Tentative Balance changes to be made

[Caeltos]

Hello everyone, I'd like to speak about things that I'm currently trying to adress in the upcoming balance patch.

Game Length
I spoke about this a while ago, and I'm currently going to be slowly testing how this is played out. I spoke to Lulgrim about it a while ago on it's implementation, and appearantly this can be changed without trying to compromise the older and previous experience of VP-tick bleed. However, there is abit of a catch here of course;

Readjusting the game length by reducing the VP tick will require some re-adjustments towards the late-game stages of the game. For an example of this, I'll try to explain why some changes might be made

ALL Terminator cooldown will be increased
Now, you might ask - why would you nerf Terminators already by reducing the frequency of their potential call-ins. Well, it's pretty simple really. By increasing the game length by an approximately 30% minute longer. (30 minute games will now take 39 minutes) this means the terminator "spam" is more potent at it's current stages, sitting at 300 second cooldown (Unless I changed this, which I might have, luls) so by increasing it by ~2 minutes, the frequency of spam is reduced slightly, but it's still an alteration that ultimately might inconsequenctly is a buff to some degree, as a game is active and you have good unit preservation. It's abit dependant on the players action to keep them alive, but overall you get the point, and I'll elaborate further on terminator changes in general, and it's not specifically Space Marine terminators i'm targetting either;

Terminators will BE MORE durable, but less "killy" to some degree
With some changes in mind, I want to ensure that Terminators don't neccasarily die straight off the bat, this means that in exchange for potential damage, the Terminators get more surviveability. This doesn't neccasarily transition into overall loss of damage however, espicially in a extended confrontation. I'll elaborate in a theorycrafted situation;

- Terminators in existing state - 1 minute confrontation can inflict , inflicts 1 model squad kill but ends up dying for it.
- New change - 2:30 minute confrontation, inflicts 1 squad kill and heavy damage on others, and survives with 1 model remaining.

I know it's simplified and very dumbed down, but the intended change here is that the longer a fight is going on, the more damage Terminators can do due to their new surviveability. This also gives the other player more reactive play and act accordingly. By also doing this, the bleed effect of Terminators will also diminish, which might force my hand to revert the previous Terminator pricing, to ensure they're more aligned with their new cost effiency.

This actually reverts to more of their previous state back they had in vanilla DoW2, where they functioned more of a damage-soaker with alot of overall utility in their backpack. Overall it'll probably functioned better with the Space Marine economy in late-game, as they don't feel so burdened by the loss of a Terminator model dying, and crippling their economy. The impact should be there tho when you lose one, but it shouldn't cripple an future investment so heavily.

There are more plans for Terminators actually scheduled, but overall I feel you should be more alerted on what's being planned. In a short summary, expect more durable and frontline "Tanks" that don't pack as much of a punch as they used to, but more overall flexibility and less of a restrain on your economy.

Super Units & You
I've previously touched on this before with making build time increases & cost adjustments to super units. This is still an ongoing process that I've been fiddling with, and some units have made their corresponding changes already. I still plan on adressing pretty much just about any super unit there is in the game, and try to ensure their utility and accessibility in all game-modes, specifically, let's say - Baneblade in 1v1s is less likely, but very probable in 2v2s and 3v3s.

So what do we need to do to make let's say a Baneblade more attractive to purchase in 1v1? Well, overall the biggest hinder is actually the overall cost-dumps an IG must make in their T2 to ensure they stay in the game, or the fact they want to win. T3 is hardly ever gotten, and if it does, it has a risk factor to it, since less dumps in T2 as IG, means less chance of winning.

