Why remove NF for GKI? SS Psykbolt

[HandSome SoddiNg]

I understand the cause of removal for this ability ,instantaneously wiping out suppression teams ,although it might be the case in T2 . I rather they retain their Nemesis focus in T3 . Else they just be a Jump unit Teleporting twice without Merciless strike ,they get ripped to shreds Endgame ,their the only jump unit without the CC ability to counteract Melee-oriented squads. Their easily forced off in T2 when up against Overwhelming adversities and face defeatism against
Melee squads KCSM/Sluggaz/Shees,etc . When their isolated themselves ,only escape mechanism is teleport if BC has no COA and perhaps Psy grenades to drain energy-intensive squads before retreating .
. ASM/Raptors still has their CC to save themselves preventing unnecessarily model losses.

Defenseless against SC/Nobz/Genestealers ,Any Ordinary Melee Elitist etc .
They just be a supportive role in t3 then offensive, I believe Retaining their NF in T3 would give em the Durability needed and Staying power in engagements .
They even lose to fully upgraded SS ,what gives .
Maybe give them the same NF from SS to Int in t3 . Just slightly lower 10% hp/dps increase rather then 30% dps/10% hp increase of SS NF ?

I would prefer Nemesis focus be an "Exclusive" upgrade for GKI ,befitting for them to uniquely have it then Purifiers and other Jump squads. Losing GKI can be a tremendous blow in early engagements ,still GK units gives good red/exp to your opponents and their relatively an expensive race afterall .

As Oppose to removing it entirely if you're gonna implement Pskbolt -ammunition for SS to become a fully-fledged range squad(About time ,just replace Psycannons with Pskbolts ). SS with Psy can't even put a dent into Walkers/Predators,that job should be done by VA/GKI/Purgators/Rhino. SS having NF just seems awkward to me ,they won't even last as long as GKI/Purifiers come T3.

GK literally has no "great" range units that Scales well throughout tiers ,not ST/Purgations. Their Unit composition (2 ST/2 SS,etc from T2 onwards) pales in comparison to other races . Battling Chaos/SM with GK Range superiority,their dps output is just Ridiculous and Laughable to me .

[ThongSong]

this did strike me as odd. NF does well in t2 but it's effectiveness imo really tapers off in t3 when all the big scaries come out. right now in a straight up brawl vs asm interceptors just tend to get trounced once a merciless strike hits them

[HandSome SoddiNg]

this did strike me as odd. NF does well in t2 but it's effectiveness imo really tapers off in t3 when all the big scaries come out. right now in a straight up brawl vs asm interceptors just tend to get trounced once a merciless strike hits them

NF would be Outrageously gud in T2 ,so i rather it shifted to T3. not remove it entirely, Yesh ASM/Raptors can trance Interceptors around unless they have MB

[sk4zi]

you should not jump melee suqads...
many other squads loose vs genstealers

[David-CZ]

Defenseless against SC/Nobz/Genestealers . . .

I'm not a GK player but isn't it fine that T1 unit can't compete with T3 stuff? And Genestealers need their upgrade plus synapse to be effective.

[appiah4]

There's NOTHING in the game that beats upgraded Genestealers, why should a GK T1 unit do that? If that's your yardstick then no unit will make your cut. Sorry. They are fine as is, actually their teleport probably needs a longer cooldown but whatever.

EDIT: NOTHING may have been a bit exaggerated, but I wouldn't throw ANY melee unit at them. Ever. They scare the SHIT out of me.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

you should not jump melee suqads...
many other squads loose vs genstealers

Didn't say u should Lol . Stealers will get obliterated by FF from any armies .

Defenseless against SC/Nobz/Genestealers . . .

I'm not a GK player but isn't it fine that T1 unit can't compete with T3 stuff? And Genestealers need their upgrade plus synapse to be effective.

Uh,wouldn't the ASM alry be lv2 or 3 before Stealers receive their claws ,else just buff Battlecry/ Combat stims/Signum + FTE on ASM would completely wreack Stealers and they still have Merciless to even the odds out + their Heroes and entire Squadron

There's NOTHING in the game that beats upgraded Genestealers, why should a GK T1 unit do that? If that's your yardstick then no unit will make your cut. Sorry. They are fine as is, actually their teleport probably needs a longer cooldown but whatever.

EDIT: NOTHING may have been a bit exaggerated, but I wouldn't throw ANY melee unit at them. Ever. They scare the SHIT out of me.

Nothing is an Understatement yo , ,Sluggaz/BL/Seer council/Nobz,etc gives them a run for their money. L'ets not forget you got an Army to back your Jump/Melee squad and Heroes alongside. Sluggaz w UYC/Painboy unstable field injection combo,FS with guide + AOF + mind war on Shees/Seer council, Hammer FC/Signum TM w Shotgun scouts and ASM ,their ability won't save em for long. Three examples listed
. Why fight Stealers 1 to 1 without any Support? they don't reach their fullest Meele skill potential if their isolated from the swarm .

