Tentative Balance changes to be made

[David-CZ]

Remember that SM and Chaos Terminators cost red and having them built in HQ would make them spammable like it is with GK variants. Now since GK don't have any other unit to build in T3 they don't have much of a choice. But I don't like the idea of this happening with SM and Chaos as well because I don't think it's fine with GK in the first place.

As appiah4 mentioned come T3 people tend to let their T1 and T2 stuff die and the game turns into SU vs SU. Having Terminators come out of HQ would only support this.

[hastaga]

Remember that SM and Chaos Terminators cost red and having them built in HQ would make them spammable like it is with GK variants. Now since GK don't have any other unit to build in T3 they don't have much of a choice. But I don't like the idea of this happening with SM and Chaos as well because I don't think it's fine with GK in the first place.

As appiah4 mentioned come T3 people tend to let their T1 and T2 stuff die and the game turns into SU vs SU. Having Terminators come out of HQ would only support this.

This 'spam' is at most 2 squads. 1 thing

and the current late game meta is always t3 SU + t3 vehicles and SU + t1.5/2 AV units or some other special ty units anyway. So i am not seeing any difference. The only unit that termies can possibly replace from CSM/SM perspective are tac marines. Plasma tac and TCSM are meant for early to mid game mostly.

[Torpid]

Plasma tacs and TCSM are not meant purely for the mid-game. They're meant to get level 4 then go to town on all infantry, especially pesky T3 SHI.

[hastaga]

Plasma tacs and TCSM are not meant purely for the mid-game. They're meant to get level 4 then go to town on all infantry, especially pesky T3 SHI.

Point being. Once they died, you aren't gonna buy another squad of them ANYMORE (unless you need the rockets) when u're in t3.

Thus, termies are like a t3 replacement/upgrade to TCSM/plasma tac or even SGV

[David-CZ]

This 'spam' is at most 2 squads.

I don't know about 1v1 but in team games that isn't the case. And since the balance would affect not only the new version of 1v1 but the rest of the game as well it would result in a train of Terminators as it is with GK and Nids and their Carnifexes. No, thank you.

[hastaga]

This 'spam' is at most 2 squads.

I don't know about 1v1 but in team games that isn't the case. And since the balance would affect not only the new version of 1v1 but the rest of the game as well it would result in a train of Terminators as it is with GK and Nids and their Carnifexes. No, thank you.

Was referring to team game, 2 squads for a player at most. Never saw anyone having 3 squads of termie. It is not right to think terminator can replace the utility of a phobos GUO or LRR... they all have different use. Terminator is not an 'auto-win' unit that once you have them you'll immediately gain an obvious edge or something. They are just like any other s3 units. useful in some cases and not useful in some others.

wt i am promoting/arguing is that some times they appear to be the only right answer and they shouldn't be 'not allowed to be built' by players because of their 'field deploy' strategic value.

If you want to argue that allowing players to build termie one squad after another (Given you have enough resources) is bad, at least provide an actual example/theory.

[Torpid]

Point being. Once they died, you aren't gonna buy another squad of them ANYMORE (unless you need the rockets) when u're in t3.

Thus, termies are like a t3 replacement/upgrade to TCSM/plasma tac or even SGV

I wouldn't be so sure. I often buy late game TCSM and sterns make late game tacs more viable too. It depends on the compositions ultimately. I can assure you if termies had no CD I wouldn't be buying either sterns or TCSM in the late game though. Termies are a different thing entirely though, they are much harder to fight in melee, they have AV utility in the form of power fists/autocannon/missles and they are just so much more durable. Regarding your super unit vs vehicles thing, well super units are capping at one. No CD termies is essentially having no cap on the number of GUOs or Phobos' you can buy. It's one of the reasons that GK snowball effect is so strong if their eco lives through T2.

[hastaga]

Point being. Once they died, you aren't gonna buy another squad of them ANYMORE (unless you need the rockets) when u're in t3.