- But of course, by increasing the game length by 30% gives the IG more room to play around, certainly improves the odd of achieving late-game units more probable however, so it's one of those things to consider as well. It'll require abit of testing to see how the extended game duration actually effects Imperial Guard. Remember the Manticore power cost? Well, that was one step towards achieveing better chances of fielding late-game units. Was it enough? No, and not to my suprirse either. Since alot boils down to overall cost/bleed of guardsmen and how stalwardly they will hold the frontline. There was an unintended change towards HWT as well, which I'm looking at to get fixed as well (Higher pop then intended). Just a misc. sidenote

Grey Knight Changes
I know that Strike Squad doesnt' have the most impressive scaling performance, they're more a supportive-core unit if anything, and the support factor is sort of "okay" and very micro-dependant. I'd like to keep it that way tho, and I'm looking at ultimately removing Nemesis Focus since it's not serving it's purpose anymore, since I'd prefer if the frontline melee units were infact the Purifiers and your Commander. As well, you've got the Terminators. There were abit of overlapping units, and Strike Squad should functioned more as a "Capable melee units", but more specialized in ranged warfare with their Storm Bolters. So in exchange of removing Nemesis Focus, they will get Psybolts Ammunition that increase their range damage.

More details to come

[MaxPower]

I'll prolly sound like a naysayer but I don't like the idea of games getting longer, first of all because a. even minor games would prolly drag on and on forever (every 20 min game would be a 28 or 27 game then) b. a game that is currently 30 mins is stressful enough, don't get me started about games that lasted 40 mins now, they would become 52 mins time sinks.

And the fact that terminators should get another "adjustment" is something I don't like at all. You said yourself that terminators should be more like in vanilla DoW 2. They used to be shit in DoW 2 until Chaos Rising came along (im referring to the patch that made them acutally not op anymore after the initial Chaos Rising release).

Also the fact that you won't be able to spam them as good is a joke if lets say other t3 melee units like nobz or Grey Knight Terminators are still spamable (because u can build them which means they don't have a cool down to begin with).

Atleast make it another Game Mode like "enhanced VPC" or something, meaning that u can decide between the normal game made everyone got used to over the course of some years or the new "enhanced" game mode.

And yes I know its prolly way to early to judge the changes right now, but I don't get a good feeling from this at all. Especially considering the fact that this mod, even though more balanced then Retribution, is far from being balanced.

Just my 2 cents.

[Magus Magi]

I know I'm not the guy whose input you're probably looking for (I see Max Power just posted above me, and his opinion is definitely more credible than mine), but I think everything looks really good. I like the idea of longer games for one. I'm also intrigued by tankier termies on a longer cooldown. The implementation is going to be interesting.

At the risk of being a pest, is there anything else your planning on/is on your radar? I'm always interested to know what direction your planning to take the mod in. I'll bet I'm not the only one.

[Caeltos]

And the fact that terminators should get another "adjustment" is something I don't like at all. You said yourself that terminators should be more like in vanilla DoW 2. They used to be shit in DoW 2 until Chaos Rising came along (im referring to the patch that made them acutally not op anymore after the initial Chaos Rising release)

Quite the contrary, and trust me. I know what I'm talking about on this, since this was during the most competetive scene during DoW2, when EMS and all misc. tournaments and alot of good players were around. I mained Space Marines // Eldar, and Terminators were really good at this point.

The Cyclone Missile Launcher dealt incredible large amount of damage, and as did the Assault Cannon. They were also considerably less pricey. There was more or less a reason why they got so absurdly changed during Chaos Rising with alot of the changes that made it into the game that changed up the whole meta.

Terminators were good, and Assault Terminators used to have a stun effect chance on vehicles, as did the Thunderhmammer on the Force Commander.

During these times, vehicles in late game was also a beast, and we had Nascar Pred (As they were referred to) and no argue the best balance was during this time. I think it's about time one sought to bring inspiration and ideas from that time on to implement into the gameplay we have today.

Everything after Chaos Rising and how Terminators handled have always been clunky and messy in how their performance is on the long-due process of a game. You're always encouraged to field Terminators if you can afford them, since they're so versatile, and not because of their strategical value and asset to your army composition. This is what they did way better during vanilla, they were incredibly strong within an army composition that blended in together, but spamming them is not really something encourgeable. Alot of that had to with their utility and sustain-capabilities. / During this time, they used to level up, but were not quite as potent in direct-means of damage, but they used to escalate in performance in terms of damage as the game progressed on. However, as with all things that level, they might not live to see the day of level 4. But level 4 Terminators were pretty frequent and abit annoying to face. There is a logical decision behind it being removed.

Also the fact that you won't be able to spam them as good is a joke if lets say other t3 melee units like nobz or Grey Knight Terminators are still spamable (because u can build them which means they don't have a cool down to begin with).

