Question about Nurgle Worship

[Torpid]

Sometimes when I use nurgle worship it takes a while before the health regen kicks in, it's like it only affects units that are out of combat, but I'm pretty sure that's not meant to be the case as it doesn't happen 100% of the time. Why is this? Is there just a delay before the regen kicks in under all circumstances?

[Bahamut]

From what i can see on the module files nurgle workship works like this

To non-daemon non-vehicle armor models (all infantry except blood letters): adds 0.35 regen. This means it ADDs 3.5hp/sec to each model it's affecting.

To daemons it adds 1 regen, that means 10 hp/sec per model to bloodletters, bloodcrushers and GUO. This mean a bloodletter squad can get up to 40hp/sec from the workship alone

[Indrid]

So Nurgle worship does give more HP regen to daemons compared to the others after all?

[Raffa]

I wasn't under the impression the worship heal on Daemons had changed from retail...

It was always an extra 12 hp/s under worship, for all heroes. Has this been changed somewhere?

Either I'm hopelessly out of date, someone's made a mistake with their numbers, or worship isn't healing daemons at the rate it should be.

[Uncle Milty]

No, it does not heal more than the other forms of worship.
This:

To daemons it adds 1 regen, that means 10 hp/sec per model to bloodletters, bloodcrushers and GUO. This mean a bloodletter squad can get up to 40hp/sec from the workship alone

is an attribute that every form of worship has. The other hp regen addition is non demonic only.

- edit -
About changes from 12hp/s i have no clue.

[Bahamut]

Well, i just opened the nurgle workship and read what was in it. That those 10hp/sec are shared for all forms of workship is a different story

[Wise Windu]

It is shared for all worship. It also adds 1.5 energy regen per second for daemons, and the health and energy regens are set as "exclusive", so they won't stack with the Nurgle health regen.

[Myrdal]

Most likely a bug. I've had a damaged units (but models intact) stand within worship range and not getting the regen buff until I restarted the worship. How often do you get this?

[Torpid]

Most likely a bug. I've had a damaged units (but models intact) stand within worship range and not getting the regen buff until I restarted the worship. How often do you get this?

I can't really say as I rarely play chaos nevermind PC, but it sounds like the same issue. Roughly it's probably once every couple of games, but I could just not be noticing it.

[Tex]

This only happens to heretics that are in combat afaik. I have never had a problem with nurgle worship and I can only ever remember heretics not getting bonuses from it until they are a few seconds away from combat.

[Myrdal]

Yes, this was indeed on another heretic squad. I'm surprised it happens this often though. As far as I can see there's no in/out of combat mechanic to this ability.

[sk4zi]

i really would love to see Nurgle whorship doing more than just the reg...
i feel also like its not very strong, but this is another point ...

i think its been sayed that on this whorship something is going to be changed ...

so my idea is giving it the only other benefit everey nurgle unit in the game has - Supression Resistance ...

i dont know if this is possible to balance but i would find it really cool.
Supression is one of the badest news for the PM at all since everything is very slow allready.
i dont mean direct supression resistance, but what the PM and also Palque Marines have.

They fire normal under supression but move still slow.

thats a thing nurgle whorship could grant and would make the PM play feel really cooler than its now.
and also it would not affect demons and vehicles at all, which is also the fact with the actual nurgle gift.

[Nurland]

So just to clarify (since I had some trouble understanding): You mean that Nurgle worship should allow units to fire normally under suppression?

[Torpid]

That would be way too strong as the PC already synergises quite nicely with dual CSM builds, I wouldn't mind actual basic suppression resistance though, that is increased courage/courage resistance(not sure how it works exactly, might even be increased courage regen).

[Raffa]

Extra regen with each tier, suppression resistance, extra HP when in range...

Just give it something to make Nurgle worship not useless once you've left T1, except ofc for leaving one or two heretics at base on permanant worship duty, and for the occasional repair.

OK I digress, you use it for blob healing when you can find nothing useful for your heretics to do. When you're dealing with plasma weaponry, strong melee weapons and artillery on a regular basis in T2...yeah you get the picture.

Right now I use it to help me through T1 and then for Bloodletter support (which it also sucks ass at). It's arguably the worst worship in T1 already. It's not like it lets you throw a disruptive, 1000HP cover breaker dealing 75 damage a shot straight onto a suppression team, or letting you hide a doombolt spamming sorcerer and forcing your opponent to back off or attack.

