GK Balance Assessment Thread

[hiveminion]

Obviously this game isn't so simple as you put it. Also I believe a Strike Squad is on par with Warriors in melee.

[Torpid]

Assuming equal skill, it really is that simple. You're not factoring in the KB I guess.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

2 warrior broods is an insta base lock and gg

[ThongSong]

I've kinda stopped playing gk now just because of how bad they are dealing with melee and their one dimensional av options

[Atlas]

Can someone explain to me why double warriors is a baselock against GK?

[ThongSong]

purgations can barley deal with 1 warrior squad. even with their snare/slow, the warriors will still get within leaping range of them and then it's basically a gg for the purgies.

interceptors can take models off warriors, but without their justicar hormos will essential nomm the interceptors and bleed you disproportionately

storm troopers are pretty much your only line of defense. either try to kite and snipe with them or pray their grenade barrage hits the warriors. but if you opt for nades, you pretty much lose all your focus fire ability against the hive tyrant.

[Sub_Zero]

You say it like the Bro Cap has no 40 dps power melee sword with an awesome support ability. And you say it like he has no access to wargears that allow him to be incredibly tanky. He on his own with proper upgrades owns any T1 composition of the tyranids (I exaggerate a bit, don't get mad). Add some disruption with op grenade launchers' barrage and you decimate nids. T1 of the tyranids is pretty weak. Fragile raveners with very low damage output. That is their jump unit. The worst jump unit in the game, that is for sure. Hormagaunts with 55 melee skill that lose their damage outuput very quickly given how fragile each model is and how often they lose models because of that. Termagaunts are good against melee but their damage output is not high, I will dare to say that they lose to any ranged squad. Yes, I see how 2x warriors can bring some troubles to grey knights in T1. But if you equip your hero with the right wargears they will become less of a problem. In my opinion only IG can struggle a bit vs tyranids. Chaos, Space marines, Eldar, Orks easily win vs Tyranids. At least that is what I see when I play against nids with those races.

[Torpid]

Look, I'm not exaggerating, it's the worst MU in the entire game. Your t2 can't do anything due to genestealers + venoms. Everything nid hero is scary in melee so GLs are worthless and WB have the KB which results in an instant retreat and also counters purgation, not to mention their high hp, low models and HI makes them resistant to IST dps. . Factor in how much faster nids are and how much better their eco is and it's just lulz. You're free to attempt the MU though, I'll have a lobby open around ~19:00 GMT, been practicing the RA recently.

IG in my experience always has been and still is the best counter to Nids. I have no idea what you are talking about SubZero. Nid's are very strong in t1, mainly due to speed and the lack of dynapse counters.

Also can we please stop saying ravs are the worst jump squad. They aren't meant to function like asm. They're cheaper, affected by synapse, have a better disruptive effect, are supported by a race with a lot more melee and they cna upgrade to ranged weapons, suffice to say they play a very different role than ASM.

[Forestradio]

You say it like the Bro Cap has no 40 dps power melee sword with an awesome support ability. And you say it like he has no access to wargears that allow him to be incredibly tanky. He on his own with proper upgrades owns any T1 composition of the tyranids (I exaggerate a bit, don't get mad). Add some disruption with op grenade launchers' barrage and you decimate nids. T1 of the tyranids is pretty weak. Fragile raveners with very low damage output. That is their jump unit. The worst jump unit in the game, that is for sure. Hormagaunts with 55 melee skill that lose their damage outuput very quickly given how fragile each model is and how often they lose models because of that. Termagaunts are good against melee but their damage output is not high, I will dare to say that they lose to any ranged squad. Yes, I see how 2x warriors can bring some troubles to grey knights in T1. But if you equip your hero with the right wargears they will become less of a problem. In my opinion only IG can struggle a bit vs tyranids. Chaos, Space marines, Eldar, Orks easily win vs Tyranids. At least that is what I see when I play against nids with those races.

This post made me laugh so hard.

Yeah, upgrade your stormtroopers with grenade launchers and lose all single target dps against the lictor alpha.

Yeah, lictor alpha can't just delete your sergeant squads with flesh hook on the leader.

Termagaunt ranged dps is not insignificant and their crippling poison is a hard counter to the brother captain.