Thus, termies are like a t3 replacement/upgrade to TCSM/plasma tac or even SGV

I wouldn't be so sure. I often buy late game TCSM and sterns make late game tacs more viable too. It depends on the compositions ultimately. I can assure you if termies had no CD I wouldn't be buying either sterns or TCSM in the late game though. Termies are a different thing entirely though, they are much harder to fight in melee, they have AV utility in the form of power fists/autocannon/missles and they are just so much more durable. Regarding your super unit vs vehicles thing, well super units are capping at one. No CD termies is essentially having no cap on the number of GUOs or Phobos' you can buy. It's one of the reasons that GK snowball effect is so strong if their eco lives through T2.

I don't think it's even a problem that people stop getting TCSM or Stern once they hit t3. It's just like ppl stop getting Sentinel once they hit t2. Apparently you're going to choose termies over them because admittedly, those units are less effective for the t3 fights. Even if you build them, they're still gonna perform lackluster because they'll be up against all the monster units.

Termies may have AV capability but you also know that they are never really considered as effective AV units. It is just the same as before.

And I have explained earlier that if double termie is not wanted to be acquired too soon then just consider tuning up the cost of the build-from-base termies or the upkeep. One of the mainpoint i want to promote here is that people should be able to build units they want when it is deemed necessary.

Scenario:
"Ok I need termies against them, best answer"
"O no, I lost them too quickily coz of a fatal mistake"
"Alright i've got enough resources again but termies are still on CD.. now I don't have the best answer anymore"

[hastaga]

Also -_- regarding getting TCSM in t3

400 + T upgrade + eternal war + champion to get something that's worse than termie... not worthit at all.

[appiah4]

Also -_- regarding getting TCSM in t3

400 + T upgrade + eternal war + champion to get something that's worse than termie... not worthit at all.

It's your only good ranged DPS choice if Terminators are on cooldown or you are short on power.

[Indrid]

I don't think VP rate should be adjusted.

Ranked 1v1 matches often finish in 10-18 mins because a player concedes after something really bad happens. Games that go down to 0 VPs are usually 24m+ which is fine, unless the defeated player was just totally outplayed in which case it's only dragging out the time. 3v3s last longer because you have two team mates to carry/support you when bad stuff happens.

I guess we'll see.

[Warp Dust Addict]

This is going to hurt so much as IG Cannon CTermies with more health.Is there gonna be a change to demoralize or something?

[Broodwich]

Hench why I have mentioned several times that their surviveability is improved, meaning they're less likely to die. Which means that counters to them becomes weakened inconsequently.

And by how much exactly? Even 300 hp per model wouldnt last much longer against plasma fire or power melee. You'd really have to show some substantial numbers to be convincing. On top of that extra cooldown/less damage doesnt sound very appealing without, again, numbers. Your post appears to say they get over double the hp they have now(?), which I find hard to believe

As to Indrid's point I agree. This topic has come up before and I believe I said the same thing, t2 stuff just completely counters everything in t1, unlike t3 to t2. If you are behind when your opponent hits t2 you will be very hard pressed to come back, especially when he uses that advantage to blow all your power up

[Caeltos]

Your post appears to say they get over double the hp they have now(?), which I find hard to believe

Eh?

No, by improving their surviveability I'm mostly looking at their health regeneration. I never suggested their health was doubled.

[appiah4]

Your post appears to say they get over double the hp they have now(?), which I find hard to believe

Eh?

No, by improving their surviveability I'm mostly looking at their health regeneration. I never suggested their health was doubled.

So back to Retail days of Armor of the Apothecarion + Terminator Spam => Zero Bleed SM Troll Army?

There have been numerous topics on how to fix terminators, and I can't believe it came down to making them more survivable rather than more meaningful.

My 2c: Terminators really don't need to be more survivable, they are already VERY survivable unless you overestend them. They however do need to be somehow better balanced, both against each other and the meta. Currently Loyalist weapons don't do enough damage to most enemy units, the Reaper Autocannon for Chaos outclasses everything by a huge margin and the Assault Terminators are underwhelming because lots of things added to the game through the mod very effectively murder them (Malantai, flashgitz, Grey Knights, Phobos, etc.). Also, the arbitrary stat differences between variants is really pointless. All Terminators should have same health and melee skill, including GK. Paladins can have higher HP and slightly better Melee as per fluff. But they should differentiate through weapons. That would make balancing them so much easier (yet somehow the current approach only complicates things further..) Also, I think it must be acknowledged that the Terminator situation is a result of power creep across the board, so fixing them is not fixing the real issue.

