Sternguard Rounds

[Magus Magi]

The previous post was clearly confusing people so I'm going to lay out what I am suggesting in extreme brief:

Switch Kraken round dps vs. SHI to 1.25 instead of 1.00, and switch Vengeance round dps against SHI to 1.00 instead of 1.25 (NOPE! Indrid corrected my math on this count ) (Maybe knock some damage vs. SHI off Vengeance rounds...)

Switch Dragonfire round and Vengeance round values against structures and defensive structures (i.e. turrets).

Purpose: To provide additional incentives to switch between the four rounds. (Hellfire and Vengeance have VERY clearly defined roles that remain unchanged by the proposed changes).


[size=85]I'm still not feeling great about 2 of the Sternguard round choices.

The Crowd Favorites:

Hellfire rounds are, far and away, the best round choice on a Sternguard squad. The Sternguard get purchased more for their Hellfire rounds, and the free sergeant, than for any of the other three.

Vengeance rounds are much better now that they have been returned to their full range. They still don't do much damage to vehicles, but they have a purpose which warrants their regular use. When a vehicle shows up, I'm guessing most players switch to vengeance rounds before returning to hellfire.

Room for Growth:

It very rarely feels like there is much of a point to switching to Kraken rounds. They still underperform. I don't think it would take much to give them their own niche. And Dragonfire rounds are practically non-existent. The stars have to align for Dragonfire rounds to come into play.

Why I Keep Coming Back to This:

Here you have this interesting squad, added by the mod, with its own unique mechanic, and it feels like it's practically binary. Hellfire until vehicle, then vengeance. Is there any unit on the battlefield with normal unit armor? Stay Hellfire. Is there an enemy hero on the battlefield? Stay Hellfire.

State of the Unit as it Stands:

Sternguard soak hits like Tacs (maybe better...level loss vs. free sergeant), but their damage is very conservative (except Hellfire...). They're easy to tie up because you only ever need to worry about one of them, and SM armies are not very big. They have that great ATSKNF, and the 50% capping speed.

Please don't get me wrong. I recognize that SG have real strengths.

Meat for a Beta Test:

It would be easy to make Hellfire rounds the go-to for damaging gens/turrets. That would give them a use beyond attacking garrisons, which they sorely need. They have the coolest special effect too...which just makes it worse.

It would be easy to make something happen with Kraken rounds. A range increase, a damage increase, some kind of synergy effect...maybe have Kraken rounds replace Vengeance rounds as the primary damage dealer against super heavy infantry. After all, Vengeance rounds are always going to be useful against vehicles.

This Beta series would be a great time to playtest some interesting Sternguard effects, just to see what they looked like. Mess with the pricing, and with the rounds, and see if there isn't room to build a better unit.[/size]

[Arbit]

The vengeance rounds range increase was a sizable buff against stuff like walkers and aggressive transport play, particularly against the wartrukk. For a sustained dps weapon, the earlier they start firing the more damage they can do against these sorts of targets, so the range increase effectively increases their damage. Give them a damage boost with something like mark target and you'll get quite good results out of these guys against any sort of vehicle.

Something I think you're still not getting is that you can't buff stern rounds without threatening the viability of tactical marines. If you buff kraken rounds then you risk making plas tacs obsolete.

Almost every faction has a commander, infantry, heavy infantry, SHI, and vehicle armor unit. Throw in 2v2s/3v3s (which I think you play) where you will encounter multiple factions and it's basically assured that you will need to swap between hellfire, kraken, and vengeance rounds. I know I am constantly swapping them. It's a shame that dragonfire rounds aren't broadly applicable but they're a nice thing to have in your back pocket just in case.

I'd leave them alone. I think they're quite good, to the point that I get in almost every game, and a unit almost being an "autobuy" suggests that internal balance might not be where it needs to be.

[Torpid]

That's the thing. Sternguards are not in anyway meant to be an auto-buy. They are not in the tradition sense then an 'upgrade', they're just an alternative variant, just like missle tacs are to plasma tacs as plasma tacs are to flamer tacs.

[Codex]

After a certain point in the game, tactical marines NEED a weapon to stay relevant. They are generalist, but are very lackluster at being generalist as the game progresses. That's why they need the weapon, to specialise more and give them more utility/ more of a clearly defined role.

