Apothecary Combat Stimulants

[Sub_Zero]

Ace of Swords, stimulants already grant a 30% damage bonus. They were buffed a bit.

[Ace of Swords]

Oh right then, as a damage buff that's fine, still they need to be able to synergize better with a frontline apo.

[Phoenix]

If you have come up with such interesting examples then let me bring my interesting example.

Film: Assault_marines_get_raped_by_girls.wmv
Actors: a shuriken cannon crew, a banshee squad, the Farseer with the Doom Bringer kitted out, some unlucky assault marines
Roles: luring, raping, casting, dying

Isn't this example more scarier than all your examples taken one with another? I don't want to get into details really. Like counting dps and naming other stuff. If you are in a healthy state of your mind you can understand how much more pain my combination brings compared to yours. You might say me use snipers or grenades. I might say you that a khorne dread would have torn apart your "OP" combination. And please do notice that the counter part (the khorne dread) is relatively equal in terms of cost to the thing (combat stimulatants, the librarian with the tome of time etc) it is supposed to counter.

And you know forcing a retreat is a big deal. The Lictor Alpha can do that only in T3 and he pays tons of money for that. The Farseer is capable of doing that in T1 and she pays laughable amounts of resourses for her OP device. By forcing a retreat I mean the only counter measure that allows to save your unit from dying/getting bled horribly. If somehow a ranged squad can just move away from his death then a melee squad/jump squad has nothing to do but retreat.

You guys have double standards or something like that?

P. S. In advance I want to apologize if some part of my message insults you, I don't want to turn this discussion into something disgusting, however I am losing my patience

Dude what are you even trying to say? Of course it is not a Cookie Cutter Build that roflpwns everything.

In this example you just get shotguns and purification rights and you will win the engagement because the banshees will not apply damage as long as they are sitting on their asses and have to retreat eventually.

[Codex]

Ace, I don't understand why you would remove the suppression immunity. It's one of the few things that makes the wargear good. Also, I don't find the Apo too squishy in 1v1 with stims, but he gets easier to focus down in 2v2 and 3v3.

Further, the way I see it I need to get levels on the Apo to make use of his abilities. Stims has an energy cost, but so do vials, and vials are still viable. Their energy cost are comparable as well. Why do you want him to get more energy? I'm not against it in theory but you need to back up your balance suggestions rather than saying "I would do this this and this" (this applies to everyone, not just Ace of Swords)

Sub_Zero:

Having played against Necro, an old friend who used KDread against my Apo all the time, over many months and perhaps over a year, I can say for a fact that a mixed composition with Stims and libby just dances around a Kdread. He pops bloodrage, you immediately VOT and stim up and go straight for the supporting Chaos army. There's no reason to try to man-mode a kdread, ever. In retail that thing can man-mode an Avatar for crying out loud. So saying that going head on into a Kdread is disingenuous: that's really not how you're meant to cope with a kdread with an infantry based army.

I'm updating my guide to DOW2 which I'll be posting soon: but the idea of how to cope with a walker with an infantry composition is the same as when you get outteched. Take advantage of the fact that the walker is just a single unit with limited mobility, dance around and attack the supporting army. Once you force off the supporting army a walker is infinitely easier to deal with. This does not apply in the same way to a Deff Dredd with Burnas and Bitz, since he can make a beeline for your gen farm and wipe it very quickly. This is why a fast Deff is so good.

Okay, now to cover your example with Shuriken, Doombringer, Shees vs ASM. Yes, that setup is notoriously difficult to break down, but the difference is that Doom only increases damage received by the ASM. What I would do against this setup (as Apo, for example), is take rites, ASM, shotgun (and sergeant?). ASM jump in a disrupt, he drops doom. At this point you HAVE to have the supporting army closing in. If they don't, then the ASM are doomed (pun intended). Rites heal and/or (preferably or since keeping one behind is useful for going again) shotgun blast will keep them off your ASM. If need be, you can reset and go again. Surviving this initial doom is key to breaking down his position.

Doom is scary if you let him dps you. Considering that SM and Eldar are my two main races, I've seen both sides of this fight many, many times. Tbh, as far as ASM play goes, I much prefer going ghosthelm against ASM+ Apo than I do doombringer, since you actually have a degree of control on the SM and are able to split the ASM from the supporting army, which will screw them over more than simply a damage received buff. I agree that being able to force a retreat is very strong but there have been quite a few times that I've kited out of a doom debuff and gone again after the debuff is gone.

TL;DR: If the SM is able to support his ASM quickly, and keep his force compact, he'll be able to minimise the effect of a debuff like Doom.

But yes stuff like:

You guys have double standards or something like that?

P. S. In advance I want to apologize if some part of my message insults you, I don't want to turn this discussion into something disgusting, however I am losing my patience

is definitely confrontational and apparently belligerent. It's a good thing you put a disclaimer because some people might interpret that as hostile.

[Ace of Swords]

Further, the way I see it I need to get levels on the Apo to make use of his abilities. Stims has an energy cost, but so do vials, and vials are still viable. Their energy cost are comparable as well. Why do you want him to get more energy? I'm not against it in theory but you need to back up your balance suggestions rather than saying "I would do this this and this" (this applies to everyone, not just Ace of Swords)

Saying the apo needs levels to use his abilities is like saying the FS needs to, she has alot of viable builds because more than 1 wargear offers energy regeneration, and she also has alot of abilities that she can use no problem in a chain or more than once per fight, the apo needs level to keep up with the healing, the longer the match the higher is the damage, the more the apo needs to heal to stay relevant in the match.