[Torpid]

Yeah, it really does need buffs, it's awful and it's not like it's that strong in teams either since it doesn't affect allies and it's still just such a weak heal, especially, as Raffa says, in the later tiers.

[Takadekadaka]

Perhaps Nurgle worship should allow the probability that units on death revive as undead uncontrollable units for 3 seconds with appropriate debuffs applied so it isn't broken?

I was thinking that it might mitigate the low health regen given by the worship a little and provide an interesting mechanic to the game. The probability aspect will help so that it isn't a guaranteed buff to a player's staying power but could help a bit.

Maybe the probability should go down based on a unit's strength, i.e. termies would be next to impossible to revive under worship and heretics happen semi-frequently. Debuffs should probably also scale up based on unit strength so in case you do manage to revive a lightning claw terminator, it won't break the battle outright?

Just a thought...

[Sub_Zero]

Why something you don't pay for should help you significantly? It does not need buffs at all. The apo's healing aura got nerfed. And the apo is a dedicated healer! His healing aura is supposed to be strong, yet it got nerfed. Yeah, let's buff Nurgle Worship. And don't say me that heretics are good in combat and while you command them to worship you lose a useful unit in combat. They are not. I always find them worshipping in my army. And only in rare situations I use them as combatants. You get the best shrine in T2. Be pleased with it. It does allow you to reinforce and you can have 100% field presence with it. And it is only for pathetic 150 / 15. And current state of the worship requires some judgement from you. You can't just press the button and move your army to own everything. You have to fall back sometimes, you have to take away injured units. Because you know that your army regens health while your opponent's army does not. That is your advantage already. Still need your heretics to fight? Then just buy an additional squad of heretics. They cost 210 req which is a cheap price.

[Bahamut]

i have to agree with sub_zero.

[Raffa]

Why something you don't pay for should help you significantly?...Yeah, let's buff Nurgle Worship. And don't say me that heretics are good in combat and while you command them to worship you lose a useful unit in combat. They are not. I always find them worshipping in my army. And only in rare situations I use them as combatants.

Worship is the biggest synergy of the Chaos army, is on a squishy unit that bleeds harder than anything else in the game and is hugely prone to wipes. Heretics are pretty damn essential in combat against jump troops for one, and against IG you need the grenade launchers, you need the AC to fight banshees, etc..

This is so fookin basic. I don't even know how you can write off heretics as not a useful combat unit. They are most useful in T1, when worship is also most useful. As their influence drops off dramatically in T2 their worship also fades into uselessness, which should not happen.

And current state of the worship requires some judgement from you. You can't just press the button and move your army to own everything. You have to fall back sometimes, you have to take away injured units. Because you know that your army regens health while your opponent's army does not. That is your advantage already. Still need your heretics to fight? Then just buy an additional squad of heretics. They cost 210 req which is a cheap price.

You're basically discarding the facts that:
1. Nurgle worship is the worst from T2 onwards.
2. It has the worst synergy with Daemons.
3. It has 0 synergy with vehicles.
Under the umbrella title of "you know that your army regens health while your opponent's army does not", and conveniently ignoring some information that doesn't help your argument.

And you cannot "just buy" additional heretics, however easy you make it sound. I strongly suggest you read some of the comments here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=653, where myself and Tex amongst others go into great detail about Chaos dependence on requisition. The key part of this is controlling your bleed and upkeep. Simply shoehorning an extra heretic squad into your army composition is not a solution.

The Nurgle Shrine is good, but not as good as it is made out to be by people who use its "effectiveness" to justify Nurgle Worship not getting buffs. You don't use shrines nearly as regularly as worship because they are highly situational and not a good purchase every game.

Comparing heretics' activated-ability heal-over-time to the Apothecary's passive heal aura and active exact-HP heal pretty much sums up what I think of this.

Your concerns could perhaps appear legitimate on paper, unfortunately they betray a very bad comprehension of how the Chaos army plays.

[Forestradio]

What Raffa said.

Every other form of worship is just so much better with the Chaos army starting in T2. It's not even a comparison.

While Nurgle shrines might be better for the field presence they give, you need to worship the shrine to get that on the field reinforcement.

