Suggestion: Make Whirlwind into a Razorback upgrade

[L0thar]

My reasoning:

Razorback is an awesome unit, no question asked, and it has great T2 impact. However I see its utility greatly decreased come T3, where it can die in second (in case it ever lives so long). Moreover one of its important role - reinforcement - overlaps with LRC (edit:LRR).

Whirlwind on the other hand...I really like its concept (constant disruption is awesome!), but the execution lacks...something. Its hardly affordable in T2, but it can really shine in massive T3 battles (especially in 3v3), so I try to get it as often as I can at that point.

That got me thinking, why not make the transition to Whirlwind more accessible? I think making it a Razorback upgrade would accomplish exactly that.

Any thoughts?

[Orkfaeller]

LRC

LRR
___________________

What would that mean for the Razorbacks Armour Upgrade and its smoke shell?

[L0thar]

Yep, LRR, my bad.

As for the smoke shell and armour upgrade, or cost of the WW upgrade for that matter - I'm open for any ideas.

My take:

The smoke shell and armour upgrage would be lost upon transformation to WW (possibly even making the armour and WW upgrade mutually exclusive, if need be).

The cost of the upgrade itself should be low. Currently there is 10 power difference between RB and WW, that should be a good start.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

leave them? it would give the ww some survivability. the reinforcement is really the bigger question. might work if it stayed.

[Forestradio]

The whirlwind is awful in anything other than team games and it will remain awful until the missiles actually hit where you target them with any sort of accuracy.

[sk4zi]

the whirlwind reinfoces atm.

The whirlwind is awful in anything other than team games and it will remain awful until the missiles actually hit where you target them with any sort of accuracy.

thus it doesnt knock back allied units ist just pure awesome.

[Magus Magi]

I sort of like this idea. It would be interesting to see in execution. The math would be interesting to figure out too. How much for the upgrade? Keep the smoke? Lost it? Keep the reinforce? Lose it?

It would really change what the razorback is.

On a totally different note. I support Radio the Forest. It would be nicer to see either a tighter spread on the WW (more conservative option), or slightly larger diameter AOE.

The theory behind the WW makes a great deal of sense to me, SM core inf. are always in need of supportive force multipliers to face down larger armies (nids/orks/etc). The WW seems to me like an effort to expand their options for accomplishing that task, but as with so many things, reliability makes all the difference. Caeltos has already implemented changes to help the WW (increased projectile aoe and speed), so he clearly recognizes the issue. Personally, I think it needs just a little bit more. But that's just me.

The librarian might also help fill that role...(see my "force push" idea in the Libby thread).

[Orkfaeller]

On a totally different note. I support Radio the Forest. It would be nicer to see either a tighter spread on the WW (more conservative option), or slightly larger diameter AOE.

I think spread and AOE are pretty okey; someone suggested that basically one rocket should allways hit the unit/spot you're targeting, and the other five should just scatter, like they are allready doing.

Whatever; WW should definatly not reinforce or transport units.

[L0thar]

Well, my initial idea was to change the WW as little as possible, but make it more accessible (while also allowing the RB better T3 scaling).

I really can't imagine WW keeping the reinforcements and transport...I think that job is done well by RB and LRR and it should stay that way.

As for tighter spread, that's a tricky issue. Just a little too much and it would counter melee knockable infantry too hard, I'm afraid. I like how it synergize with Scout's blast and similar abilities, I don't want the WW to completely overshadow them.

If I were to buff WW in any way, I would add a second rocket option, in addition to the AV rocket. This one would stun units in selected area. Obvious balance concerns (size of the area, range, cooldown, etc) arise, I know. But why stun? Because it can affect some unknockable targets, which would broaden the WW's role.

[Broodwich]

I think the WW is pretty good as is. You shouldnt be using it at max range during a big engagement, its accuracy is great up closer. Max range is for being annoying to a dug in enemy and making them come to you. Its also great for recon by fire since you can just ground attack an area and anything hit by it will show up. It is of course vulnerable to camoed av units but unless a hardcore flank is going on it is really hard to kill. Unlike the manticore it can sorta defend itself from a head on attack

[Lulgrim]

the whirlwind reinfoces atm.

