Questions about Tyranids and How To Control 'Em T3 As SM

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Not a complaint about balance as I'm not going to try and understand a faction I barely play - but I'm curious how to hold back the tide in T3 as say, SM.

Just played a game and it was pretty evenly matched, and was doing considerably well against him (pushed his gens once or twice, won battles consistently) ... until T3 where I noticed a really big snowball effect once the tryanid player had his genestealers backed up by a swarm lord. The heavy melee composition was initially thought to have been countered by setup teams, but the ability to supercede this with a monstrous creature that provided a speed boost (and reinforcement) seemed to have made it not that viable.

It may seem that focus should have been placed on say the genestealers for example, which tore up the front lines as soon as they ran in with their swarmlord, but considering the speed and their ability to regain health once up close, it seemed very hard to counter.

As SM players, what suggestions do you have against T3 tyranid players that go especially heavy in melee composition? I don't play SM all that much so I'm curious.

EDIT:

Should be noted that I was APO as well, and couldn't have gotten say a thunderhammer as Force Commander, which I believe would have been good for that disruption considering the emphasis on close combat from the opposing team.

EDIT 2:
Made a mistake, this should be in General Discussion - I've PM'd for it to be moved!

[Sub_Zero]

Always get devastators with the lascannon against nids in T3. Because these noobs will spam big creatures. Dreadnought in its default form would have helped you I think. So to fight his melee horde you need dreads and to fight his big creatures you need lascannons (the worst damage output among simillar setup teams which sucks but they get the job done). Zoans will try to kill your devs and venom brood will try to kill your dreads. Assault marines are your friends. Field another scout squad for repair support and equip them with shotguns. But if you were T3 in that game then you should have fielded a predator tank (with lascannon upgrade). It is an ultimate counter to vehicles. But pray the god that your tank will choose the right target when you move it.
Need more details. What was your army composition?

[Bahamut]

LRR or LRC works awesome against nids. and the maxim that nobody ever remembers when they complain about nids: Focus. Fire. Warriors. Synapse backslashes don't only affect gaunts, they also remove 10% hp from TGs and Fexes, that means that wiping the warrior squad that's right beside a carnifex will take 30% hp away from said carnifex. And that doesnt require AV weapons

Supression also never scales down against nids. Tyranids rely on gaunts and genestealers to do damage, and none of the have anything special to naturally counter supression. The swarmlord can be controlled as any other melee walker, where the little creatures will eat supression, that's why a LRR is so good against nids, can't rly approach it with gaunts or genestealers, and nid AV rely on synapse creatures that are easy to take down with some focus fire. I think it was only 3 sniper shots needed to take down a thrope with shield up

Also, nids do fail hard against IG because all IG needs is a couple of bunkers with HWT in them and a leman russ to completely shot down any gaunt based nid swarm

[appiah4]

I feel dissatisfied with the advice so far.

I think the setup teams idea is especially bad. Against a swarmlord and genestealers? I really wouldn't advise..

Apo seems really ill equipped against Nidzilla+Genestealers, but I'd wager what you needed wasi strangely enough, a Lascannon Predator to kite the Swarmlord and a Whirlwind for constant disruption. Micro the two while letting your Shooty Infantry keep bleeding him. Get a LRC as soon as you can too, because it will do a wonder on those Tyranid infantry. Yes, the Tyranids can reinforce, but he can only do that as long as he has resources to do that.

[Ace of Swords]

spam predators and pray the nid isn't smart enough to get venom cannons, anything else fails.

[Lulgrim]

Always get devastators with the lascannon against nids in T3.

How does that work vs. a Ripper-spawning Fex or two? I thought TBs have been forcing tanks since forever.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Need more details. What was your army composition?

Comp was:
Apo, Scouts, Marines with Sergeant, 2 Preds and I believe Devs (though I might have lost them earlier in T3).
EDIT: No, the devs did die - it was a plasma cannon that I had out. My bad.