Khorne Shrines give their damage buff and Tzeentch shrines give their damage resistance without the need for worship (although that does help the bloodletters and doombolts they spit out).

[sk4zi]

What Raffa said.

Every other form of worship is just so much better with the Chaos army starting in T2. It's not even a comparison.

While Nurgle shrines might be better for the field presence they give, you need to worship the shrine to get that on the field reinforcement.

Khorne Shrines give their damage buff and Tzeentch shrines give their damage resistance without the need for worship (although that does help the bloodletters and doombolts they spit out).

also shrine-worshipping Heretics give NOT the buff they give when they are worshipping without a shrine. this means a worshipped shrine doesnt heal a bloodcrusher

khorne worship gives 10% damag AND sprint - even to vehicles - awesome
tzeentch worship gives 10% damage reduction AND invisibility even to vehicles - even more awesome

nurgle whorhip gives +25 HP per sec and nothing else - poor!

a tac squad can outshoot this although it cant outshoot e.g. a being repaired sentinel

[Kvek]

What Raffa said.

Every other form of worship is just so much better with the Chaos army starting in T2. It's not even a comparison.

While Nurgle shrines might be better for the field presence they give, you need to worship the shrine to get that on the field reinforcement.

Khorne Shrines give their damage buff and Tzeentch shrines give their damage resistance without the need for worship (although that does help the bloodletters and doombolts they spit out).

also shrine-worshipping Heretics give NOT the buff they give when they are worshipping without a shrine. this means a worshipped shrine doesnt heal a bloodcrusher

khorne worship gives 10% damag AND sprint - even to vehicles - awesome
tzeentch worship gives 10% damage reduction AND invisibility even to vehicles - even more awesome

nurgle whorhip gives +25 HP per sec and nothing else - poor!

a tac squad can outshoot this although it cant outshoot e.g. a being repaired sentinel

I don't even know from where you got that info, Khorne worship gives only speed, and T one only infiltrates you, the other bonuses are given to you by the shrines.

25hp per sec, i seriously don't know how the fuck....

[sk4zi]

oh youre totally right kvek..

its not 25 its 3.5

sry for that.

[Kvek]

you should have noticed before man, it's a huge typo

[Myrdal]

As have been pointed out the discrepancy between nurgle and the other forms of worship becomes obvious in t2/t3, I don't even see how this can be argued. Although suppression resistance is a cool idea it's just another t1 buff with slightly better scaling potential than the health regen but most importantly it adds nothing to what I feel is the main issue, synergy with daemons/vehicles.

Out of the proposals I've seen here I think the extra hp within range that raffa mentioned is a decent one. It's in line with the more defensive nurgle theme and if that's too great of a buff it wouldn't be a stretch to consider a slight speed decrease during the effect. Also there's no need to complicate things by bringing up shrines (even though the nurgle shrine certainly is a good one), that's a separate issue.

[Bahamut]

the only reason why it doenst "scale" is because it doesnt affect vehicles. I could see nurgle workship affect vehicles actually. But from there to another type of buff...

[sk4zi]

the reg effect, could easily also affect vehicles like the other whorships also affect vehicles with their normal effect....
@the supression resistance ...
i found it cool because all nurgle units have this and it would give the PM a decent supression counter which is different from other play styles ...

so actually khorne worship is along with the chaos lord is also kind of a supression counter as is the invisibility of tzeentch.

i would like nurgle whorship turing normal units into kind of PM´s

ofc also it could give the DoT damage.

[Sub_Zero]

WHAT?! That is just insane. The only things that can effectively deal with the ranged based army of the PC (who is a rapist of all melee units/jump units) are suppression teams and artillery. Nothing outshoots his tzeentch marines who get constantly healed. And it is not OK if we give him for free such a benefit. Just a suggestion, I understand, but this topic is not even in balance discussion. There is one there actually, gotta move there for further discussions.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Try to outshoot a GM squad with Med Bunker/Chimera support without using melee squads or artillery.

Try to outshoot a Nob Big Shootas Shoota boyz in cover with trukk support without using melee squads or artillery.

Try to outshoot a Sarg Plasma Tac/Sternguards in heavy cover with Apo support without using melee squads or artillery...

Do you get the point?

Your hate towards TCSM is insane.

Nurgle Workshipp needs to scale with Heretics lvls or with Tiers. Simple as this. And maybe have a better synergy with Vehicles.