Upcoming Terminator changes (DRAFT + Community input wanted)

[Black Relic]

Well a player isnt supposed to rely on a RHG in the first place that's dumb. I mean i dont rely on a the Thunder Hammers RNG at all. And you dont rely on MoK Dreads RNG either. You use it for what it does and what the weapon is good against or what it can bring to the table. RNG is just to reward a player if he get lucky, just like special attacks are also RNGs (unless a unit has lower melee skill). So I dont see any problem is this at all. It just make an engagement more unpredictable which i don't see anything wrong with as long as its not a "all the time" occurrence.

I think is more to help with small arms fire instead. Making T1 units like shootas and guardians (as examples) obsolete which would help survive ability alot.

Really? We are talking about 5.55 more dps for the whole squad. For comparison one scout does 7.58 dps...

The longer a unit can stay on the field the more the unit can do. That is the main motive for this change. And that ranged damage will help (even though its not much) when a unit tries to get away\kite. But we will see what happens with them when they get changed. If its a bad change it will probably get reverted back to its original state in no time.

[hastaga]

srsly tho. I do think hammer termie need a function buff of some kind.
Reason is very simple; given how expensive they are, when was the last time any of you thinking "o shit! Thunderhammer termies! A threat!" (when you weren't terribly far behind and losing, of coz).

I always just laugh it off when I see them. Easy targets to get gunned down in range despite the high hp, and also easy target to swarm down in melee. Doesn't matter if they have AV melee, get close first, and we'll 'talk'... but of coz, they can never effectively get close w/o risking getting wiped EASILY given how long of a CD teleport has.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

how do people feel that hammernators are right now? personally i'm not even sure they need a damage drop. they're very shitty against everything except for vehicles but they have a hard time keeping up with vehicles and so become walker counter initiation units; especially since they can't retreat and need to avoid damage as much as possible. every single melee squad with power melee seems to be able to force them off without much issue and they're not hard to avoid in general. LCs work because they do so much damage that they instantly force off most squads they manage to engage.

[hastaga]

^

That, totally.
And I don't even think they are that effective against walkers. No snare, no burst, and also very vulnerable against melee specialized walkers -_-

This is why I suggested to give thunderhammer termie active abilities in my previous previous thread. Make them specialize at something instead of a basic termie model that does nothing aside from being able to tank 5k dmg and has a worse recovery rate than vehicles.

Units disruption and/or anti-vehicle
or even provide defensive aura for nearby SM units. Makes sense with their bulkybody and a shield.

Personally I favor a sweeping melee attack (disruption). Coz really it doesn't make any sense at all to have a unit with such a gigantic hammer and such force in every move being swarmed down by smaller units for 'attacking slow'. Learn to use your weapons!

[ThongSong]

how about a tiny snare on the terminator thunder hammer instead of an outright stun? one of the reasons why they aren't particularly good at killing vehiciles is that they more often than not can't do it on their own. any tank can simply roll out of there. even a landraider can outrun terminators for crying out loud. and dreadnaught's have ability knockback which can knock back terminators and then proceed to open a can of whoop-ass on them. for hammernators to really get the job done they either need a snare to help them out first, or libby VoT to help them chase. that's one reason I feel paladins are so much better at killing tanks because they can get a psycannon to pewpew tanks as it tries to run away.

Nowadays I'd much rather get vanguards veterans over assault terminators just for the mobility they boast, and that vanguards can really lay down the hurt on anything heavy infantry that's not a lightclaw or gk terminator.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the problem is that if they're buffed to much they'll be guaranteed vehicle kills. they have enough hitpoints, and do enough damage, that if they could always hit it would be impossible to force them off. the only way to save a vehicle would be something like gravity blade. you can't simply justify it with cost either. their in a kind of shitty spot, design wise...

[Torpid]

They're not meant to counter vehicles... They're fine IMO, you drop them and it's GG, they're clearly a more 1v1-orientated unit, in 3v3 ranged termies are far more effective. SM have some great vehicle counters via the melta/missle combo, then note that if you had a T2 melee dread once you get your termies out you can give it a melta for more AV and if you plan on getting termies why not get a librarian, not only does he buff the termies a lot, but he also grants VoT las-devs which shred vehicles alongside hammer termies. However, like i said before, hammer-termies are ggminators vs range armies. They're the reason warp spider spam isn't viable vs the FC, they end games vs orks that go too ranged heavy especially when you consider the FC with his TH/artificer/halo is always available if you need to counter a couple of melee squads. They also finish the game vs chaos if they're stuck in T2 and only have 1 CSM when you drop them in.