Raveners the worst jump unit in the game, oh please. No other jump unit has access to ranged weapons like they do.

Finally, the Brother Captain's 40 dps power melee sword is laughed at by warriors. And his OMG SO TANKINESS is offset by his tendency to die in retreat to gaunts.

[Atlas]

I'm getting some wildly different answers here :/

[Sub_Zero]

OK, you don't respect me, then take your shit back. Here we go.

I didn't say that grenade launchers were a necessary purchase. It might be an option. You might have 3 squads of them. It is easy given their unfairly cheap req cost.

Termagaunts' dps is not the lowest. However their formation and their model count highly reduces their chances to remain their highest possible dps. Termagaunts are not a hard counter to the Brother Captain. Learn the definitions before using them. The unit "A" can be considered as a hard counter to the unit "B" only when the unit "A" overcomes the unit "B" when both units have their full health. The razorback is a hard counter to termagaunts. The Avatar is a hard counter to hormagaunts.

Raptors DO have ranged weapons. I was talking about melee capabilities of the jump units. Raveners ARE the worst jump unit in terms of health/damage output.

Your last point however is debatable. From my experience fully upgraded Brother Captain decimates needs.

Don't laugh next time at someone's post and the discussion will be held in a friendly tone.

[Torpid]

If somebody thinks IG have it worse vs Nids and GK have it easy vs Nids then they've lost all respectability tbh. I mean, these things are just blatantly obvious, like grass>water>fire>grass in pokemon or Sluggers>ins>outs>sluggers in boxing. It's so blatant that it becomes as objective as science.

[Nurland]

Uhh... Why don't we cool down a bit here. K? Don't want to close the topic or start giving out warnings.

Now these GK vs Nids opinions may be a bit different since Sub_Zero really doesn't play 1v1 very much (at least to my understanding) so he has a different perspective from active 1v1 players (for example Nid map presence is not as hard to deal with in team games imo).

Anyway based on what I have seen and heard, IG is one of the better races against Nids (if not the best). Views from high lvl players ofc are welcome.

And when it comes to hard counters I'd say Heretics are a hard counter to most melee units though they necessarily don't beat all melee squads 1v1. Or a lascannon is a hard counter to a Dread though it will not win against a Dread 1v1. Imo hard counter/counter is something that allows you to (usually cost efficiently) deal with said squad/unit/unit type.

Termagaunts are not a hard counter to the Brother Captain. Learn the definitions before using them. The unit "A" can be considered as a hard counter to the unit "B" only when the unit "A" overcomes the unit "B" when both units have their full health. The razorback is a hard counter to termagaunts. The Avatar is a hard counter to hormagaunts.

By that logic GUO is an Avatar counter but not a counter for Nobz (not 100% sure who wins but I am fairly certain at least fully upgraded Nobz have the upper hand 1v1 there. Espescially if they have lvls.)... Or a Power Fist FC is not a hard counter to a melee Dread as he cannot solo it.

[Sub_Zero]

What about we just refrain from using these stupid terms such as hard counter, soft counter, fluffy counter? Just say that it is a counter and everyone will get you.

And that is not a big deal for me, Torpid, I don't respect you too, you say a lot of things I don't agree with. But when I talk to somebody I try to be polite as much as I can but when my opponent clearly shows his dislike he won't hear kind words in return. And tell me what does this statement mean for you "struggle a bit"? I didn't say that IG vs Nids was a clear win for Nids. Notice that. Nids is the rarest seen race for me. I've had not so much games against nids. And I base my opinion on that. The quality of players might be low. But I don't really see how tyranids are strong in T1. Maybe someday I will meet a player who will change my mind. It hasn't happened yet.

[Torpid]

Terminology is the way it is for a reason. Buying a lascannon to counter a dreadnought as opposed to buying an avatar to counter a dreadnought are clearly two very different things. If by advising somebody and telling them they need to get a hard counter to X they then just tech up and try and get a super unit, clearly the terminology is broken, but at the same time the prowess that these high-tech units wield over their lower-tech counterparts must be respected.

The reason you don't rate the nid t1 is probably because you don't play 1v1 so the fact that they're the fastest army in the game is pretty irrelevant. That's probably their best trait in 1v1, alongside their eco.