ASM/Raptors still has their CC ability to save their asses before they retreat ,Int just uses teleport as their escape mechanism ,if their outta energy, their screwed. Canticle of Absolution will disable the Genestealers"s ability momentarily ,Purgation suppresses them slowly or use Daemon hammer of BC + 2 Plasma ST/GL or GK dreadnought Melee state ,Put warding staff on Interceptors/Purifiers buffed with MB and Purge from TL or just go for Synaspe link .
Once they trigger adrenaline rush ,play it safety and kite away , don't commit entirely .
Still GK doesn't really have sufficient answers to counter Melee except the options i mentioned unlike SM .

[appiah4]

Why are you assuming you have all that to backup your melee squad and the Genestealers have nothing? Genestealers with even the basic Hive Tyrant melee synapse are scarier than ASM backed up by shooting. They do horrific damage to every armor type; infantry, heavy, superheavy, vehicle, what have you. They are the all around best melee unit in the game IMO.

[Torpid]

Zoanthropes with that basic Hive Tyrant melee synapse are pretty terrifying too.

[Forestradio]

In t2 and t3 your interceptors should worry less about killing enemy melee and more about killing enemy ranged units.

Nemesis Focus was overpowered. That's why it was removed

[Dark Riku]

Give them the same NF from SS to Int in t3. Just slightly lower 10% hp/dps increase rather then 30% dps/10% hp increase of SS NF ,Shift NF of GKI to T3 instead?

This doesn't seem like an unreasonable suggestion to me.

And Genestealers need their upgrade plus synapse to be effective.

They definitely do not need their T3 upgrade to be effective.
Synapse makes them way better but isn't exactly necessary either in all situations.

[Sub_Zero]

Ehm, I think that GK's T3 is already very strong. Cheap terminators and all that stuff. I think there is no need for better interceptors in T3.

[David-CZ]

And Genestealers need their upgrade plus synapse to be effective.

They definitely do not need their T3 upgrade to be effective.
Synapse makes them way better but isn't exactly necessary either in all situations.

I meant in order for Genestealers to be able to compete with Nobs, SC and such.

[Lulgrim]

Isn't the upgrade is just heavy melee, why would they need that...

[Bahamut]

yeah, swapping genestealers claws for heavy melee could sometimes mean a downgrade. depending on the needs of the match

[Broodwich]

Their huge melee skill combined with their special being ability kb means they beat everything under synapse

[David-CZ]

Isn't the upgrade is just heavy melee, why would they need that...

Now that you mention it I'm not sure. I thought it gave them the ability to heal with each hit. But if it's just damage type upgrade then it can be omitted.

[Dark Riku]

Isn't the upgrade is just heavy melee, why would they need that...

Now that you mention it I'm not sure. I thought it gave them the ability to heal with each hit. But if it's just damage type upgrade then it can be omitted.

The upgrade gives them heavy melee.
Their heal ability comes standard on them.

[Warp Dust Addict]

Gene's have 90 MS with Synapse and a built in heal.Only unit that can go toe to toe with them are Nobs and Lighting Claw termies(if you have thunder hammer you are screwed cause they attack waaay too slow) even with lighting claws you will lose at least 1 model

[ThongSong]

In t2 and t3 your interceptors should worry less about killing enemy melee and more about killing enemy ranged units.

Nemesis Focus was overpowered. That's why it was removed

Considering that interceptors are GK's only real way of killing retreating units... I can't really see how it's OP. GK don't have any way of grenade spiking retreating units. purifiers have a great charge but that's about it. The brocap can teleport and maybe smack something with his hammer but he's so. damn. slow.

I mean eldar dire avenger squads get fleet and grenades; I don't even need to explain how good that is at killing retreating squads.

Then you have banshees and their unholy chase ability. and now they can jump over cover...so...

and then there's the autarch, who is one of the fastest units in the game.

Then you also have warpspiders that can teleport in and pew pew that last retreating squad member into bloody giblets.

all of which cost less than a fully upgraded interceptor squad.

[Kvek]

Since when interceptors are the only way of killing shit in retreat ? Purifiers have the best charge range, and ever heard of WATH ?
And if you can't see how jumping on one dev squad and wiping it out in 10 seconds is OP then I don't know where you came from.

Stop comparing Eldar to GK...

ANd anyway, you won't suddenly get to the retreat path with FoF with DAs, unless you made some kind of a flank with them, and nades aren't easy to land :p

And they also get forced off pretty easily, get some melee counters ffs
Yes, she is but again, you're saying that you've won the engagement easily and now you're stomping his army in retreat path, once again get some shit that will counter that autarch, ever heard of psychic lash?