As I said, Space Marine Terminators are not an exclusive to be changed. This goes for Grey Knights as well. Nobs on the other hand is a late-game unit as well, but given with how things are going to pan out, there are some specific-late game units that are surely going to be changed to adapt to the new formula.

Atleast make it another Game Mode like "enhanced VPC" or something, meaning that u can decide between the normal game made everyone got used to over the course of some years or the new "enhanced" game mode.

As I said in the OP as well, there's actually a possibility to ensure the old way still stays the same. Appearantly from what Lulgrim told me, it's map dependant, so we can make it seperate from the old VP tick. You just pick the map that allows faster VP ticks, or the slower. Player decision.

However, it's important to understand the the core & fundemental balance of the game is heavily snowbally and can really be over within the T1 game, and if you're under alot of stress from heavy agression that cannot be negated by an army composition, and is simply just due to matchup favors X or Y in a specific map. By reducing the VP tick, you can give the other player more reactive time to play out the game and see it out abit more before caving in.

It's important to note, I'm not looking at changing the overall fundemental balance concept of people not being punished enough for suffering quantities of losses in the early-game and his whole gen farm, and still make an ez-comeback come T2, and honestly, I don't see it swinging back into his favor anyway without his opponent making a clusterfuck of a fail.

Let's picture this scenario;
- Player X loses his first scout
- Player Y decides to genbash and takes out 3x gens
- Player Y has captured all 3 VP's and it's going down fast
- Player X is now under extreme constant pressure due to lower amy size, and no tech potential
- Player Y will now outtech the opponent
- Player X is still in the game but surrenders to tech disadvantage

The core & fundemental pressure and denial of power will still have a major influence on the game. However, in closer games - the games are more likely to still continue on and give a potential more counterplay, and this should be infact encouraged to promote, rather than have it be dismissed as something negatively influencing what is already in the game.

The counterplay factor is important to note, is NOT one-sided. If player X makes a comeback, the other player is given fairly equal share to make a return as well into the game. This is important to note also how good each faction is during each stages fo the game, since the longer the game goes on, the more important mid-late game becomes. This is why certain faction that has the most powerful late-game stages might require some overall changes.

[Lulgrim]

I'll prolly sound like a naysayer but I don't like the idea of games getting longer

This seems a 1v1 concern as game length has been reported often unsatisfying on that front. The average competitive 1v1 is about 15.30 and the longest ever SUPER EPIC has been 35 minutes. A 30% increase seems reasonable there.

For team games I personally think the game length is fine. Even when I played a lot I would find 35+ games a bit draining. If someone told me it'll be another 10-15 minutes I'd probably concede or go AFK.

[MaxPower]

So, this change to the vp bleed will be map specific? Hhow would that work, just curious and would it be exclusive to 1on1s or 2on2s (since Lulgrim said that they seem to be rather short compared to the average 3on3 which might last about 26 - 27 mins) or would the bleed change apply to 3on3s as well?

Keep in mind that my concerns are all about team games. Due to the fact that I suck at 1on1s and don't like the focus on capping stuff. ^^

[Caeltos]

From my understanding, it would be tied to maps.

For an example, we could have the following;
- 2P Green Tooth Gorge (Old VP)
- 2P Green Tooth Gorge (New VP)

Meaning we can exclude all team game maps from the selection.

[Cyris]

I will chime in on the "I like the game length just fine, thanks" side. In one corner, we have hour long CoH matches, which I hated. In the other corner, we have DoW with matches going 15-30, which I love. This length just fits into my life better.

That said, in context to the game length extensions, the changes you are discussing make a lot of sense. And strikes do indeed feel stinky past T1, so bravo on that too.

[Black Relic]

Psy-Bolt ammunition. Will it be an ability like Kraken Bolts? Or a permanent weapon change/upgrade like Torpid suggested in his thread?

[Broodwich]

Yeah, making terminator cooldown higher while not making all the stuff that counters them harder to get doesn't make any sense.