LRR or LRC works awesome against nids. and the maxim that nobody ever remembers when they complain about nids: Focus. Fire. Warriors. Synapse backslashes don't only affect gaunts, they also remove 10% hp from TGs and Fexes, that means that wiping the warrior squad that's right beside a carnifex will take 30% hp away from said carnifex. And that doesnt require AV weapons

Supression also never scales down against nids. Tyranids rely on gaunts and genestealers to do damage, and none of the have anything special to naturally counter supression. The swarmlord can be controlled as any other melee walker, where the little creatures will eat supression, that's why a LRR is so good against nids, can't rly approach it with gaunts or genestealers, and nid AV rely on synapse creatures that are easy to take down with some focus fire. I think it was only 3 sniper shots needed to take down a thrope with shield up

Also, nids do fail hard against IG because all IG needs is a couple of bunkers with HWT in them and a leman russ to completely shot down any gaunt based nid swarm

Don't think I ever saw the Warriors until AFTER the front line was up and personal with the marines - they usually piled in afterwards, letting the rest of the stuff soak up the damage.

And yup, don't have really probs againt Nids as IG (or not as much as I do with SM at least); especially because I roll Inquis which really punishes a melee advance.

spam predators and pray the nid isn't smart enough to get venom cannons, anything else fails.

I did, and he was :p!
Though oddly enough, he also got a cannon on his Hive Tyrant as well, which was a real curve ball since I don't think I've seen that used against me to this day - first time hah!

[Sub_Zero]

Lulgrim, his hero was the Apo. And the Apo has grenades that do nasty things to high model count squads. So he might have used purification vials to counter rippers.

[Warp Dust Addict]

Wait setup teams work against nids? I must be doing something wrong cause mine either get swarmed or charged or jumped by dat T3 Lic
Edit:Also with spores/rippers setup teams are worthless as are most ranged teams as rippers will tie them up while getting reinforced from..the swarmlord?I think its the swarmlord that can spawn/reinforce rippers

[Dark Riku]

A TB carnifex can spawn rippers.
Swarmlord can't spawn rippers. He provides a reinforce point though.

[Warp Dust Addict]

A TB carnifex can spawn rippers.
Swarmlord can't spawn rippers. He provides a reinforce point though.

Ah that's what I thought.Btw Riku what do you find is best for countering Nids as Apo

[Ace of Swords]

Nids have too much stuff between heroes,warriors,hormas or pretty much any of their hybrid ranged/melee units or melee units or rippers spawned from towers/TB carnie to make setup teams or any kind work past T1, in theory a lascannon is good vs the SL, praticly it's not, with the huge speed buff it gives and the reinforce point with endless swarm will get your setup team swarmed by an unstoppable force.

[Warp Dust Addict]

Nids have too much stuff between heroes,warriors,hormas or pretty much any of their hybrid ranged/melee units or melee units or rippers spawned from towers/TB carnie to make setup teams or any kind work past T1, in theory a lascannon is good vs the SL, praticly it's not, with the huge speed buff it gives and the reinforce point with endless swarm will get your setup team swarmed by an unstoppable force.

Not to mention even if you get LasPred they can take it down/force it off so easy by just charging at it
Or just snipe it down with Carni

[ThongSong]

personally I'd get double devs with libby VoT support. and a vendread or something beefy to soak up the hits.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

The most effective heroes would be FC/TM ,great utilities to take down Fexes and other Nid monstrosities ,Predator would be a questionable choice should Nidz lack sufficient AV of any sorts. Though i seem to see lack of Snaring supression-AV when Nidz has Thornback Fexes/SL to lead their lines ,the only possible solution to halt the beasts in their tracks follow-ups with Melta-bombs/Assault terminators and W/e AV Shenanigans u can throw at it . i think only Apothecary purification vials threaten nidz in t1-t2, not t3 . Whirlwind is Never a great vehicle vs Nidz generally speaking for me .