[appiah4]

I think the tunderhammer damage is undewhelming, that's the core of the problem. They don't effectively kill anything you throw them at.

Fixing Terminators isn't really the big quantum physics problem this whole thread thinks it is.. The answer isn't about differentiating them, they don't need that. They are all terminators FFS.

At the baseline, excepting Paladins who should have better health, give them the same health, melee skill and ranged damage. Then balance out the weapon upgrades. My suggestions? Better powerfist damage across the board, increase Thunderhammer damage/Storm Shield regeneration, increase inspire range for Assault Terminators, equalize Chaos/Loyalist lightning claws, nerf autocannon, remove halberd splash (it's ridiculous) and you're more than halfway there.

As a sidenote, here's a suggestion: Give Thunderhammer/Storm Shield Assault Terminators an energy shield ability for their Storm Shields that can let them actually walk into enemy blobs. They lose it (and my proposed better regen) if they upgrade to Lightning Claws.

[Orkfaeller]

^


Units disruption and/or anti-vehicle
or even provide defensive aura for nearby SM units. Makes sense with their bulkybody and a shield.

The FC's defend ability?
I wouldnt complain^^

[ThongSong]

maybe give thunder hammer terminators the blue defensive aura the autarch/seer council gives nearby squads.

I mean, they are holding stormshields after all. they're supposed to be able to eat ungodly amounts of damage and shrug it off because they're terminators who doesn't afraid of anything.

but right now all you need is a couple tzeench marines or dark repears to look at them for a few seconds and they've already lost about 10% of their hp.

[Torpid]

So why did you buy terminators vs dual TCSM or dark reapers? Just a rush a tank and it's GG. If that isn't the case then why is your eco so behind? You're clearly playing worse.

The great fat ball of turd dies in seconds if you send it against dual dark reapers and a brightlance + fleetness banshees, but that's no argument for buffing the GUO becuase he's not meant to counter his counters super unit or not. Dual TCSM cost a lot, so much so that you could get dual ASM and still be on a similar economic level to him. In the case where you're struggling against specialised anti-HI fire you don't buy melee terminators, you buy a predator, or if they also have loads of AV then you buy either ranged terminators or vanguards to deal with their TCSM, which you choose to get all depends on the scenario really, likely vanguards, and yes, I mean a new second squad of ASM, to upgrade into vanguards alongside the original ASM.

[Symetric]

I´m ok with all the changes besides the TH stun.

well ok, its fluffy, no question, but could be too op with some combos and its kind of a lucky shot. On the other hand, Hammertermis need to be better vs Vehicles imo.

how about an active ability to give it more a tactical option (like "the next hit stuns them for x secs). Like i imagine it, it should be balanced to force a decision on the player. Basically, you Teleport defensive (to escape from wth threats you). If youre forced to decide:"i can save the Port for escape, but i can port to the tank instead and kill it with a high chance of success, which makes my Assault termis very voulnerable for counter..." that would be tactical and fun i think.

Ok, you could say:"its OP cuz you can run to a vehicle, kill it with your stun and port away". Yes, but when we chained the stun and the Port, it works how it should (after the port the termies hit harder/stun/slow the enemy vehicle)

[Nuclear Arbitor]

They're not meant to counter vehicles... They're fine IMO, you drop them and it's GG, they're clearly a more 1v1-orientated unit, in 3v3 ranged termies are far more effective. SM have some great vehicle counters via the melta/missle combo, then note that if you had a T2 melee dread once you get your termies out you can give it a melta for more AV and if you plan on getting termies why not get a librarian, not only does he buff the termies a lot, but he also grants VoT las-devs which shred vehicles alongside hammer termies. However, like i said before, hammer-termies are ggminators vs range armies. They're the reason warp spider spam isn't viable vs the FC, they end games vs orks that go too ranged heavy especially when you consider the FC with his TH/artificer/halo is always available if you need to counter a couple of melee squads. They also finish the game vs chaos if they're stuck in T2 and only have 1 CSM when you drop them in.

soo... they're not very good but they're tolerated because they're on the way to lightning claws? that's about what i get out of that. the only advantages TH/SS have over claws is more health and heavy melee damage. in every other way they're the same or worse and claws can still damage vehicles simply because they do 15% of a lot of damage.

i mean i get not getting the claw upgrade because it's expensive and the hammers have already done what was needed but that's because you just dropped a high health, SHI squad onto the field, not because hammers do it better. if claws just do the job better hammers might as well be removed.

