Apothecary Combat Stimulants

[Ace of Swords]

Well, the inspiration should be their main purchasing factor,atleast on normal termies, but I don't really see that as their main perk, they are, much likely the guo a magnet for damage, or atleast they both were while giving other sort forms of support.

[Sub_Zero]

I wrote a big post but my fucking PC turned off. So this time I will try to bring you my point quicker.

My point is that Doom, Mark Target are overpowered and combat stimulants (if those abilities considered as balanced) are underpowered.

I will write some data that might help the discussion.

The Signum Armor
Tier position - T2
Slot - armors
Cost - 135 requisition and 30 power
What does it give? The mark target ability, +5 weapon range for the Techmarine, +10% ranged damage output for the Techmarine, +50 more health for the Techmarine
What does the ability do? The mark target ability increases damage output of X* friendly units by 50% for 10 seconds**; cooldown 45 seconds; 40 energy to use

Combat Stimulants
Tier position - T2
Slot - armors
Cost - 100 requisition and 25 power
What does it give? The combat stimulants ability, +100 health for the Apothecary
What does the ability do? The combat stimulants ability increases damage output of one infantry based friendly unit by 30% for 15 seconds; cooldown 40 seconds; 40 energy to use

The Doom Bringer
Tier position - T1
Slot - weapons
Cost - 115 requisition and 25 power
What does it give? The doom ability, a 57 dps melee_pvp melee weapon, a 10 dps piercing_pvp ranged weapon
What does the ability do? The doom ability increases damage output of X* friendly units by 40% for 10 seconds**; cooldown 30 seconds; 50 energy to use

* - all your infantry based units and vehicles including your hero can do the increased damage
** - when you debuff some important enemy unit you command all your units to attack it; let me bring some examples. When you buff one infantry based unit with your combat stimulants and command it to attack one important enemy unit then the buffed unit will do 30% more damage or in other words the unit that is attacked will receive 30% more damage from the buffed unit. When you debuff some important unit (doom, mark target) and command all your available units to attack it then the units that attack it will do 40%/50% more damage or in other words the unit that is attacked will receive 40%/50% more damage from all the units that attack it.

My conclusions are that the Apo's wargear almost gives no benefits for the commander himself and gives a relatively weak ability if we consider low damage output of infantry based space marines units (the ability does make a unit of choice immune to suppression). The other two wargears' abilities are overpowered for stated reasons below. They basically force to retreat any enemy unit because of insane damage output coming from all units that attack the debuffed unit.

My solutions are to buff the Apo's wargear and to nerf the abilities of 2 other wargears. Now let's get to it.

I suggested a while ago to make the combat stimulants more versatile. I suggested to buff it giving it an additional benefit for any unit that is buffed by the ability. My suggestion was an increased melee skill for the buffed unit. +5/.../+10 and I think it will make the wargear more desirable to use and will open some interesting tactics. Anyway we might give the ability more strength just by increasing the damage bonus. Let's say 40%/45%/50%.

I think that those 2 abilities should be nerfed. And quite significantly. The doom should go down to 20% from 40% and the mark target should go down to 25% from 50%. It is still a whole lot. I explained that below.

[Nurland]

Wombat stims used to be 40% but were deemed too good iirc. They do seem a bit underwhelming at least compared to other support oriented wargear. Maybe they could passively buff the apo himself like passive damage buff and a bit more health. I would probably not buff the ability itself. Maybe a 5sec cooldown decrease.

Just throwing out ideas here.

[Torpid]

Yeah, I like the passive buff to apo hp/melee, maybe by 10% each.

An alternative I was thinking about was making the stims grant increased energy regen and -50% ability cooldown. This would give it some nice synergy in team games, but even in 1v1 it would make it useful in synergy with ASM and the libby. Of course, it would mean stims would have to be banned from use with the apo, else there would be little point getting purity.

I think signum is overpowered just because the TM army has such mad amounts of DPS, although I don't find doom too overpowered, mainly because the farseer just doesn't seem to have that much else, everything else that she does, really the warlock can do it better, except a few things, doom being one of them. Maybe doombringer could get a price increase though, maybe to 30 power. It nearly does as much damage as the MWB which is 35, but OFC it doesn't do that stupidly powerful special attack, nor the energy drain, but while it doesn't KB on the ranged attack, the ranged attack of the doombringer is actually useful since it does the basic 10dps+5dps every second for 5 seconds, so overall it is doing 35dps, which is equal to the techmarine's damage, with some of that acting as a DoT.

[sk4zi]

thought his shoes give ability cd decrease?

[Black Relic]

I always thought that combat stim should lower damage taken by the effected squad in some form. Or hell, maybe KB immunity, other than ability, for the duration. Make them into a PC with AoP for the duration.