LRR a decent choice vs Nidz ,its a Huge gamble vs a Range Nid blob with Ravenar damage aura and HT Crushing claws stalking around,though SM need to eliminate the most Prominent threat that posses to the LRR. A Battalion of Marines wouldn't put a dent on a Swarm of Nidz with SL reinforce rate, However . Hammer with FC or his Terminator armor with LC are good CC decisions to control an Enormous swarm once their leaping towards your Army. TM signum + Plasma gun/Melta-gun with EMP nade/Refractor shield can pay off drastically ,Barely seen DooM nowadays. Not having ASM/Vanguards/Dreadnoughts in t3 can be problematic when Genestealers stalks around ,depends on Nid Army composition ,their either Range or meele synaspe . You should have the right units to counteract the Nid Swarm ,else you're literally screwed


Venerable dreadnought/Terminators/Vanguards/Predators/Suppression-snaring teams,etc are good vs Nidz in t3. Though FC the only SM hero that can fend off the Nid army with his Hammer or terminator armor for Momentarily

[ThongSong]

building on what Handsome said, the techmarine's plasma gun is actually awesome against nids. just mark target and snipe those warriors to death and you'll be causing all sorts of hurt for the nids.

Generally I think shotgun scouts and devastators are the flavor of the day. a single tac squad is always useful for that baseline support, but double scouts and double devs provide a lot of blob and melee counters. even if your devs do get suppressed, keep the scouts on standby to counter intiate the raveneors with their shotguns.

and with double devs with veng rounds with tech marine support, it takes a lot of effort for a nid player to muscle their way through all that dakka. come t3, the tech marine has orbs and you could always keep 1 dev without veng rounds for a lascannon to help out against monstrous creatures. by then you should be able to get a vendread to go toe to toe with the big scaries as well.

with the apo, I'd go with a libby for VoT support on plasma cannon devs with combat stims and bomb the ever loving shit out of the tyranids.

[Rataxas]

Always get devastators with the lascannon against nids in T3. Because these noobs will spam big creatures. Dreadnought in its default form would have helped you I think. So to fight his melee horde you need dreads and to fight his big creatures you need lascannons (the worst damage output among simillar setup teams which sucks but they get the job done). Zoans will try to kill your devs and venom brood will try to kill your dreads. Assault marines are your friends. Field another scout squad for repair support and equip them with shotguns. But if you were T3 in that game then you should have fielded a predator tank (with lascannon upgrade). It is an ultimate counter to vehicles. But pray the god that your tank will choose the right target when you move it.
Need more details. What was your army composition?

Craps... it may work for MEGA HYPER LOW LEVEL PLAYER.
Every single hero from nids can easly counter 1 suppersion team , fors the second one you got spore mines , bs warriors , ra or you can easly flank it from back.

Whirlwind is Never a great vehicle vs Nidz generally speaking for me .

the best what you can get in T2 combained with devs.

[Sub_Zero]

So you assume that a SM player is a big noob? You say it like you can't counter raveners with additional devastators etc I don't even feel like I need to talk about counters to counters...

[ThongSong]

given that asms probably wouldn't be choice, seeing as how everything in the nid arsenal is capable of noming them into a pulp, if you can't beat them in melee I'd just attempt to overwhelm them with sheer amounts of dakka and firepower

[appiah4]

That solution requires very good (if possible splash) damage to all types because a good Nid blob consists of all kinds of (infantry, heavy infantry, heavy infantry, vehicle) armor types and A LOT OF models. Compare with any other race; CSM have Autocannons in the form of Terminators/Havocs, Tzeentch CSM, Empyrial, and actually decent melee to counter it with Bloodletters, Touch of Nurgle/Flames/Bloodlust Heretics/KSM, the IG have the Baneblade and Rocket Run to help which by themselves alone can counter a whole Nid army, the Eldar have things like Wraithguard/Fire Prism/D-Cannons/Eldritch that do horrible damage to all types, the Orks have Nobz w/ Frenzy, Battlewagon, Flashtiz and ROKS to deal with this. The GK can spam Paladins to counter (granted they are also weak against the Nid swarm IMO).

That kind of Dakka does not exist in the SM roster. Most SM shooting is specialized against one armor type and burst. SM nuke is a joke. It's a fucking terrible matchup, almost no contest.

SM vs Nids is a fucked from the start matchup. You either have to make SURE you win every engagement in T1 and burn down every power farm to deny T3, or hit Concede the moment the Nifzillas hit the field.

[Torpid]

SM vs Nids definitely favours Nids, but I don't think it's as bad as some other MUs like GK vs Nids, KN vs IG, nids vs eldar, Inq vs HT.