---

i don't think i really want to see anymore stuns in the game; especially when they fuck with the already bad vehicle pathing. maybe giving hammers a higher energy regen than other termies would be enough.

[Torpid]

Well hammers = less DPS, more HP, which is sometimes precisely what you want. Especially vs orks, or pretty much any race stuck with a composition that possesses overwhelming amounts of piercing dps. Maybe they could get a little health buff. Going down the AV route seems completely silly when they're not even meant to be AV. They're just classic tanks, nothing wants to be near them, yet forcing them away is difficult.

[Dark Riku]

and if you plan on getting termies why not get a librarian

Because the librarian doesn't do anything for his super high cost.
And the shitty SM eco can't afford that anyway.

However, like i said before, hammer-termies are ggminators vs range armies.

How? They are slow as hell Kite a bit?

they end games vs orks that go too ranged heavy especially when you consider the FC with his TH/artificer/halo is always available if you need to counter a couple of melee squads.

Nobs come and say hello.

They also finish the game vs chaos if they're stuck in T2 and only have 1 CSM when you drop them in.

You'd hope they would do that but no they don't.
Get some letters out or another Tzeench csm. gg terminators.

[Black Relic]

and if you plan on getting termies why not get a librarian

Because the librarian doesn't do anything for his super high cost.

+1

The only real time you can get the libby is if you are ahead in eco and yours and the enemy's build leaves enough "room" for libby's rugged flexibility which pretty much never happens. And even if you are ahead, why pass up a dread?

[Atlas]

Maybe the issue with the Hammer Terminators is that we're thinking about their purpose in the wrong frame of mind?

I understand that they're meant to be slow and that they serve as good tanks. Maybe we should play to that strength and not necessarily see them as an anti-anything unit that's put on the field to kill things.

What about some sort of taunt ability that forces combat? It would be Hammer-only and they would get some kind of defensive bonus to help compensate for everything suddenly coming to take them down.

That way, you'd get the ranged terminatord for their flexibility in purpose and to help with the shooting, while the Assault Terminators would help control those really nasty units while your other stuff backs them up. Of course, the Lightning Claws are still there if you want more killy.

Just a newb thought. I have no data to back it up and it's just a spur of the moment post.

[hastaga]

What about some sort of taunt ability that forces combat? It would be Hammer-only and they would get some kind of defensive bonus to help compensate for everything suddenly coming to take them down.

Taunt actually makes alot of sense, coz hammer termies are tanks and tanks do that kind of stuff to protect other units. Tho I am not sure if even caeltos can add this ability to the game.

On a side note, I did think about the meaning of the 'no retreat' part on termies. Just like vehicles. It means you're supposed to or expected to contribute to the battle field for an extended amount of time (given the high hp) and consequently, suffer a terrible recovery rate (and we can all agree that repairing vehicles take much longer than healing ur units at base).

Hammer termies aren't doing that currently, coz of how slow they are. I think it may not be a bad idea to make them retreatable but lower their hitpoints to somewhere around 3 to 4k. Also slightly reduces the CD of TP to make it usable every 1.5 fights. Give players choice to tp out of base or into fights.. termies still walk friggin slow.

Just like the seer councils, with even less mobility.
I think this is ok coz melee can't contribute damage all the time (esp for terminator, melee). Their use is mostly to tie off other melees or to zone out opp ranged units until they gets gunned to the red zone.

[sk4zi]

thats acually not helping out.
Termies draw fire anyway ...

i could imagine, a shorter Teleport CD or a "sky-Leap" for them even more.

@stunn.

i like that actually, but why sould it be random... it can also be a half second stunn every hit, which is not stacking and with a 1 sec CD.

i think this is intendet for both. Infantery and Vehicles.