[Sneery_Thug]

Yeah, I like the passive buff to apo hp/melee, maybe by 10% each.

An alternative I was thinking about was making the stims grant increased energy regen and -50% ability cooldown. This would give it some nice synergy in team games, but even in 1v1 it would make it useful in synergy with ASM and the libby. Of course, it would mean stims would have to be banned from use with the apo, else there would be little point getting purity.

I think signum is overpowered just because the TM army has such mad amounts of DPS

Absolutely agreed. Signum combined with TM's plasma or melta gun (or even his bolter if vs light infantry) just makes just too much damage on TM alone not considering the other squads around. At least in team games it is too much.

And some buff for combat stims would be nice, since the armor of purity synergises good with the purification rites, armor of the apothecarion - with the improved medic equipment. And combat stims ?

[Sneery_Thug]

Btw, is purification rites upgrade good as it is?

[Warp Dust Addict]

Btw, is purification rites upgrade good as it is?

No its not really worth it.You are paying for only 1 KB that isn't very good

[Arbit]

** - when you debuff some important enemy unit you command all your units to attack it; let me bring some examples. When you buff one infantry based unit with your combat stimulants and command it to attack one important enemy unit then the buffed unit will do 30% more damage or in other words the unit that is attacked will receive 30% more damage from the buffed unit. When you debuff some important unit (doom, mark target) and command all your available units to attack it then the units that attack it will do 40%/50% more damage or in other words the unit that is attacked will receive 40%/50% more damage from all the units that attack it.

There are some advantages to a stim style buff rather than a market target/doom style debuff. For stims you only have to be near the unit you want to buff, whereas with mark target I think the range is something like 25 or 30, which can be a problem if you're trying to mark a leman russ surrounded by guardsmen and catachans. With stims you can stim a longe range unit like a lascannon and not have to expose your apo. Stims also last longer, and your buffed unit gets to make use of the increased damage for as long as there are targets around, where a doomed/marked unit can be withdrawn or retreated out of range. I don't disagree that a doom/mark target style debuff can be a more powerful but stims aren't worse under all circumstances, either.

I'm wary of nerfing signum. It's basically how the TM scales against non-power armor races, and it's his counter to tanky heroes, particularly those that can't be knocked over like dark halo CL, teleporting brocap, hive tyrant, etc. It gets ridiculous with plasma gun overcharge though, can't deny that... I kinda wish it had a different ability than overcharge, like a single AOE knockdown shot (visually similar to a pdev shot but with much much lower damage) so it would be less powerful against power armor races but usable against light infantry races. When firing at light infantry, the plasgun does dps similar to the meks basic shooter (plasma gun, mek shoota).

[Vapor]

the ranged attack of the doombringer is actually useful since it does the basic 10dps+5dps every second for 5 seconds, so overall it is doing 35dps, which is equal to the techmarine's damage, with some of that acting as a DoT.

Not sure if that is correct since I don't think the DoT is applied every second.

[Black Relic]

Btw, is purification rites upgrade good as it is?

No its not really worth it.You are paying for only 1 KB that isn't very good

That and the KB isnt very reliable. The units HAVE to be in able to spit on each other in order to get the knockback from purification rites. It should be similar to Warboss Spike armor and Knockback units in a small radius or like 2 or 3. Then I think it would justify its cost so much where it might need a increase.

[Torpid]

@FV, I dunno, I haven't checked it, but that's what the wiki says and when I do use it ranged stance it does seem to do quite chunky amounts of damage.

Regarding purity rites I find them overpriced. Often I want to get them when I go for a melee build with my apo, so often that's alongside sanguine but with sanguine being 25 power and rites being 25 power there's no way I'm going to spend 50 power solely for utility, so i'm never going to get rites in t1, only in t2 alongside the power axe. I think rites should be 20 power.

[Kvek]

Btw, is purification rites upgrade good as it is?

No its not really worth it.You are paying for only 1 KB that isn't very good

So Maul is a bad purchase now? Because you get only 1 kb?
Seriously, rites are pretty great, you get an easy-on demand knockback that makes asms godlike...

[Warp Dust Addict]

Btw, is purification rites upgrade good as it is?

No its not really worth it.You are paying for only 1 KB that isn't very good

So Maul is a bad purchase now? Because you get only 1 kb?
Seriously, rites are pretty great, you get an easy-on demand knockback that makes asms godlike...

You cant even compare them...one is a 100 DPS (?) melee weapon the other does almost 0 damage (like what 20 piercing?)Improved Medical Equipment is way better and you can benefit from it in every engagement.IMO being able to toss heals out all the time is better then having 1 KB

[Wise Windu]

the ranged attack of the doombringer is actually useful since it does the basic 10dps+5dps every second for 5 seconds, so overall it is doing 35dps, which is equal to the techmarine's damage, with some of that acting as a DoT.