[Ace of Swords]

The reason you don't rate the nid t1 is probably because you don't play 1v1 so the fact that they're the fastest army in the game is pretty irrelevant. That's probably their best trait in 1v1, alongside their eco.

I think he just hasn't played anyone good, see faction wars, nids T1 pressure is unstoppable unless the nid player itself makes huge mistakes.

[Dark Riku]

What about we just refrain from using these stupid terms such as hard counter, soft counter,

Those aren't stupid terms -.-

Maybe someday I will meet a player who will change my mind. It hasn't happened yet.

I will happily change your mind about Nids. Nids in T1 are not weak at all.

Can we get back to GK's now? ^^

[Forestradio]

Finally had a game where I felt Purgation did something for me in T1. See attached file.

On a side note, can we just flat out remove the incinerator upgrade on GK terminators and paladins? Atm it is a better heavy flamer on a beastly power melee/heavy melee squad.

I instantly killed every single non-leader model of uncle milty's guardsmen squad with one (they were in heavy cover).

It's so sickeningly broken that I actually felt bad about it

[ThongSong]

the brocap's 40dps power melee sword is not a counter to warriors, or to anything really. that thing takes 2 hits to kill guardsmen. even if he can, in due time, kill a warrior model, there's probably already dozens of hormas around him who have been snacking on the rest of your army while termas cripple the brocap.

and strike squad and interceptors get destroyed hard by hormas unless they can pull specials off. good luck relying on that when warriors are leaping into them and knocking them back,

as much as I'd love to get nade launchers against nids, at best you'll knockback the warriors once... twice... and then what? you have zero focus fire ability and their hero will be busy raping the rest of your army.

and come t2, all the nids need to do is get a melee blob of death moving and that's it. interceptors, even with teleport spam back in the day with CoA, can't deal with a tyranid melee blob. purifiers will bleed you disproportionately.

only solution? t3 and get MOAR terminators, which seems to be GK's only answer to everything. more and more terminators

[Warp Dust Addict]

The main problem with the GK vs Nids in T1 is any fight you "win" will normally cost you more then you gain (having to replace storm's/strikes)while the nid player beats you to T2. Come T2 the Nids have a huge advantage as you need to upgrade Interceptors for them to be any use (IMO as they only disrupt with Justicar) and once the disrupt is over they will be smacked to death meanwhile your strike squad are pretty much useless right now and your BroCap is having to deal with a Nid Commander that was already better then him in T1 and now is getting even stronger.Then comes T3 where the only thing you can do is spam termies and watch them got nomed to death.

IMO main problem with GK is that they are almost a pure melee force but aren't very good at it.

[RagingJenni]

the brocap's 40dps power melee sword is not a counter to warriors, or to anything really. that thing takes 2 hits to kill guardsmen!

Those are Cadians, mind you. "mess with the best" and so on

Also Inquisitorial stormtroopers shame the Schola Progenium

[ThongSong]

IMO main problem with GK is that they are almost a pure melee force but aren't very good at it.

gk melee is only good against things that cant melee back. interceptors are all good and well against sm/chaos until their commander pulls out a power melee sword

[Cheekie Monkie]

the brocap's 40dps power melee sword is not a counter to warriors, or to anything really. that thing takes 2 hits to kill guardsmen!

Those are Cadians, mind you. "mess with the best" and so on

Also Inquisitorial stormtroopers shame the Schola Progenium

And he's a Grey Knight captain, hailing from a chapter which supposedly shames all others!

Well judging from the posts in this thread, at least GK is like how it is in tabletop: IST's into a terminator spam. That was a joke. Feel free to laugh.

I know the thread has delineated to a Nids vs GK bash, but going back to the original point on ranged strike squads, I find it off putting that the sergeant scales well with nemesis focus yet doesn't really add anything with the ranged weapon upgrades (abilities are working at half capacity due to lack of nemesis focus).
Rather than stacking on inferno damage, why can't the justicar just boost the damage of both the psycannon and incinerator, for example?

