea of 2 tics jumping out of a Razorback sounds pretty scary. Can't say if I'm for or against, though.

Does that really seem so different than sluggas jumping out of a trukk?

And it wouldn't be a Razorback it would be a Rhino APC, it would have a small storm bolter turret similar to the storm bolter on the Chaos Dreadnought, by the way that weapon doesn't make any sound when it fires.