[Orkfaeller]

Give 'em And they shall know no fear^^

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I'm surprised about all the people agreeing with the Chaos Terminators melee/ranged changes. The ranged damage decrease is going to make them less effective in their default role (ranged damage squad) and the melee increase damage is pointless, because Chaos Terminators already shreds other ranged squads in melee combat and without any melee abilities (melee resistance aura, high melee skill, melee charge) even with the new melee damage increase are going to be owned by any power_melee melee squad (and this is completely correct because vanilla Chaos Terminators are a RANGED squad).

Seriously, I don't want a fucking T3 version of the EW AC CSM.

[Torpid]

Taunts are a terrible idea, they're way too abusable and this isn't the sort of game that allows for them anyway given that one squad's presence can utterly change the engagement from sheer disaster to easy win - imagine the assault termies taunts the enemies lascannon squad only to allow the melee dreadnought to walk in completely unhindered, seems very unfair and there are far more abusable applications such as taunting melee squads and kiting them into blobs to die miserable deaths, or taunting units into nades etc.

I guess hammernators could be buffed slightly with regards to their health, maybe to about 6000.

[appiah4]

.. imagine the assault termies taunts the enemies lascannon squad only to allow the melee dreadnought to walk in completely unhindered, seems very unfair and there are far more abusable applications such as taunting melee squads and kiting them into blobs to die miserable deaths, or taunting units into nades etc.

How is that different from Rift of the Warp, LA/GUO hook, Subjugation, Force Pull, Time Field (I forget the name of the ability now) into melee/grenades/nuke while your walker goes in and decimates stuff?

You talk as though that stuff doesn't exist in DOW2.. Shall we remove them all as well, seeing how this is an abusable and unfair tactic?

[Raffa]

A taunt for Thunder Hammer terminators is even worse than giving them a 15% chance to stun. And very little is.

[Forestradio]

Taunt is one of those abilities that makes sense in a campaign or a game mode like Last Stand but it's absurd in any sort of player vs player mode.

Not to mention taunt can be used around corners and other stuff to really screw up enemy units.

[Torpid]

Yeah and they're all bullshit abilities that really never should have been put in the game. Unfortunately I have no alternatives really so we're just gonna have to keep them, but honestly I still think all those abilities should be t3 and expensive.

Just those abilities themselves cost ~50 power and are T3 so to add it onto the boons of the hammernators would be just way too much, besides we don't want more of those abilities anyway.

[lolzarz]

Assuming changes are not finalized, I'd suggest giving the Assault Terminators' hammer splash. While giving the hammer splash may seem to make it overlap with the lightning claws, it should be noted that the hammer will still be an inferior anti-personnel weapon, as it deals far less DPS. It's just that, as we all agree, assault terminators should be able to defend themselves against the infantry escort of enemy armor.

If that will make Assault Terminators too unstoppable, then I think they should, at least, have some special abilities. They are, after all, elite units; they should be able to do more than swing a weapon.

What I'm thinking is to give them an energy bar and abilities. The abilities could be to overcharge their shield and/or hammer; maybe, say, making the shield grant additional damage resistance or making the hammer deal splash/knockback (maybe both). Not sure whether it would be better for it to be a toggled ability though.

[sk4zi]

i actually would like a (vehicle) stunn on hit. its fluffy and would make the hammers more reasonable.

also a damage reduction because of the shilelds would be imaginable.

[Raffa]

I'm surprised about all the people agreeing with the Chaos Terminators melee/ranged changes. The ranged damage decrease is going to make them less effective in their default role (ranged damage squad) and the melee increase damage is pointless, because Chaos Terminators already shreds other ranged squads in melee combat and without any melee abilities (melee resistance aura, high melee skill, melee charge) even with the new melee damage increase are going to be owned by any power_melee melee squad (and this is completely correct because vanilla Chaos Terminators are a RANGED squad).

Seriously, I don't want a fucking T3 version of the EW AC CSM.

+1

[Nurland]

I am a tad bit suspicious. This makes vanilla Chaos Termies quite a bit more shitty unit compared to other Lulminators. The higher melee damage is kinda nice but not very useful for a squad that does not have melee resistance aura, cannot retreat, is slow as fuq and is the most fragile Terminator variant. I mean I get the idea of trying to differentiate them from SM Terminators but this does not make them very appealing tbh.