That said, the + energy is to keep the apo able to combo up stims, vials and heal or any combination with the bolter, currently I see maybe 1 build viable with stims but everytime I have played it, it was without sinergy and quite useless with close to no-impact on the game compared with his other builds, the +hp is for the same reason, again, the longer the game goes the more the dps goes up, and stims is a T2 wargear so it should make the apo be able to keep up with T2 stuff/early T3, and why remove the supression immunity? Because that is only actually useful against shees and tics, and SM has already alot of ways to deal with them, don't come to me saying you run vs 2 setup teams with stims,asm and veil, that's a HUGE waste of resources that leaves you open for rape against better supported or more specialized late game infantry, 2 or even 3 setup teams can be easily and better be dealt by 1 or 2 asm if you like that + 1 vehicle, in a way more cost efficient and future-proof build aswell as putting more pressure on your opponent with the need to purchase av rather than just infantry counters.

[Sub_Zero]

The point is that a buffed unit by the Apo doesn't make an impact, you don't need to do anything to counter that simply because the damage bonus is not significant, you don't even bother. While a debuffed by either of those 2 heroes unit gets into a serious trouble and it does make a huge impact on fights. You can remove out of play the key unit of your opponent. And it is over the top really. The thing I call overpowered. How do you feel about my suggestion to reduce effectivness of those abilities twice? Here the point still stand. Every unit in your army can do that improved damage. 50% damage taken debuff to 25% damage taken debuff, 40% damage taken debuff to 20% damage taken debuff. It is still a lot if you consider that every unit in your army benefti from that and it will still do an impact on fights but a lesser one and more adequate (not an insta retreat). I mentioned before that besides the abilities those items themselves provide better benefits than the apo's armor. If nothing changes in terms of performance then I might raise a question about their costs being too low.

[Torpid]

I really dislike the idea that stims should improve his energy/energy regen.

[Forestradio]

The point is that a buffed unit by the Apo doesn't make an impact, you don't need to do anything to counter that simply because the damage bonus is not significant, you don't even bother. While a debuffed by either of those 2 heroes unit gets into a serious trouble and it does make a huge impact on fights. You can remove out of play the key unit of your opponent. And it is over the top really. The thing I call overpowered. How do you feel about my suggestion to reduce effectivness of those abilities twice? Here the point still stand. Every unit in your army can do that improved damage. 50% damage taken debuff to 25% damage taken debuff, 40% damage taken debuff to 20% damage taken debuff. It is still a lot if you consider that every unit in your army benefti from that and it will still do an impact on fights but a lesser one and more adequate (not an insta retreat). I mentioned before that besides the abilities those items themselves provide better benefits than the apo's armor. If nothing changes in terms of performance then I might raise a question about their costs being too low.

If you feel that those damage debuffs are overpowered, then make a thread about it. The idea is so that everything is balanced, not that everything is overpowered.

"The abilities those items themselves provide are better benefits than the apo's armor"

Maybe because they are on different heroes and different heroes are supposed to work differently?

[Black Relic]

I really dislike the idea that stims should improve his energy/energy regen.

+8000

The reason why people are questioning this wargear is the ability not the armor. NO ENERGY REGEN.!

[Sub_Zero]

The idea was to compare them and specify the weakest one. That is why I didn't create a new thread. And your second message says that it doesn't matter that wargear cost comparable amount of resources, fulfil relatively the same role and yet two of them are incredibly strong while the other one is lackluster.

[Torpid]

And your second message says that it doesn't matter that wargear cost comparable amount of resources, fulfil relatively the same role and yet two of them are incredibly strong while the other one is lackluster.

No, it doesn't, the game is more complicated than that.

The furthest I would want to go with a stim buff is simply to make it buff the apo's hp/melee damage by around 10%. That's it. I actually have been using the libby a lot recently and he's really good, but I've not being playing apo, I will try and go out of my way to get some stim play and upload some decent games of it to GR.

[Tex]

Please link those replays into my balance thread while you are at it. I won't be able to do any gaming until late this month.

[Atlas]

Like I mentioned in the Artificer Armor thread, I think the wargear is fine. I've played some apo and while I like to go for the othe two armors, it's not like this armor doesn't do what it needs to do. It's essentially a buff on demand with a roster that aleady has a lot of buffs anyway. If anything, maybe toning down the speed increase of AotA a little, but that's a different subject on Apo Balance.

[jwsoul]

A simple 100 maybe 150 Health Buff on the Armour. To help bring the APOC into a even more Close combat role.

[Forestradio]

Been using combat stims a lot recently, they are fine.

Use them on libby for smite and a fantastic counter initiation unit or a quick tie up on an infantry ranged squad, use them on missile tacs for excellent anti vehicle, use them with sternguard rounds for anti-all, use them on ASM for an unstoppable stomping force because your enemy spends most of the time on the ground anyway (esp with purificaiton rites).

The possibilities are limitless really.

[Black Relic]

use them with sternguard rounds for anti-all

That. Sounds. Epic. Never thought of that. Lol to me.

[ThongSong]

combat stims on pdevs is always fun.