Requesting unlock of Banshee Chase Distance Thread

[Pandemic]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=424&start=110

I'd like to see this thread re-opened and the subject discussed in a more civil way, this is still a big issue and something i feel makes the Howling Banshees overpowered for their retreat killing potential.

I'd like to see what the community could come up with to make them more balanced and prevent people from losing squads to ridiculously long retreat chasing by the Banshees.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

I For one have no issue with Banshee chasing potential ,you probably left them uncontested or didn't halt them in their tracks with your units to rescue the last fleeing Model or squad ,their already been nerfed and are fragile enough

[Kvek]

I For one have no issue with Banshee chasing potential ,you probably left them uncontested or didn't halt them in their tracks with your units to rescue the last fleeing Model or squad ,their already been nerfed and are fragile enough

Yeah, they're easily forced off and if not, it's your fault for not focusing them down.

[Dark Riku]

Yeah, they're easily forced off and if not, it's your fault for not focusing them down.

Yea, because Eldar have no ways of getting them in safe -.-
So no, they are not easily forced of at all.

[Torpid]

Wow, what productive conversations we have on this forum!

This is good - person A

No, it's bad - person B.

Hear hear Caeltos, some fine balance adjustments can be made on the basis of these splendid arguments!

[Pandemic]

I'd like to hear some actual balance discussion on this rather than just these short posts.

Eldar chase potential is ridiculous, you can force off newer elite players but very good ones are hard to force off, they have too much potential and that is the problem, they can do so much damage if not countered masterfully, even a slight slip-up can mean losing a squad.

[Caeltos]

Wow, what productive conversations we have on this forum!

This is good - person A

No, it's bad - person B.

Hear hear Caeltos, some fine balance adjustments can be made on the basis of these splendid arguments!

Yeah, I know.

Now add that ten-times through private messages on steam, and you would understand how fed up I am with these type of posts.

[[Alpha]-0mega-]

Warlock global + FoF = huehuehue uded if they get in close enough.

[Torpid]

Warlock global + FoF = huehuehue uded if they get in close enough.

Infiltration on scouts + nade on set-up team, dead if they get some shots off before/after.

[David-CZ]

Warlock global + FoF = huehuehue uded if they get in close enough.

I'm quite certain Warlock's global and FoF no longer stacks.

[crazyman64335]

no they do not stack movement speed

[Broodwich]

What it really needs is to stop stacking with melee charge and/or make their charge cooldown longer

[Kvek]

No it doesn't, if you force them off before they can do anything they are useless, unless you are riku who thinks that shees should be used to flank the enemy instead of counter initiation...

[Codex]

You use them for both. They excel at doing both, since both scenarios gets shees into the critical positions without taking too much harass. Saving them for counterinitiation implies that you are zoning him out and sitting on map control with a setup team (or just rangers I suppose). If you don't have map control your shees would be better served flanking the enemy.

[appiah4]

Banshees already have their Warshout to make melee counters very difficult. On top of this they have things like Warlock global, fleet of foot, spirit stones and phase shift (?) to make it stupidly difficult to force off a banshee squad with ranged infantry: if they are unlucky they are forced off, if you are unlucky you lose your squad. So basically, you can not engage them on your own terms before you get decent anti infantry vehicles, and that a) just never happens for some races b) becomes absolutely useless in T3.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

if banshees get shot before they go into melee they lose. if they do not they generally win. if your banshees get hit on the way in you generally need to pull them back out and put them in the corner until you get a better opportunity or you're bleeding and potentially getting them wiped.

[Primitive]

its such a useless dicussion .... getting retreat killed by banshees is jut what u get for not paying attention vs a eldar player ..... its like getting retreat killed by tics, sluggas, jumptroops and whatever else has the ability to chase down ur units -.-

[Ace of Swords]

way to miss the whole point.

[Pandemic]

its such a useless dicussion .... getting retreat killed by banshees is jut what u get for not paying attention vs a eldar player ..... its like getting retreat killed by tics, sluggas, jumptroops and whatever else has the ability to chase down ur units -.-

Thing is, Banshees excluded, those squads can't chase for 15 seconds.

[Dark Riku]

No it doesn't, if you force them off before they can do anything they are useless,

So much wisdom coming from you yet again. XD
Can't you see how this applies to EVERYTHING? XD

if banshees get shot before they go into melee they lose. if they do not they generally win. if your banshees get hit on the way in you generally need to pull them back out and put them in the corner until you get a better opportunity or you're bleeding and potentially getting them wiped.