I would say that the main issue here is that nids are really fast so they tend to have great map control while simultaneously having a much stronger eco than you. For that reason in a 1v1 (let's not discuss 3v3 here, it's a bit too complicated and SM t3 is more viable there) I go into the game with the intention of not going T3. If the Nid is decent I shouldn't be able to tech with him, however if I over-invest in my t1/t2 I will bleed him ceaselessly and end up with superior map control all the time until his fexes come out, usually just before or just after that point the game ends in my favour due to VP drain. So My advice would be don't try to control the nid t3, win before then

Right, so how do you win before then? Heavy T1s and T2s as I already said. I actually find the Librarian massively useful in this matchup. Veil of time essentially counters the entire T2 nid roster. VoT HB devs counter zoans because they can avoid their shots and counter-suppress them. The counter-suppression means the zoan must retreat because of either your ASM or your snipers (one of which you take IMO, just because zoans are mega mega strong). If shit gets rough while going for that counter-suppression you can always gate-of-infinity your devs back to safety, the same applies to your ASM when forcing off that zoan. Of course VoT devs also shutdown venom brood based ranged blobs and they halt genestealers in their tracks too. You can also upgrade the lascannon to promptly deal with tyrant guards (they just can't keep up with the speed of VoT devs). And don't forget gate of infinity means you teleport that lascannon all over the place (very useful for killing fexes with their increased health pools).

My specific build order now depends on my hero. I play it the same with TM and FC except sometimes I may buy a turret with the TM since nids really aren't great at dealing with them, but it depends on the map and the scenario I'm in (fo course be wary about using turrets vs the RA as tunnels make it quite easy to flank them). Typically as the FC/TM I will go:

(starting scout) + tac + scout + node + asm + gen + iron halo + gen*2 + devs + node + sniper*2 -> T2 -> Libby, on which I buy VoT ASAP, ASM sarge, thunderhammer+artificer/plasma gun+signum. If they get a tyrant guard I will purchase a second dev and give it a lascannon, while giving vengeance rounds to the first, if they get something else I will simply give VR to my first devs, either way after that I will go for a dreadnought. TG/fex always forces a second dev for VoT lascannon shenanigans. Melta dreadnoughts are quite effective as the FC becuase it let's you snipe synapse better and chase down TGs/fexes, yet you don't need to worry about the nid melee since you haev the TH FC, that's why as the TM I don't go for the melta dread and just keep it melee. A melta dread+VoT las-devs+melta bomb is very difficult for a carnifex to overcome, especially when you consider how fast their army is crippled due to synaptic backlash - 2 sniper shots, plasma tac burst fire with kraken + smite complimented by heavy bolter devs and libby to counter-initiate gaunts for constant inspiration procs. Yeah, they aren't pushing through this, especially if they wasted tmie and money teching to T3 when TG+zoans+genes would probably be much more cost effective. The TM arguably has it easier, all the previously mentioned synapse popping things + the TM plasma gun, the trade off is that he can't get the melta dread as he needs the melee control, but you will be insta-forcing off warriors/venoms, it's very strong and the thing is that veil of time means they can't lead with their fex/tg as a melta + las is gonna doom it for the dreadnought to devour and then the double devs can't be tied up due to VoT and either the emperor's fist or battlecry TH FC.

Apo doesn't have it harder really, he just has to play it different. Apo wants to go with his classic strategy of spamming knockback over and over, never bleeding but always bleeding his foe. I basically do the same build except instead of snipers I get sarge+shotgun scouts since the apo struggles at controlling the nid blob AND he can't snipe synapse creatures, so you need a different approach. I like melee builds here, except if my foe heavily invests in the lictor in which case MCB is great for the KB. The power axe does serious work in T2, the special on it is really strong and it synergises with purity rites/vials (I get rites on bigger maps, vials on smaller or building heavy maps) and armour of purity. The energy drain screws over TGs as well. Classic apo ftw.

Overall then IMO don't even try to out-eco the nid. Heavy T1/2 are the way to go and don't be afraid to use the librarian, this is probably his strongest MU.