I also like the fact that the vp will only change per map, as 3v3s are long enough

[Venjitron]

termiess will be tankier what about the units that are going to trying to take down termies with apoth and raider support...space marines are already armoured and face little scale of unit loss and retribution for thier mainly ranged stance warfare... eg lightning claw termies being tougher like they arent already a superunit they counter heroes, melee, set up's, and with units like tyrant guard and warriors getting ripped apart seer council, nobs you name it they will batter them even the chaos termies...avatar should have a faster melee attack cos tbh it would cut terminator squads to ribbons in seconds...the mainline is make sure it doesn't become GK SM fanboy mod...i know with a basic unit composition of techmarine 2 tacts 1 asm im fine t1 then its ignore t2 unless they rush a vehicle then add melta gun bombs rocketsx2 t3 then my options move straight to vanguardasm raider then either ven dread or termies...i suppose you know all this tho and are making sure units perform to intended specification ability and relentless assault pressures...also im sure you have seen games where in 1 on 1 as soon as termies land its conceed...dont make them unkillable please i know enough players that struggle enough with getting thier head round taking them out decisively.

[Caeltos]

Yeah, making terminator cooldown higher while not making all the stuff that counters them harder to get doesn't make any sense.

That's not the case......

[Torpid]

Yeah, I definitely agree with the consensus that the VP changes wouldn't really be necessary for team games, especially 3v3. Whenever I play a 3v3 about 60% of the time I get mega bored when it gets to that point where everybody camps the contested VP and spams artillery and such and the macro component of the game completely dies. Besides the average 20-30minute games are long enough really for 3v3. However, given that an intense 1v1 happens I really would want it to go on longer than it does most of the time. I've had loads of good 1v1s, where good is defined as fast paced, close and not in anybodies particular favour at any one point before the concede. The concede comes about because one engagement in this game can doom you. Kind of annoying, a bit too unforgiving I think and I hope this will help change that somehow.

[Broodwich]

Yeah, making terminator cooldown higher while not making all the stuff that counters them harder to get doesn't make any sense.

That's not the case......

Well other than hinting at nobz you haven't mentioned anything. In general terms aren't countered by one unit, but by an ability and then some unit, like nobz and vomit. Not necessarily super units either like reapers with wse snare or fs time field/doom/guide etc.

[Caeltos]

Yeah, making terminator cooldown higher while not making all the stuff that counters them harder to get doesn't make any sense.

That's not the case......

Well other than hinting at nobz you haven't mentioned anything. In general terms aren't countered by one unit, but by an ability and then some unit, like nobz and vomit. Not necessarily super units either like reapers with wse snare or fs time field/doom/guide etc.

Hench why I have mentioned several times that their surviveability is improved, meaning they're less likely to die. Which means that counters to them becomes weakened inconsequently.

[Helios]

Game length is fine. There is no real economy in this game to warrant a long game unlike more conventional RTS's where you actually build bases and have more indepth economies to develop or harrass. And even those have been streamlined a bit. I've played some pretty epic Age of Empires matches both on Random map and Death Match that went on for over an hour, but I don't think that can apply to this game.

[Batpimp]

helios you don't even play 1v1. so what do you care if its changed or not?

brood. Reading comprehension please

[Atlas]

I'm pretty happy with these changes with some questions/reservations. You mentioned that ALL terminators across the board will have their cooldowns increased, but how does this apply to GK Terminators which are built and not called in? I'm currently making the assumpton that you refer to build time for them.

But trading some offense for defense is cool for me. I always imagined them being more of a tank and less of a spank. 100(approx?) piercing damage was hard to really wipe units that were faster then you and could retreat anyway and I found more use in the special equipment like the Cyclone Launcher.

@Game Length

I somewhat agree that some 3v3 matchs could be toned down a bit. Maybe turning it form a 15% lag for multiple VP advantage to 10%. Just a thought with no math behind it.

[David-CZ]

Since it would be a new game mode completely separate from the current game I don't see why would anyone disagree about its balance and such before it's even in the game. I say let's do it and then we can talk about balance issues once there actually are any.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

In which state are going to evolve Chaos Terminators then if this (o similar) changes are going to be implemented in the future? Because Chaos Terminators are a more "glass cannon" Terminator variant because they are more offensive focused thanks to their Demoralize effect.