It's a tad bit more complex than this... Run shees into tacs and shees will win even if tacs shoot from the the moment they become visible. Like Codex said they are best used in flanks or counter initiation which Eldar can pull of very nicely.

its such a useless dicussion .... getting retreat killed by banshees is jut what u get for not paying attention vs a eldar player ..... its like getting retreat killed by tics, sluggas, jumptroops and whatever else has the ability to chase down ur units -.-

Are you serious? °_O

[Kvek]

No it doesn't, if you force them off before they can do anything they are useless,

So much wisdom coming from you yet again. XD
Can't you see how this applies to EVERYTHING? XD

Could you just fucking stop with it? Everytime I say that shees aren't OP you call me a troll
Yeah, because everything is squishy and costs 40 req to reinforce per model.

[Codex]

To be honest both sides need to chill out and stop getting riled up. Or this thread will get locked too.

getting retreat killed by banshees is jut what u get for not paying attention vs a eldar player ..... its like getting retreat killed by tics, sluggas, jumptroops and whatever else has the ability to chase down ur units -.-

That's a pretty broad stroke generalisation. And clearly that's a pretty controversial statement for some.

[Torpid]

Well it's obviously not a fair comparison to say that it's as easy to lose squads to shees as it is any t1 melee, because obviously shees are faster and fleet lets them chase for longer.

On the other hand it's not fair to say shees are the 'best' melee squad in t1, because no other melee squad costs anything like what they do (500/25), nor do they bleed 40 req per model loss.

Ultimately you just have to punish the eldar for not using his shees conservatively. You always have to acknowledge that going into a fight vs eldar is not wise unless you're favoured. Of course the eldar won't fight you unless they're favoured though, which is why you need to pressure them with your HI units at the front to reduce bleed, which is why 2x tacs can do amazingly against eldar - pressure at the cost of 0 bleed. If you catch his squads isolating you can deal tremendous amounts of bleed to them, especially banshees, if he is blobbing up then push his gens, or split-cap everything. Banshees aren't OP atm innately, I do think that the WSE with his special melee attack and channeling runes does make them OP though.

[Bahamut]

double tacs vs eldar.. that's screaming for shees and shuriken in t1 and WG in t2, which i dont think SM have an actual answer to

Anyway, i'd say banshees are fine as they are but indeed their retreat kill potential does seem a bit unfair to some races (namely IG)

[Torpid]

2x tacs and ASM, alongside fully upgraded scouts. Works wonders on small maps and is still viable on bigger ones. I imagine that build is optimal on teams too.

I'm not sure how you find banshees too effective vs IG? If the eldar can manage to fit in the huge req imbalance from getting t2 banshees OR manages to not bleed themselves out of the game via t1 banshees, then all the rest to them :S

[Bahamut]

i meant the retreat kill potential of shees seems unfair if you're looking at it from IG's perspective, since IG has barely anything good at retreat killing

The ASM either jump the WG or the shuri platform, no matter which they choose the other will be shutting down the tacs and shees are there to protect both.. dunno it seems like a catch 22 to me. Also price difference is quite huge, shees + WG + shuri vs 2 tacs and ASM. I would of swapped the ASM for a dread in that scenario.. just me

[Torpid]

You have a hero, all three of which are fairly competent in melee. Besides, you're getting the ASM/2x tacs in t1, so the price is irrelevant, come t2 you're going to have really nice amounts of experience. Plus the two tacs mean the eldar can't fight you at ranged without shields/suppression and they have to figure out a way of holding you off of their gens/bleeding them to death in t1.

ASM + 2 tacs will wipe a SCP so fast it is insane, if you have sterns you'll probably just wipe it. Then ASM get two jumps so you can just use one to KB the SCP and force it off instantly due to the ranged fire (especially high if you add a RB, which you shouldn't if he gets to t2 first/gets a WL out), and then they can tie up the WG. The thing is you're likely going to get to t2 first, you spend very little power compared to what the eldar must, yet you bleed the eldar far more and end up with equal or even superior map control. Shurikens are also very easily wiped by grenades from the scouts + tac fire.

IG don't want/need retreat wiping potential. Just compare the relative bleed of IG and eldar units...

[FiSH]

IG don't want/need retreat wiping potential. Just compare the relative bleed of IG and eldar units...

This. Bahamut, hopefully you don't think IG should be good at both pew pew and retreat killing... And even so, they are still good at retreat killing - just plant those IEDs all over the map.

[Bahamut]

no no no no. First of all, GM with both seargent and comissar has 59.4 dps, same as a guardian squad with exarch, so dunno why you say IG more pew pew than eldar

And again, my point is that the retreat killing potential of eldar SEEMS too much compared to other races, specially IG. I mean, eldar already got nades on guardians PLUS the shees

[Torpid]

Yes, just completely ignore my point then and argue against a strawman...