As a side note, it looks like the SS becomes more of a support unit come T2, rather than a pure combat unit. Can't we make them more supportey instead of just adding more dakka/choppa to them? An example could be that with the psycannon upgrade the snare becomes able to affect vehicles too - adding a layer to GK's simplistic AV options, or give it a suppression effect on top of the snare with the incinerator upgrade.

Note to self: Must test out the BC's blue boom boom ability on nid melee blobs.

[ThongSong]

^ the blue boom boom kills gaunts ... which is ... pretty much all it's good at vs nids. it'll put warriors on their ass but won't be enough to stop them. it could help even the odds in a melee fight though.

[Forestradio]

The Nemesis Vortex is fantastic vs blobs but in a 1v1 the nid player always beats you to t2 because he can just camp your power and bash indefinitely.

Then it's genestealers and gg wp.

I am leaning toward giving strike squad a tracking special attack. Melee units can just run past them towards stormtroopers with impunity.

[Bahamut]

I am leaning toward giving strike squad a tracking special attack. Melee units can just run past them towards stormtroopers with impunity.

No. Freaking. Way

Purgators are already quite good at stopping melee squads

[Sub_Zero]

I haven't tested buffed purifiers but now their AOE ability does no friendly damage. That is a huge buff, isn't it? Now they are even scarier in a melee fight, aren't they? What do you think? Add some disruption from interceptors and you have a perfect pair of melee combat rapists. Not to mention all the buffs and assist from the strike squad. How can they have a hard time beating melee oriented nids I just don't see.

[Forestradio]

I am leaning toward giving strike squad a tracking special attack. Melee units can just run past them towards stormtroopers with impunity.

No. Freaking. Way

Purgators are already quite good at stopping melee squads

Apparently only orks are allowed to have high melee skill and tracking specials

Not vs nids purgation aren't. Oh and every jump/sniper unit in the game lulz at purgation.

I haven't tested buffed purifiers but now their AOE ability does no friendly damage. That is a huge buff, isn't it? Now they are even scarier in a melee fight, aren't they? What do you think? Add some disruption from interceptors and you have a perfect pair of melee combat rapists. Not to mention all the buffs and assist from the strike squad. How can they have a hard time beating melee oriented nids I just don't see.

What do I think? That Purifiers are a good if slightly too expensive squad that won't stand a chance vs genestealers. Stealers have 90 melee skill under melee syanpse. Even with mind blades purifiers only have 80.

Buying Interceptors in T1 vs nids is stupid because they have no disruption until t2 and get easily swarmed/crippled by gaunts and knocked down by warriors.

What are all these "buffs and assists" from the strike squad? I only see a energy restoration. Not helpful for Purifiers at all. Psychic Field is 100 energy so you can't use it more than once per engagement.....

[Sub_Zero]

I always aim for venom brood or warriors. Purifiers do power melee so they will kill a model very quickly. Genestealers will be knocked down and damaged. Warriors will retreat probably and now genestealers have no 90 melee skill. Strike squad can provide crippling poison. So you slow the advance of the genestealers and own the warriors. Strike squad will help to fight in melee. And energy restoration. Not enough help from them?

Cast the purifier's ability on the place when the fight will go on, jump with the interceptors to the genestealers, once they get up you are already working on the warriors with your interceptors and purifiers, cast the strike squad's ability on the genestealers, own the warriors, etc etc It all depends how you micro your stuff. Of course your opponent can cripple your units and use his warriors wisely. There are tons of variations, I can't cover them all. Again it all depends how you micro your stuff. Do you defend or do you attack? It also depends on circumstances.

EDIT: I have just realised how much control tools GK have. Mines, plasma guns, grenade launchers, SS's ability to slow down the movement of the targeted squad, Purgation squad's aoe ability to cripple units and their standard attack that suppresses, Interceptors' abilities to suppress and knocback (grenades, teleportation), Dread's maelstrom and Emperor's fist, Purifiers' aoe abilities, Brother Captain's nemesis vortex, hammer, psychic lash, canticle of absolution. With such a huge variety of tools if they lose melee fights then it is the player's fault. And how much synergies between all this stuff! Oh, damn, this revelation made me want to play grey knights again and be more creative.

[appiah4]

Heavy Flamer Dreadnought vs 'nid melee blobs is a godsend.