Sternguard are meant to be better at being generalist (indeed the epitome of generalist infantry), but as a result any significant competition between the specialisation of tactical marine upgrades versus the generalist nature of Sternguard will see SG becoming an auto-buy upgrade.

[Magus Magi]

I figured that the majority of you wouldn't want a SG buff.

That said, my two ideas (in bold) at the bottom of my previous post do not advocate a buff. If anything, they advocate giving Kraken rounds the damage value currently assigned to Vengeance rounds against super heavy inf. Also, I'm suggesting making dragonfire rounds the best vs. buildings. That could easily mean making the other rounds useless against them.

I know you guys are used to hearing me go, "buff, buff." There may be a bit of that in my post, but my main proposals do not call for any net DPS increase. In fact, what I'm suggesting is almost a nerf. I just think Caeltos should be incentivizing round switching as part of SG gameplay.

Using the vengeance round anti-structure dps for dragonfire rounds (while nerfing all other round DPS vs structures), and giving kraken rounds the vengeance round DPS vs shi, would encourage round switching with no net DPS buff. I think it would make for MUCH more interesting SG play too.

See, what I'm suggesting does not injure existing hellfire or vengeance round use, and will increase incentives to occasionally make the switch to both kraken and dragonfire without increasing net DPS.

Sorry for any awkward phrasing, I'm posting from my phone.

[Broodwich]

dragonfire rounds are freakin awesome, dunno what you mean

[Indrid]

Kraken already do the same DPS as vengeance against SHI, and better vs all other infantry types including commanders. Kraken are for HI/SHI - they already have their niche, there already is a reason to change to them. You get quite a bit less DPS vs HI with hellfire or vengeance. You should be changing between hellfire and kraken most of the time.

Hellfire for LI and comms
Kraken for HI/SHI
Vengeance for AV/SHI
Dragonfire for cover/garrisons

That's already enough switching for maximum performance.

Last time you wanted vengeance rounds to get a range increase, they did, and you still want moar changes? They do fine, and as said are not meant to be an auto-buy upgrade.

[Magus Magi]

That's right. Last time I wanted Vengeance rounds to get a range increase because it made no sense for them to remain at a shorter range.

Indrid, I admire your casts immensely (I watch them all, and talk them up to all my buddies), but your logic here is fallacious. Just because I was, in a limited sense, correct in a previous assessment of SG balance (a beta change was implemented), doesn't somehow preclude my making further observations. If anything, my opinions should have some additional degree of credibility, now that it has been established that at least one of my past talking points was worth a gameplay change.

Also, Kraken don't do the same dps against SHI (except they do...see Indrid's post two down from this one! ). I'm almost certain of it (shouldn't have said that ). I'll go right after finishing this message and check the change log, but I believe vengeance rounds are still superior against SHI. I think that should change. Vengeance rounds already have a niche that no other round can touch: anti-vehicle.

I want to incentivize the frequent use of a unique game mechanic. My suggestion is aimed at just that. Not making SG an autobuy, or increasing their damage.

(Also, I feel I should note that hellfire rounds still seem to be the better option against normal infantry in cover than dragonfire rounds...which significantly cuts into the dragonfire round territory)

[Magus Magi]

Nothing to see here people! Indrid proved me totally wrong. Math, never my strong point.

FROM CHANGELOG:

Bolter_kraken damage to heavy infantry armor increased from 0.87 to 1.0
Bolter_kraken damage to super heavy infantry armor increased from 0.39 to 1.0
Bolter_vengeance damage to heavy infantry armor decreased from 1.5 to 0.87
Bolter_vengeance damage to super heavy infantry armor decreased from 1.5 to 1.25

For pete's sake people, I'm not asking for ANYTHING that isn't already in the game. I'm just suggesting having Kraken rounds do 1.25 to SHI and Vengeance do 1.0. (switching value)

Also, whatever dps value is highest against structures, I'm suggesting moving that to Dragonfire rounds. (again, switching two values)

Please remember that the whole concept of a mod stems from dissatisfaction with the status quo and a desire to improve upon an existing system. The end product doesn't benefit from a "IT'S FINE THE WAY IT IS" type of mindset. Look at the way in which this mod is already subjected to constant tweaks, tests and fixes.