Lol wat

[Orkfaeller]

God damnit, you actually made me go and test it, and no, no it doesnt. :l

[Forestradio]

I wouldn't mind an "alternate firing mode" for the whirlwind that makes it shoot less missiles that don't do knockback but instead do a flame damage DoT on the ground where they hit for a short time (5 s).

Hellfury/promethium missiles or whatever.

[Atlas]

I'm really torn between liking it and hating it.

On the one hand, the WW and the Razor both scale on opposite ends. The Razor is good T2 bad T3 and the WW is less T2 and more T3. Making it an upgrade to Razor would really help pop cap and cost wise.

On the other hand, idk about all the weird sidegrading that SM is getting. Is there really a reason to be doing this? Does SM really need a more viable Razor/WW?

[Bahamut]

On the other hand, idk about all the weird sidegrading that SM is getting. Is there really a reason to be doing this? Does SM really need a more viable Razor/WW?

welcome to dow2. about 95% of the purchases you do to SM are sidegrades, that's their concept

[sk4zi]

lol i really reinforced of it in a 3v3, but maybe there was something else around or it was a bug.

[Tex]

The razor back is already the best overall choice that SM can make in T2. Let's not make SM play even less diverse by making it an even better choice please.

[Cyris]

The razor back is already the best overall choice that SM can make in T2. Let's not make SM play even less diverse by making it an even better choice please.

Yeah, good point. The problem with WW is that is bad in 1v1 and especially bad if you don't have a mostly full army. Adding an upgrade to razor doesn't fix either of these arras of weakness, but does make the razor stronger!

[L0thar]

The razor back is already the best overall choice that SM can make in T2. Let's not make SM play even less diverse by making it an even better choice please.

Yeah, good point. The problem with WW is that is bad in 1v1 and especially bad if you don't have a mostly full army. Adding an upgrade to razor doesn't fix either of these arras of weakness, but does make the razor stronger!

Actually it does a little. You usually don't buy the WW because you can't afford the full cost while maintaining your whole army. Making it a (cheap) RB upgrade would help with exactly this problem.

The razor back is already the best overall choice that SM can make in T2. Let's not make SM play even less diverse by making it an even better choice please.

I understand where you coming from, but I don't think people would choose RB over other T2 units just because they can later turn it into WW.

If you want RB, you get RB. If you want libby or dread for some reason, you get them instead. I don't think players would suddenly go "I want libby but I'll get the RB because I can at some point turn it into WW".

I believe this upgrade would make SM play more diverse - less dead (weight) RB and more WW in late game.


(sidetracking) But your point got me thinking if some changes should be made to SM T2. If RB is such a dominant choice, maybe some RB nerf and/or libby/dread/pdevs buffs would help to diversify SM gameplay. I'd say pdevs are fine, if a little onedimensional, so nerfing the RB damage, tweaking libby a little and making DoT for dreads better to help with T3 scaling would go a long way.

[Raffa]

The razor back is already the best overall choice that SM can make in T2. Let's not make SM play even less diverse by making it an even better choice please.

Yeah, good point. The problem with WW is that is bad in 1v1 and especially bad if you don't have a mostly full army. Adding an upgrade to razor doesn't fix either of these arras of weakness, but does make the razor stronger!

Actually it does a little. You usually don't buy the WW because you can't afford the full cost while maintaining your whole army. Making it a (cheap) RB upgrade would help with exactly this problem.

The razor back is already the best overall choice that SM can make in T2. Let's not make SM play even less diverse by making it an even better choice please.

I understand where you coming from, but I don't think people would choose RB over other T2 units just because they can later turn it into WW.

If you want RB, you get RB. If you want libby or dread for some reason, you get them instead. I don't think players would suddenly go "I want libby but I'll get the RB because I can at some point turn it into WW".

I believe this upgrade would make SM play more diverse - less dead (weight) RB and more WW in late game.


