Why remove NF for GKI? SS Psykbolt

[ThongSong]

I actually would like energy burst by the SS to do a bit more, or have a cooldown reduction, or a duration increase. right now it's a great way of delibitatting the enemy, but you can only really use it once every 1.5 engagements and it's snare really doesn't do that much. I think it's one of the best ways GK has of controlling strong melee heroes as it's not reliant on suppression or knockback

[HandSome SoddiNg]

I actually would like energy burst by the SS to do a bit more, or have a cooldown reduction, or a duration increase. right now it's a great way of delibitatting the enemy, but you can only really use it once every 1.5 engagements and it's snare really doesn't do that much. I think it's one of the best ways GK has of controlling strong melee heroes as it's not reliant on suppression or knockback

Yeshhhh let SS retain their EB with Justicar ,i think its perfectly fine ,least people abuse it if its given CD reduction . SS having Pskbolts + Energy burst to control Melee units , Tactical marines has Tactical advance to shrug off Aggression ,SS one is Energy burst then>

TCSM well easily boned lol.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Why are you assuming you have all that to backup your melee squad and the Genestealers have nothing? Genestealers with even the basic Hive Tyrant melee synapse are scarier than ASM backed up by shooting. They do horrific damage to every armor type; infantry, heavy, superheavy, vehicle, what have you. They are the all around best melee unit in the game IMO.

Teee Improved Synaspe upgrade? that goes with Warp field . Taking down a HT in the engagement is a big win for SM . Nobody sends their Ellitist alone into battles without reinforcement . FC has his Hammer to control Stealers while TM just signum them to oblivion and Apothecary purification rites ,nowadays WB are real difficult to peel off models ,obviously their the ones who does the pounce as Homogaunts/Stealers gets the surround.

[Dark Riku]

TCSM well easily boned lol.

Yes, let's completely discard their massive dps.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

TCSM well easily boned lol.

Yes, let's completely discard their massive dps.

They have no benefits as dedicated range squad though unlike Loyalist tacs,adaptive to situations . TCSM always needs Heretics to defend em from ASM/Heroes alike .

[Dark Riku]

They have no benefits as dedicated range squad though unlike Loyalist tacs,adaptive to situations . TCSM always needs Heretics to defend em from ASM/Heroes alike .

Tacs don't need shotgunscouts to protect them? That's new to me.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Uh its all basic common sense ,am just stating TCSM has no benefits like tactical advance or Energy burst to save themselves from situations if their isolated. Shotguns scouts isn't always around tagging alongside Tacs,mostly ASM and your hero . So u get my point

[Dark Riku]

Except

their massive dps

benefit.
No I don't. What is your point? °_O

[Bahamut]

OMFG!!

His point is that SS are better in melee than tzeentch marines and they can defend themselves in melee!!

[HandSome SoddiNg]

His point is that SS are better in melee than tzeentch marines and they can defend themselves in melee!!

Yup Bahamut

Precisely, Their capable melee fighters and still has Energy burst to slow down Melee squads briefly and Tac marines with Sgt has Tactical advance to shrug off Melee Aggression momentarily(That is they soaked enough damage till its fully charged) if Shotgun scouts/Heroes are not present alongside em. Right riku?

TCSM when separated from your squad ,they easily be humped by Warrior broods/ASM/Shees,etc , forced to flee or run towards Heretics like chicken . Afterall even GM has execute retreat/DA has that much utilities and FOF /Spermaguants has crippling poisons/Ork shootaz has theirs,etc .

Except TCSM point and shoot squad

[Sub_Zero]

Excuse me, but TCSM do insanely high ranged damage and insanely high melee damage for a ranged squad. And most of the time any melee unit will be shot to bits by them.

Tacs do less damage both in melee and ranged and they can't activate their ability whenever they want. It needs to be charged by damage.

Strike squad however can use their ability every fight and can really stand against melee units because they have a high melee skill.

So tacs are the worst unit to fight on their own among above mentioned units.

And warriors get owned in melee by all these units (tacs, csm, strike squad). Warriors are disgusting in terms of fighting.

But talking about that we are going off-topic. Just wanted to say =)

[Forestradio]

Excuse me, but TCSM do insanely high ranged damage and insanely high melee damage for a ranged squad. And most of the time any melee unit will be shot to bits by them.

They aren't cheap and Chaos don't get many other sources of anti-infantry damage.

Tacs do less damage both in melee and ranged and they can't activate their ability whenever they want. It needs to be charged by damage.

You can't discount the fact that kraken bolts affects both melee and ranged damage.