Not sure if that is correct since I don't think the DoT is applied every second.

@FV, I dunno, I haven't checked it, but that's what the wiki says and when I do use it ranged stance it does seem to do quite chunky amounts of damage.

It is 5 dps piercing every second for 5 seconds.

whereas with mark target I think the range is something like 25 or 30

30

almost 0 damage (like what 20 piercing?)

15 piercing

[Warp Dust Addict]

Thanks Windu

[Dark Riku]

So Maul is a bad purchase now? Because you get only 1 kb?
Seriously, rites are pretty great, you get an easy-on demand knockback that makes asms godlike...

Talking about bias and reading comprehension -.-
1 small kb where they need to hug the units in order for it to even work
vs baseball bat, one HUGE kb WITH STUN.

not to mention rites only works on a squad that you heal.

[Torpid]

@Warp Dust Addict, it is, which is why if you have armour of purity/stims you need the power axe. Still, in t1 rites-asm + sanguine-apo is vicious to fight against, but it's 50 power, it's too much. Rites are good, but probably a bit overpriced.

[Wise Windu]

@Warp Dust Addict By the way, you can check the Codex for that now

http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... apothecary

[Warp Dust Addict]

@Warp Dust Addict, it is, which is why if you have armour of purity/stims you need the power axe. Still, in t1 rites-asm + sanguine-apo is vicious to fight against, but it's 50 power, it's too much. Rites are good, but probably a bit overpriced.

Yea rites are good but for the cost and for the fact that it doesn't scale well I prefer not to get them.Not to mention it doesn't have the synergy of the Apo's other gear's and the fact that you can always get some shotty scouts for a KB and use the Apo to heal the ASM and keep them in melee longer/make sure they don't lose models


And yea thanks Windu I just remembered you updated it lol

[Torpid]

Well the idea with the apo is that you demolish your foe without incurring any damage and chains of knockback do that. Initiate against the enemy with jump on the ASM knocking them back, follow it up with a merciless strike for more KB, follow up with an explosive shot, then, atfer most of his army is dead, but just in case the battle hasn't ended heal your army back to full health and knock over his melee again and given that you can do all that his melee is not going to have enough health to stand up and simply fight ASM. Remember everytime they lose models their overall DPS falls (any squad), and being on your ass is a sure good way of losing models.

My point is that rites scales as well as shotgun blast does (excellently), the problem is that rites is a t1 wargear for a reason and 25 power for what it does is not worth it so you end up seeing a lot of people buying it in t2, much like armour of purity, but I feel that's unfair because often you do need rites and you ought to have rites (like vs pb+slugga builds) without having to spend obscene amounts of $.

[Codex]

I remember back in the day when Apo stims outshone everything. It made AoP look like a joke. Now it's still very good. I think people underestimate how good suppression immunity is: ASM become even beastlier than before, and merciless strike goes from good to epic. If the libby was in the meta, stim ASM+ VOT is pretty amazing, and when it used to give +3 speed was flat out insane.

Imo stims are fine, although using it on the Apo himself is pretty suboptimal in most cases.

[Kvek]

So Maul is a bad purchase now? Because you get only 1 kb?
Seriously, rites are pretty great, you get an easy-on demand knockback that makes asms godlike...

You cant even compare them...one is a 100 DPS (?) melee weapon the other does almost 0 damage (like what 20 piercing?)Improved Medical Equipment is way better and you can benefit from it in every engagement.IMO being able to toss heals out all the time is better then having 1 KB

I was being sarcastic about the BL, since you said that rites are bad just because it's only one kb...

And IME is t2 and gives you more energy, so instead of a good kb you get some energy? doesn't seem that good if you can manage your energy well, and you can benefit from the Rites in every engagement as well

[Sub_Zero]

Honestly in the current state the armor might be shifted to T1. It does not offer great benefits of a T2 wargear. I have no idea why the armor of purity is in T1. You don't have a lot of energy to spam heals like you do that in T2 with the improved medical equipment.

Codex, go on your thoughts and explain me why the wargear was OP if even then it used to be worse than the Doom or the Mark Target. According to you logic and others' logic the Doom and the Mark Target are incredibly OP. Tell me why a T2 wargear should be worse than a T1 wargear (your point about the armor of purity being useless if combat stimulants are better). I don't see how you find suppression immunity useful on assault marines who are by default counter suppression teams. If you talk about other situational suppression factors (the farseer's ability, the techmarine's ability, shoota boyz' ability etc) then it might be true. However with good energy management you can always have a second jump to negate that.