[Indrid]

That is because vengeance have lower base DPS (11.67), hence the higher multiplier (1.25) for SHI. They both do 14.58 DPS against SHI.

I'm not saying your opinions aren't "credible", but Sternguard are already in a good place both thematically and balance wise IMO, with rounds that all make sense. Dragonfire could be made to be better against structures, but they already have their niche and that seems like an unnecessary change. Nothing you've suggested actually changes their performance, just switches things around.

[Magus Magi]

Oh dear. Math, my mortal enemy...we meet once again.

I totally misinterpreted that as representing a DPS differentiation off of a base of 14.58. I thought that it meant that Kraken rounds do 14.58 (1.00 multiplier) damage per second to SHI, and Vengeance do 18.225 (1.25 multiplier) damage per second.

Well, I think it's fair to say you trounced me pretty soundly on that score. Remind me never to bet against a DoW II caster/high level player ever again. I suppose I might like a small nerf to Vengeance round SHI damage then.

You've also hit the nail on the head with the second part of your last post.

"Dragonfire could be made to be better against structures, but they already have their niche and that seems like an unnecessary change. Nothing you've suggested actually changes their performance, just switches things around."

My goal was just to switch things around. I just hoped to find some simple way of generating more SG round switching in game. I also agree that such a switch is largely cosmetic, maybe even unnecessary, but I think its worth doing just as a means of improving the SG gameplay experience. Why not give dragonfire rounds a new wheelhouse? Right now, vengeance rounds are as good as Kraken against SHI, the only choice for vehicle armor, and the best at damaging structures. Hellfire have both light infantry and commanders covered...that leaves dragonfire and kraken with such limited uses.

[Broodwich]

I think if you changed the effect of kraken rounds to what tacs round's look like when they use the ability it will definitely change things

Plus they totally would look cooler. I mean atm the others look sweet, why do kraken look so generic?

[Magus Magi]

I think if you changed the effect of kraken rounds to what tacs round's look like when they use the ability it will definitely change things

Plus they totally would look cooler. I mean atm the others look sweet, why do kraken look so generic?

Yeah...this ^ would be awesome.

[appiah4]

I think SG are kind of fine but mostly Meh compared to levelled tacs with weapons; their main problem is the loss of levels on upgrade, and the fact that a Lvl 3+ Tac Squad with a Sergeant and a specialist weapon almost always outclasses them.

[Black Relic]

I think SG are kind of fine but mostly Meh compared to leveled tacs with weapons; their main problem is the loss of levels on upgrade, and the fact that a Lvl 3+ Tac Squad with a Sergeant and a specialist weapon almost always outclasses them.

That isnt a problem. As codex mentions Sternguards are generalist vs every armor type. They are not specialist. It would be a huge issue if a generalist could beat a specialist squad who have a weapon that is effective against their armor type like the plasma gun.

I think if you changed the effect of kraken rounds to what tacs round's look like when they use the ability it will definitely change things

Plus they totally would look cooler. I mean atm the others look sweet, why do kraken look so generic?

Please no. I would never switch to hellfire or vengeance even if i needed to. SM is all about killing shit while looking badass doing it

[TGZero]

Do Magus's fonts keep coming in really small for some folks?

[Magus Magi]

Sorry about that. I wanted to preserve the original posts, but my platform changed as I thought about what I was really asking for and how to articulate those requests. My solution was to make my original posts small, in case someone was interested in still reading them, while using larger type to supersede those previous posts.

This balance thread wasn't really necessary, what I'm articulating is really less of a balance issue and more of a general gameplay suggestion. It really shouldn't have gone in the balance section.

I'm glad I posted it though, I learned something new. If there is someone who wants to go ahead and scrap this thread, I wouldn't object.

Slightly off topic (I keep seeing this and I want weigh in): I don't think SG are a generalist unit as the game stands now. I'd bet people purchase the SG upgrade in order to access the anti-infantry/anti-hero power of hellfire rounds 99% of the time. Versatile, yes. Flexible, sure. But generalist? I really don't think so. They have a definite specialty. I have seen a few posts on here discussing how effective hellfire rounds make SG against certain factions.