Strike squad however can use their ability every fight and can really stand against melee units because they have a high melee skill.

They can't use energy burst every engagement and every other dedicated melee squad tears them to shreds or at the very least bleeds them disproportionately.

And warriors get owned in melee by all these units (tacs, csm, strike squad). Warriors are disgusting in terms of fighting.

But talking about that we are going off-topic. Just wanted to say =)

Don't discount the warrior passive knockdown leap, and they should always have swarms of gaunts with them anyway.

[Nurland]

Well Warriors do cost a fair bit less than any of these 3 squads mentioned... And they are not damage dealers per se, they provide synapse bonuses and disruption for Hormas, Jeanstealers, TG and Termas (if no ranged synapse is present). Entirely different role and all that... Most competent Nid players don't send their Warriors alone, they are usually acompanied by Rapemagaunts or something else. Warriors provide disruptions and Gaunts omnomnom the living shit out of anything.

Plasma Tacs are not quite as strong at dealing with SHI/HI/I as Tcsm but that is balanced by the lower cost of plasma gun, lower damage falloff when dropping models, the tactical flexibility ATSKNF and the ability to switch weapons brings them not to mention SM have more ways to buff their units than Chaos (not saying Chaos can't, but their options are more limited).

SS weapon upgrades just are not quite good enough in the later stages of the game atm. The ability is very nice but I think they struggle to make an impact later on. Hence I think SS have the worst scaling out of these 3 units.

[Orkfaeller]

Tactical Marines beat Warriors in melee? Really?

What does this take into account? Sergeant and Krakenbolts? ATSKNF?

[Bahamut]

Tactical Marines beat Warriors in melee? Really?

What does this take into account? Sergeant and Krakenbolts? ATSKNF?

just sarge, no matter if you're talking about normal warrior, venom brood warriors, BS warriors or AG warriors. As long as the tacticals got their sarge they will win that fight

Most competent Nid players don't send their Warriors alone, they are usually acompanied by Rapemagaunts or something else. Warriors provide disruptions and Gaunts omnomnom the living shit out of anything.

Exactly, warriors are there to be synapse beacons initial disruption, they are by design super shitty by themselves just like hormas are. That's why there's no gaunts without warriors or warriors without gaunts, they both need to be together

[Sneery_Thug]

Excuse me, but TCSM do insanely high ranged damage and insanely high melee damage for a ranged squad. And most of the time any melee unit will be shot to bits by them.

Tacs do less damage both in melee and ranged and they can't activate their ability whenever they want. It needs to be charged by damage.

Didn't try it myself, but Handsome Sodding told me, that tacs with sarge will definitely beat fully upgraded (with eternal war + aspiring champ + MoT) MoT csm squad in melee.

(without using "know no fear" ??)

[Bahamut]

probably they will yes, tho it's kinda pointless since tacs will lose over half their hp getting into melee so this hypothetical fight will never happen. But since the tac sarge does have a chainsword and it's capable of doing specials where neither normal tacs or CSM can do specials is very possible for tacs to easily beat tzeentch marines in melee

[Sub_Zero]

Didn't try it myself, but Handsome Sodding told me, that tacs with sarge will definitely beat fully upgraded (with eternal war + aspiring champ + MoT) MoT csm squad in melee.

(without using "know no fear" ??)

One day I calculated melee dps of tacs and melee dps of fully upgraded tcsm. If I remember correctly tcsm do 100 dps and tacs only 70+ dps. However if tacs will use kraken bolts and the sergeant will perform some special attacks then tacs will win, no doubts. BUT! How are they supposed to get into melee with them? =) From all my game experience I have never succesfully forced melee on tzeentch marines with my tacs and won that. Actually tacs can outshoot those bastards. All you need is a bit of luck. Saying a bit of luck I mean that the model with the plasma gun will not miss (it happens very often) and snipe some models of tcsm before tacs lose a member. It will sound strange for you but even in retail in my tests tacs were able to defeat tcsm. Here tacs have more health. So the chance is even bigger. And I tested that here too. Tacs win if some requirements are met.

[Dark Riku]

Precisely, Their capable melee fighters and still has Energy burst to slow down Melee squads briefly and Tac marines with Sgt has Tactical advance to shrug off Melee Aggression momentarily(That is they soaked enough damage till its fully charged) if Shotgun scouts/Heroes are not present alongside em. Right riku?

TCSM when separated from your squad ,they easily be humped by Warrior broods/ASM/Shees,etc , forced to flee or run towards Heretics like chicken . Afterall even GM has execute retreat/DA has that much utilities and FOF /Spermaguants has crippling poisons/Ork shootaz has theirs,etc .