[Caeltos]

So back to Retail days of Armor of the Apothecarion + Terminator Spam => Zero Bleed SM Troll Army?

There have been numerous topics on how to fix terminators, and I can't believe it came down to making them more survivable rather than more meaningful.

Sometimes I wonder if people even read the whole post.

[MaxPower]

@ Caeltos would be awesome if you could give us an answer to the question how you gonna address the different balance changes you would have to make in order to keep both game modes balanced. The game modes being the normal vp bleed one and the enhanced one.

[Black Relic]

Caeltos is making the termies more survivable yes and taking away some dps they deal. If you increase their survive ability mean you also increase their staying power. Increase the stay power, the better the unit is a contributing to a engagement which (from what i see now) seems to be similar to the role of nob nowadays.

Since he is looking at health regen. Termies might get health regen. similar to plagues marines' which would be pretty crazy.

[Caeltos]

Caeltos is making the termies more survivable yes and taking away some dps they deal. If you increase their survive ability mean you also increase their staying power. Increase the stay power, the better the unit is a contributing to a engagement which (from what i see now) seems to be similar to the role of nob nowadays.

Since he is looking at health regen. Termies might get health regen. similar to plagues marines' which would be pretty crazy.

That's more of an appropiate description of what they are looking to get. Health regeneration mitigates direct-damage alot more then a flat health amount in the longer confrontations compared to one another.

Let's just theorize, that this trade is more in the lines of - 5-10 dps from Terminators, for a 2.5 health regeneration value. (25 health per second). This gives them less straight up kill potential, for the sake of great sustainability and map control, as well as pressure. It of course, also with the armor type + health regeneration, mitigates almost every source of piercing_pvp completely. As well as negates a portion of it's counter-damage type vlaues by a medium sum as well.

[Warp Dust Addict]

Caeltos is making the termies more survivable yes and taking away some dps they deal. If you increase their survive ability mean you also increase their staying power. Increase the stay power, the better the unit is a contributing to a engagement which (from what i see now) seems to be similar to the role of nob nowadays.

Since he is looking at health regen. Termies might get health regen. similar to plagues marines' which would be pretty crazy.

That's more of an appropiate description of what they are looking to get. Health regeneration mitigates direct-damage alot more then a flat health amount in the longer confrontations compared to one another.

Let's just theorize, that this trade is more in the lines of - 5-10 dps from Terminators, for a 2.5 health regeneration value. (25 health per second). This gives them less straight up kill potential, for the sake of great sustainability and map control, as well as pressure. It of course, also with the armor type + health regeneration, mitigates almost every source of piercing_pvp completely. As well as negates a portion of it's counter-damage type vlaues by a medium sum as well.

Hm ill reserve judgement on this until the details are worked out (not sure if its going to be a group consensus or what)

[Broodwich]

Both in and out of combat? One of the issues is ofc having to walk them back and forth to base to heal unless you have other means on the field, which you don't have for most scenarios. That I could get behind, although maybe just for melee terms

[MaxPower]

I feel like I'm getting ignored. but how do you plan to balance both modes?

[Stoned_elf]

Snap.
As i think Tex said or was it indrid i think decent 1v1 can last up to 20+ mins or more and when significantly shorter that is down to either unmatched skill levels or one just going all out aggressive, getting the squad kill, keeping up pressure and opponent conceding.

Yes you say there choice in modes can be by different map choices to affect ticker timer but as Max says how do you balance the two different modes. Both use the same units with same stats, so one version will be 'balanced' or 'work' and the other by default will not...

[Indrid]

Well as the title says these are "tentative" changes, so I imagine details are still being worked out as to how it would work.

[Wurgl]

I only skimmed the thread, so I'm sorry if something I write was already addressed. Also, I'm only talking about 1v1.