My idea is to give some passive benefits for the armor and buff the ability. I thought about the same idea that Nurland had suggested (improved melee damage for the Apo). I also like his idea how to buff the ability - lowered cooldown. It would allow to use it more often and the Apo can't really run out of energy if he has the improved medical equipment kitted out. The Torpid's idea seems interesting. The Black Relic idea seems interesting too and I thought about that before.

Arbit, it is not that simple as I said, of course, there are some good sides of combat stimulants, I don't deny it. But you have to agree with me that the Farseer's wargear and the Techmarine's wargear overshadow the Apo's wargear and all these 3 things cost almost same resources. And they can be compared. Give me a valid reason why they should not be compared.

P. S. Whenever I use purification rites I am pleased with the results, it is overpriced however.

[Lulgrim]

Back when I tried to be Apo, MCB + Stims + IME and Lib in T2 was the cookie cutter build. ASM would have Stims and Veil up in most engagements, inflicting a bunch of bleed/wipes unhindered by HBs or Tics or even HQ turrets, and leveling fast. For AV, a lascannon with Veil and +40% damage is not bad. Or just a rear armor shot from stimmed Melta Bomb. Blob? Have a stimmed Smite (with the old damage) just as the ASM land. Garrison? Stimmed grenade here you go.

On the trollier side, Tacs with Stims and Veil can dash behind undefended HQ turrets to burn them down.

[Codex]

Just to reinforce what Lulgrim has said, the reason stims were omgwtfamazing was the fact that stims+ VOT was a one size fits all build. The thing is doom and mark target probably just forces a retreat. If you're smart about it and you see doombringer and mark target you will keep your finger on that retreat button and hammer it like crazy. Sure, it's a strong ability, but most of the time these heroes telegraph that they're about to use doom/mark target.

Compare it to stimmed VOT ASM of old. Speed 8 (For reference shees+ exarch has speed 6.5), oh and they get melee charge, and their jump leap. And whereas without VOT the jump charge doesn't really help with chasing, when you have +3 speed it actually helps with chasing a lot. Oh, and they're stimmed, so they can't be suppressed, so forget about using setup teams or master crafted bolter to prevent retreat wiping.

For reference, at its peak, I would say VOT stim ASM were better than shees at retreat killing (swift movement might rival it).

Oh and stim smite wtfpwn'd. The way you used to see TCSM blob, I've wiped 2 CSM squads in one combo with the stim smite asm jump VOT chase you back to base combo. On more than one occasion.

Then stims were effective with terminators as well. I wish people would say they're not effective on terminators. The fact they have some of the best dps on infantry available to SM, and they proc inspiring auras make them amongst the best targets to stim.

So really the problem is that stims of old synergised with everything and were a one-size-fits-all kind of wargear.

But anyway, I don't think you can put stims in its current state in T1. If you do say goodbye to setup team play against Apo ever again, as ASM with stims will just rofl through 2 setup teams no problem.

[Forestradio]

Combat stims are fine, putting them in T1 would be insane.

[Sub_Zero]

If you have come up with such interesting examples then let me bring my interesting example.

Film: Assault_marines_get_raped_by_girls.wmv
Actors: a shuriken cannon crew, a banshee squad, the Farseer with the Doom Bringer kitted out, some unlucky assault marines
Roles: luring, raping, casting, dying

Isn't this example more scarier than all your examples taken one with another? I don't want to get into details really. Like counting dps and naming other stuff. If you are in a healthy state of your mind you can understand how much more pain my combination brings compared to yours. You might say me use snipers or grenades. I might say you that a khorne dread would have torn apart your "OP" combination. And please do notice that the counter part (the khorne dread) is relatively equal in terms of cost to the thing (combat stimulatants, the librarian with the tome of time etc) it is supposed to counter.

And you know forcing a retreat is a big deal. The Lictor Alpha can do that only in T3 and he pays tons of money for that. The Farseer is capable of doing that in T1 and she pays laughable amounts of resourses for her OP device. By forcing a retreat I mean the only counter measure that allows to save your unit from dying/getting bled horribly. If somehow a ranged squad can just move away from his death then a melee squad/jump squad has nothing to do but retreat.

You guys have double standards or something like that?

P. S. In advance I want to apologize if some part of my message insults you, I don't want to turn this discussion into something disgusting, however I am losing my patience

[Ace of Swords]

Codex and Lulgrim, everything you mentitioned worked in retail like you told, and I see why you don't want that back it's fine, but you guys know that everything was directly or indirectly nerfed both in retail and elite so there is no way those are coming in any way, stims are indeed underperforming both because they barely fit the apo playstyle and because they are largely ineffective, especially with the role that the apo needs to perform in the army, though a pretty easy fix would be to up damage to 30%, remove supression immunity, and give the apo some more healt than now and +50 energy.