Except TCSM point and shoot squad

That's only IF they have ATSKNF charged and off cooldown. For the Strike squad it also needs to be off cooldown and not drained of their energy. While TCSM don't have to wait on anything. Their dps will shoot down anything foolish enough to go out of cover.

And warriors get owned in melee by all these units (tacs, csm, strike squad). Warriors are disgusting in terms of fighting.

No they don't :p Especially not unupgraded vs unupgraded.
Later on in the game, with the Adrenal Glands upgrade, positioned behind the swarm, they will get in melee, disrupt with their leap and do damage.

just sarge, no matter if you're talking about normal warrior, venom brood warriors, BS warriors or AG warriors. As long as the tacticals got their sarge they will win that fight

No they won't.

[Bahamut]

just sarge, no matter if you're talking about normal warrior, venom brood warriors, BS warriors or AG warriors. As long as the tacticals got their sarge they will win that fight

No they won't.

Riku and i tested it and i was wrong. AG warriors do beat tacs with sarge in a straight up fight

They fought 4 times (2 in retail, 2 in elite) and in 3 out of 4 times the warriors came on top with no model loses, only once AG warriors lost a model

[Broodwich]

Yeah that wouldnt make any sense if they did, they have kb on leap, 70ms, power melee (or hvy with glands) and a nice special. I'm pretty sure we have some bullshit here

[Dark Riku]

only once AG warriors lost a model

That was in retail.

[Bahamut]

only once AG warriors lost a model

That was in retail.

it was the first time 3 tac models ganged on 1 warrior squad yes. All 4 times the warriors won the fight with between 300 and 600 hp left.

Dunno, i think the first time i tested it was one of those super lucky times when 4 tac models focused a warrior model for long enough to kill it quickly. Anyway, tacs with sarge will beat any warrior version in melee except AG warriors for sure

Still, warriors by themselves are not meant to be good, that was my original point, same as hormagaunts by themselves are quite bad. But when warriors and hormas are together they are very, very scary

[M4573R_CH13f]

Nothing is an Understatement yo , ,Sluggaz/BL/Seer council/Nobz,etc gives them a run for their money.

sorry for bringing that up again, but that's just wrong.
you would not believe how fast bloodletters get destroyed by geens. sluggas could put a good fight on them, i doubt they'll win though. and that's without synapse. and they still even destroy ogryns... anything in t2. with synapse they will easily defeat seer council and the heavy melee terminator variants, except maaaaaaybe paladins... and fully upgraded nobs can just about win against them, depending on specials. but it's close. and if they dont have even one of the upgrades, they easily loose.

the claw-upgrade gives them 39 dps heavy melee instead of 34 power melee each. means, they do 39 dps instead of 44 to hi and shi. so it can potencially be a downgrade
of course, any vehicle they touch will now instantly fall apart, they do more heavy melee damage then...wait, your chance to prove me wrong... any other squad in the game.

[Forestradio]

Would like to reiterate the original Strike Squad Psybolt Ammunition upgrade, as thought of by Torpid and myself in the "GK Balance Assessment Thread"

Psy-Bolt Ammunitions Upgrade

Cost: 100/25

Tier 2

Once purchased, the strike squad cannot equip Incinerators or Pyscannons, and is unable to research the Nemesis Focus upgrade.

The upgrade changes the damage type of the Strike Squad ranged weapons from "piercing_pvp" to "Inferno_pvp"

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/Damage_types

Psy-Bolt Ammunition would not affect raw dps values, only damage type.

[Bahamut]

so with that SS would be tzeentch marines that can also melee? how the hell you beat that?

[crazyman64335]

so with that SS would be tzeentch marines that can also melee? how the hell you beat that?

think you missed that last line he posted, about the DPS being the same

[Bahamut]

they will still outshoot the living crap out tacs, 13 dps inferno > 14.5 piercing

[Forestradio]

When Strike Squad get viable, effective weapon upgrades like tacs do, then we can talk about them being carbon-copies of each other.

Sadly, Strike Squad don't get weapon upgrades like that, and their supposed "melee" upgrade suffers the crippling disadvantage of still making them shit in melee.

[Black Relic]

I was actually thinking that maybe it should be some sort of ability? Maybe after you hit t2? Changes the damage type to the SS to inferno for 10 seconds. And it effects their weapon upgrades (unless they have NF). Thoughts on that? Or does the weapon upgrade fit the bill better?