Changing the VP tick would obviously change lategame timings and, imho, would actually nerf walkers. Some walkers are basically only good to zone the enemy and get a timing window, e.g. deffdread razing gens / capping the entire map or, lets say you are eldar vs sm, you know the sm is teching t3 so you try to end the game with a wraithlord. I say some walkers because sometimes sm build a dread just because, but that is (imo) because SM knows their t3 will be superior anyway.

Now, to come back to the Eldar example: I wont build a WLord when I know there is a chance a tank comes out in time before I ended the game.

Which brings me to point #2: I strongly doubt super units will ever be really viable in 1v1 as long as tanks are the way they are. A Pred will always be the better choice than a GUO. Same for Lemon / Baneblade.

If you just look at outer reaches you can see how the game changes once VPs tick slower (as tripple cap is basically impossibru there). I still remember that game where vindi played sm vs hammers ork - hammer completely crushed him before, now that he couldnt get a triple cap he lost after like 40 min. (ofc balance was different back then tho)

Now, im pretty sure cael knows about this whole timing stuff (after all, he was constantly talking about timings when i waged my personal crusade vs the crusher in retri) but i rly dont know if the results from that change are a) forseable and b) needed.

[sk4zi]

because SM knows their t3 will be superior anyway.

what is superior on SM T3?

changing the game lenght is imho worth a try.
its true that intense games are long enough, but very often i felt just a few more minutes were enough for the comeback... so the outcome could be more interesting close games.

i dont like the terminator changes at all - at least like how much is sayed for now.

that CD increase sounds really odd for me and feels like a GK buff concerning their non-existent cooldown ...
also the other termies are still limited to red.
i wonder why nobody else mentioned this ... they just cant be spammed because of the red they cost.

so (atm!) this looks to me like moar termies for GK and less for everyone else.
increasing their durability means the same!
this will make termis being less of an impact and change nothing, because once they are chased to death, they will die with and without regeneration
GK will be abble to spam more and more (or just rebuild the lost ones) once they have the recources and all other races with thermies chant just purchase them because of an odd cooldown.

so first of all, i would really like to read what changes here are planned for the (still spammable) other races´T3 infantery squads. (including nobz)

if you want SM and CSM force to build more Preds, just say it please...
but actually preds are rather squishy at this state of the game and its like hastaga sayed - Termies are not just a mean joice but sometimes the only reasonable unit to purchase...
limiting them makes the game not more interesting, it makes it less interesting!

[Caeltos]

because SM knows their t3 will be superior anyway.

what is superior on SM T3?

changing the game lenght is imho worth a try.
its true that intense games are long enough, but very often i felt just a few more minutes were enough for the comeback... so the outcome could be more interesting close games.

i dont like the terminator changes at all - at least like how much is sayed for now.

that CD increase sounds really odd for me and feels like a GK buff concerning their non-existent cooldown ...
also the other termies are still limited to red.
i wonder why nobody else mentioned this ... they just cant be spammed because of the red they cost.

so (atm!) this looks to me like moar termies for GK and less for everyone else.
increasing their durability means the same!
this will make termis being less of an impact and change nothing, because once they are chased to death, they will die with and without regeneration
GK will be abble to spam more and more (or just rebuild the lost ones) once they have the recources and all other races with thermies chant just purchase them because of an odd cooldown.

so first of all, i would really like to read what changes here are planned for the (still spammable) other races´T3 infantery squads. (including nobz)

if you want SM and CSM force to build more Preds, just say it please...
but actually preds are rather squishy at this state of the game and its like hastaga sayed - Termies are not just a mean joice but sometimes the only reasonable unit to purchase...
limiting them makes the game not more interesting, it makes it less interesting!

Check the Terminator thread.

[sk4zi]

i am on it

just recognized it´s there - but thanks

[Nuclear Arbitor]

EDIT: moved to termie thread

[Black Relic]

LC termies also (in my opinion) seem the charge more often. Thunder Hammer termies (if i get them) seem to be mainly there to soak up or tie up a unit that i dont want shooting. A lot of players seem to focus the termies down alot before going for other units (besides scouts).