[Ace of Swords]

Since it would be a new game mode completely separate from the current game I don't see why would anyone disagree about its balance and such before it's even in the game. I say let's do it and then we can talk about balance issues once there actually are any.

Because the balance is going to be implemented for every mode.

[Myrdal]

I don't think there's any technical limitations keeping us from changing stuff on the fly depending on mode. Is it from a maintainability perspective we're keeping balance changes global?

[Tex]

I always support you Caeltos, but I can only hope that you keep this as a separate mode. I for one think that a 15 minute game of 1v1 is perfectly fine. I like to be rewarded for putting an insane amount of risk/aggression out there so that I can make those VPs tick quickly.

[crazyman64335]

count me as one who doesn't like the VP change either. If anything i'd like to see the vp's be adjusted to be a bit faster than....normal. I never understood why a triple cap ticks the vp's down 3-2-3-2....... but a double cap is a constant 2-2-2-2......

[MaxPower]

Another thing that I'm worried about is the fact the the balance will either be balanced around the new "enhanced" mode or the current one, so either the enhanced made will be the one every mode is balanced around or the current one. Which makes the one or the other unplayable or unbalanced to begin with I guess.

And to be honest I'd rather have the game balanced around the tried-and-true vp game mode we played over the course of DoW 2s life time. Rather then balance everything around the new mode and force it on the players.

Could you clarify on that @ Caeltos?

[Lulgrim]

I don't think there's any technical limitations keeping us from changing stuff on the fly depending on mode. Is it from a maintainability perspective we're keeping balance changes global?

Well all PvP modes belong to the skirmish/pvp system and use the same blueprints, so as far as I can see it would require 1) maintaining 2+ balance states which means a zogton more work and 2) some sort of GK-like gimmicks to swap the blueprints, don't know how exactly... I don't see it as viable.

[KanKrusha]

An ability that reduces incoming damage? That ability would need a requirement like a player upgrade that is granted by the map?

[appiah4]

I think game lengths were quite fine. Sometimes the game ends before one side even hits T3, but that's fine. If it went on any longer it would turn into a game of SU vs SU (I know for sure that I'd probably let half my T1/T2 units die on purpose so I can span Terminators and Predators as SM). The length is fine, please don't fuck with it.

[David-CZ]

Well all PvP modes belong to the skirmish/pvp system and use the same blueprints, so as far as I can see it would require 1) maintaining 2+ balance states which means a zogton more work and 2) some sort of GK-like gimmicks to swap the blueprints, don't know how exactly... I don't see it as viable.

I didn't realize it would bring this much trouble. In which case I think the current game length would be preferable.

[hastaga]

Game Length

Welcome that the change is only limited to 1v1. 2v2 and 3v3 game time are long enough.

ALL Terminator cooldown will be increased

" By increasing the game length by an approximately 30% minute longer. (30 minute games will now take 39 minutes) this means the terminator "spam" is more potent at it's current stages...."

As you mentioned that the game length change should only affect 1v1. I wonder if increasing their cooldown will affect 2v2 3v3 as well.

On this subject I hold an opposite opinion. I think termie CD should be reduced/removed instead.


Points being:

- As super units, termies aren't exceptional (as in OP or will cause big problem if built 2). Other super units don't have the same CD penalty so I don't see why is it there for termie as super units.

- Units have different strategic values than globals. Usually globals are used for the instantaneous/spontaneous moments. Termies are long lasting units however, just like other units. CD as a balancing mechanics does not make sense on them, as units are always balanced by only cost and upkeep and are built when required. There are times for SM players that "Terminators are the only right answer" (particularly in team games). I do not see much sense in blocking off the unit's option from players when they are required and the resources available.

- The only message I get when seeing CD is included as cost in building termie is that "Players are only rewarded to have a 2nd squad of termie if they kept the previous one alive long enough". Which tbh, doesn't make any sense to me.

Only attribute that makes termies special compare to other super units is probably the 'field deploy' option. In that case, I suggest adding an option to allow termies be built from base. Adjusting the cost of building a termie squad should fix the 'deploying too rapidly' problem, if there is ever one. CD should only be used to limit the frequency of this 'field deploy' function but not the use of the unit itself. (<- coz that's what req and power do).


*edit for spelling, grammar and style alike