[Codex]

Slightly off topic (I keep seeing this and I want weigh in): I don't think SG are a generalist unit as the game stands now. I'd bet people purchase the SG upgrade in order to access the anti-infantry/anti-hero power of hellfire rounds 99% of the time. Versatile, yes. Flexible, sure. But generalist? I really don't think so. They have a definite specialty. I have seen a few posts on here discussing how effective hellfire rounds make SG against certain factions.

Maybe what we need is Hellfire rounds nerf?

I feel your observation is correct but your observation could suggest that hellfire rounds are too effective, rather than the other rounds being meh.

My solution was to make my original posts small, in case someone was interested in still reading them, while using larger type to supersede those previous posts.

Honestly I would prefer if you edit the post in that way feel free to write a disclaimer in an edit at the beginning saying: EDIT: this has been changed for these reasons, and say that you're bolding all the relevant sections, rather than making it tiny. That said that is my preference.

[ThongSong]

sternguard kraken and veangence rounds can actually do a suprising amount of damage when buffed with battlecry, mark target or combat stims. I think they're fine as they are.

on a side note, do dragon fire rounds do AoE?

[Tex]

I feel like vengeance rounds do too much damage to HI. They should be specifically for SHI and AV imo.

[Magus Magi]

Codex:
I hear you loud and clear, all future editing that I do will be in accord with your recommendations. The small text effect was just my effort to improvise on the fly.

Also, I agree with your statement suggesting the possibility of a Hellfire round nerf. It makes me crazy every time I see a replay where SG stay on Hellfire for the entire game, and it hurts my heart when I make an effort to switch SG rounds in game only to realize that it would have been more effective to stay on Hellfire.

SG are my favorite unit, I have a deep desire for them to remain effective. That said, I think the first step to making all of the SG rounds stand out is to kick the Hellfire dependency that unit currently has. I do think that kraken rounds are "meh." Dragonfire are great, just too limited in their purpose. If all the other rounds were terrible against buildings, that might increase dragonfire usage.

Tex:

I totally agree. Of course, I would go one step further and limit Vengeance round damage against SHI too. I think Kraken rounds should occupy the entire Heavy/Super Heavy field. Vengeance have such a unique role as AV, they really don't ever need to compete with any of the other rounds for practical viability. Kraken rounds have to compete with both Vengeance and Hellfire when it comes to what you prioritize in a firefight. Right now, I don't think Kraken usually win out.

[Atlas]

Trying to dig out numbers, I think all the Sternguard rounds do the same amount of DPS with their difference being damage type.

If this is true, I'd like to put out the thought that maybe Hellfire sees so much use not necessarily because the rounds are overpowered, but more because they fill a more unique role in the SM roster as anti-light infantry. The Tactical alternative that comes to mind would be Flamers Tacticals, but starting at T2 I think the Plasma and Missile versions of Tacticals are more useful in terms of composition.

Other alternatives to me would be Plasma Devastators and concentrated Scout fire. Plasma Devs seem good to me, especially combined with Force Commander Battlecry + For the Emperor + Librarian Tome of Time support. For Scouts though against light infantry armies like tyranids or orks I think you'd rather have them be shotgun blasting elsewhere.

Food for thought.

[Torpid]

@Atlas It's blissfully relieving to know that you are able to deduce and comprehend this concept wholly independently after a very short period of time. Magus, do you play the game or merely watch the replays? I'm not aware of your steam ID.

Obviously hellfire shouldn't be nerfed to any significant extent (that is, one great enough to force people to not buy SG for primarily an anti-infantry purpose) else it would only result in either sterns being an instant purchase because they're just so damn (cost) effective vs everything, or given no further buffs to the stern's other ammo types, sterns never being purchased at all because the specialised roles would give you far more bang for your buck.

[Atlas]

Well daww, now I'm all embarrased . Thanks!

Just a really random thought I just had.

The Sternguards have 4 ammo types (Dragonfire, Hellfire, Kraken and Vengeance) and there's ~5 armor types you face in combat ( commander, infantry, heavy infantry, super heavy infantry, and vehicles). Our current system has it with:
-------Current--------------
Dragonfire ignores cover.
Hellfire does bonus to infantry and commanders.
Kraken does bonus to heavy infantry and super heavy infantry.
Vengeance does bonus to heavy infantry, super heavy infantry, buildings and vehicles.
(Source: http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite/Sternguard_Veteran_Squad/Weapons)
-------------------------------

There's a lot of overlap on Kraken and Vengeance and the Dragonfire doesn't see much use due to the nature of ignoring cover when in T2 vehicles stomp most of it off the map as well as Hellfire receiving a bonus on most of the targets that would hide in a garrison.