The warpspiders will max do 30damage in retreat, which is a lot especially when you retreat your units very late -,-

And even though these things cost less, they're different and shit.
Btw asms also cost more than these things do, so buff them as well? And orks don't have so much chase potential as well, so buff too ?:p

[ThongSong]

^

it's nice to see you can respond to my post in a polite and mature fashion.

okay, so purifiers, which are one of the most expensive t2 squads in existence. that's 2. compare that to chaos blood letters, khorne marines, raptors, heretics, etc etc etc.

What melee counters do gk really have? grenade launcher storm troopers? I'm really loathe to get these guys half the time because once you get them you pretty much loose all your focus fire ability, and that against a well-microed opponent it can be very difficult to pull this off. purgations? How often do you see purgations and interceptors appear in the same t1 build order? And all you need to make a purgation squad useless at countering melee is to charge it from 2 angles with your hero and a melee squad and you've pretty much nullified them for the entire engagement.

okay, psycic lash, got it. but you're still paying a helluva lot for what is essentially an overglorified flesh hook when personally I'd rather get unending purge to help keep the brocap alive when he's in retreat.

and ork slugga boy chase potential is nothing to be sniffed at either.

[David-CZ]

I don't really understand GK but I thought they lack range DPS output since all their units are basically melee focused. So how is it they have trouble dealing with melee?

I see they don't have a reliable suppression source but I'd expect GK units to do well since they are HI with fair amount of HP and DPS and plenty of global and hero buffs.

[ThongSong]

all things being equal, GK tend to get stomped very hard by any strong melee hero, most noticeably by the ork warboss and tyranid hive tyrant. Their only real solution to this is to get triple storm troopers and kite, pew pew, kite, pew pew, rinse and repeat and pray for success.

also since their squads are low model, high HP and very expensive, even if you do force off enemies in melee brawls chances are you have been bled disproportionately high. I've had a fully upgraded purifier squad lose a model against a fully upgraded slugga squad before. even if they did force off the sluggas and take 3 models off the orks, that one purifier model is worth more than the 3 sluggas combined to replace.

[saltychipmunk]

using purifiers as an example probably isnt a good idea.

they are a t2 unit so they get no levels vs an upgraded slugga which is probably level 2

they are power melee , so their dps is balanced for heavy infantry , sluggas are just infantry.

[Torpid]

So what alternative ought he offer? GK suffer from the same problem of SM in that they have no dedicated melee squads of their own and all of theirs are HI. Furthermore they suffer an additional problem not shared with SM at all and that's a severe lack of methods of control.

This makes fighting melee with GK a very tedious task of kite, shoot, kite, shoot, or blob up the entire army and charge with as many globals and abilities used as possible. This is an inefficient use of units, time and generally leads to a lot of bleed. This is why melee counters GK, especially in T2 when IST focus fire becomes somewhat insignificant.

[Broodwich]

The ss aren't particularly good in melee vs dedicated squads unless early on where their armor allows them to survive until the other melee if forced off. But that quickly goes downhill when everything is a lot more killy, they don't start with much dps and don't gain much either, where other units are getting better damage types and leaders that add lots of bonuses to the group. Hence my suggestion to turn then into purifiers like tacs to sterns. I also like torpid's idea of psybolts

[Forestradio]

Interceptors are the best jump unit in the game even after the removal of their Nemesis Focus.

There are problems with the Grey Knight roster, but Interceptors are not one of them.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

The ss aren't particularly good in melee vs dedicated squads unless early on where their armor allows them to survive until the other melee if forced off. But that quickly goes downhill when everything is a lot more killy, they don't start with much dps and don't gain much either, where other units are getting better damage types and leaders that add lots of bonuses to the group. Hence my suggestion to turn then into purifiers like tacs to sterns. I also like torpid's idea of psybolts

I prefer SS get their new range upgrade as akin to their Lore , too much melee with GK and ST/Purgation nvr scale throughout tiers ,GK range is so pathetic .

2 SS with psycannons vs heavy walkers just laughable ,should just remove the Psycannon and replace it with Pskbolts upgrade and they perform much better . i assume its a crossover with TCSM and Plasma guns or close to either of these..
Leave AV to VA/GKI/Dreadnought/Rhino/Termies . Making SS alike to Purifiers would contradict Purifier's natural purpose and functionality on the battlefield. GKI cannot win fights in Melee engagements without any support from BC or global buffs ,especially 2 Tics with TCSM/KCSM Shenanigans ,etc

[saltychipmunk]

I agree , I would like to see changes with ss getting a better ranged upgrade.

psy-cannons are complete garbage unless there are like 5 of them which is not all that practical.