Totally ignoring any lore concerns, why not spread out the bonuses a bit more to look something like this:
--------New------------------
Dragonfire: Bonus to Infantry and ignores cover. Loses commander bonus.
Hellfire: Bonus to Heavy Infantry. Loses commander + infantry bonus.
Kraken: Bonus to Super Heavy Infantry. Loses heavy bonus.
Vengeance: Bonus to Buildings and Vehicles. Loses super heavy and heavy bonus.
--------------------------------

Obviously Kraken would do bonus Heavy and etc etc what heresy but you get the idea. Just have an ammo to deal with a basic category of armor. Concerned a bit that this would make Dragonfire too good but eh, just throwing it out there.

[Lulgrim]

Trying to dig out numbers, I think all the Sternguard rounds do the same amount of DPS with their difference being damage type.

http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... eran_squad -> weapons

[Atlas]

And it seems I'm slightly corrected. The different rounds all do the same 25 damage per hit ignoring damage type, but the Vengeance Rounds only do 11.67 dps as opposed to the 14.58 dps of the other ammos.

..... why is that anyway?

[ThongSong]

I've used sternguards against marines and chaos before to fair degrees of success. their kraken rounds are no slouches against other marines and they can pull out some nasty suprises against transports esp when you combine it with a melta bomb. most players wont expect the amount of damage veng rounds can put out against rear armour esp when buffed with battlecry.

[Torpid]

And it seems I'm slightly corrected. The different rounds all do the same 25 damage per hit ignoring damage type, but the Vengeance Rounds only do 11.67 dps as opposed to the 14.58 dps of the other ammos.

..... why is that anyway?

Presumably to prevent it being too strong vs vehicles as vehicles tend to have lower hp than infantry squads, of course the modifier didn't have to be so high, but I guess I guess they just didn't want to be awkward. Maybe it was a compensation for their previous reduced range, you know so they were not completely useless vs infantry.

[Magus Magi]

Easy Torpid, your last post addressing me was hovering pretty close to a personal attack. One thing I really liked about my Carnifex/Swarmlord SHI thread, was that everyone conducted themselves in a very civil manner even though they disagreed with me.

My steam ID is magus_magi btw.

I'd like to point out that Atlas' idea to move the damage values around on the SG rounds is not at all dissimilar to my own posts. Especially when it comes to making dragonfire rounds the new anti-light armor damage type (which would undoubtedly equate to a kind of nerf because dragonfire don't do DoT...although you could always add a "fire" effect and keep the damage value the same), and eliminating Kraken/Vengeance round overlap.

His post reflects a desire, or at least it seems this way, to spread out the damage done by the various round types to ensure that they all feel adequately useful. That happens to be perfectly in line with the spirit in which I originally began this thread.

Finally, I really don't think that SG are needed to counter light infantry. Light infantry armor is the easiest to bleed in the game. Besides, SM have the heavy flamer in tier 3, the Libby smite (fix him, and we may see it more), the disruptive capabilities (ranged light infantry often travel in blobs) of the WW and assault marines, etc. In fact, I've even seen several posts on this forum describing Hellfire as overpowered against certain factions (i.e. orks, nids (believe it was in Tex's thread)).

[Torpid]

If you don't need sterns to counter infantry then why were they added? Remove them then! You can't just add units because every single thing you add makes the overall balance way more completed and hard to deal with overall. So there has to be a purpose to each implementation.

I'm just getting really tired of seeing this form of thread pop up over and over despite nobody saying anything new. Granted if the original intended purpose for the unit was based in poor logic then it makes sense to shift the role of the unit to something that the race still needs, but to say that SM of all the races need their tacticals to be even better at being tactical (versatile) seems wrong to me and is only going to lead to a useless upgrade - not something you want as remember more upgrades/units = harder to adjust overall balance, or sternguards being overpowered.