(sidetracking) But your point got me thinking if some changes should be made to SM T2. If RB is such a dominant choice, maybe some RB nerf and/or libby/dread/pdevs buffs would help to diversify SM gameplay. I'd say pdevs are fine, if a little onedimensional, so nerfing the RB damage, tweaking libby a little and making DoT for dreads better to help with T3 scaling would go a long way.

It's not always about improving a race, making "SM play more diverse", etc...

No rad changes for SM please.

[L0thar]

Diverse gameplay is a good thing, Raffa.

Chaos was already pretty strong in retail, yet in Elite bunch of units were added and some old units nerfed - to diversify gameplay.

Tyranids are damn strong at the moment, yet you suggested buff to acid splatter, making more RA builds viable, therefore diversify gameplay.

So...why is that problem again?

[Magus Magi]

^

Diverse gameplay, and dynamic gameplay, are both features of a well designed game.

"It's good enough as it is..." is the sort of mentality that led to DoWII to have the problems it did.

SM as a faction have a lot of clunkiness to them. The same topics just keep coming up on these forums:

(1) The librarian
(2) The WW
(3) Terminators

etc...etc...

Moreover, these problems have been tacitly, and sometimes explicitly, acknowledged by the dev. team in the form of substantive gameplay changes and forum posts (libby ranged damage increase on staff, damage increase for WW, missile speed increase for WW, missile aoe increase for WW, proposed terminator changes moving forward, terminator reinforce costs, etc.).

I still don't think the libby is where he should be, and I definitely don't think the WW is. If this game really is meant to be balanced around 1v1 the WW still needs help. Maybe chaining it to the Razorback, and allowing that switch in tier 3, would solve the problem.

We will only know if we test it...

[Raffa]

Diverse gameplay is a good thing, Raffa.

Diverse gameplay, and dynamic gameplay, are both features of a well designed game.

I never said it wasn't, and I'm certainly not against adding more diversity to the game - the irony being your suggestion makes SM play less diverse by shoehorning two units into one. Don't like having to repeat that since it's already been said:

The razor back is already the best overall choice that SM can make in T2. Let's not make SM play even less diverse by making it an even better choice please.

The fact that you guys think making WW a razorback upgrade would "diversify gameplay" makes me wonder how much you really understand about your own suggestion

Tyranids are damn strong at the moment, yet you suggested buff to acid splatter, making more RA builds viable, therefore diversify gameplay.

That's not a fact, actually I disagree completely. The Lictor Alpha is damn strong in too many matchups, not Tyranids as a whole.

[Magus Magi]

I think the principle at work here is that a razorback is a strong purchase in tier 2, but not in tier 3. While the WW is better in later stages of the game, when the SM player has fleshed out his/her army.

Making the WW an affordable razorback upgrade would allow you to purchase the razorback for tier 2 play before transforming it into a WW for tier 3 support of your core army.

You may be right that SM diversity is unaffected since both units remain accessible, but it does make for more dynamic play and incentivizes the eventual inclusion of WWs in the SM army comp.

I continue to support new ideas for changing and improving gameplay. Even if this didn't really work, it's not that radical an idea, and it never hurts to playtest.

[L0thar]

Diverse gameplay is a good thing, Raffa.

Diverse gameplay, and dynamic gameplay, are both features of a well designed game.

I never said it wasn't, and I'm certainly not against adding more diversity to the game - the irony being your suggestion makes SM play less diverse by shoehorning two units into one. Don't like having to repeat that since it's already been said:

The razor back is already the best overall choice that SM can make in T2. Let's not make SM play even less diverse by making it an even better choice please.

The fact that you guys think making WW a razorback upgrade would "diversify gameplay" makes me wonder how much you really understand about your own suggestion

Tyranids are damn strong at the moment, yet you suggested buff to acid splatter, making more RA builds viable, therefore diversify gameplay.

That's not a fact, actually I disagree completely. The Lictor Alpha is damn strong in too many matchups, not Tyranids as a whole.

I already addressed Tex's concern in my previous post with arguments you completely skipped. Not much to discuss if you'll keep just repeating the original concern. But as you wish, let's agree to disagree then.

As for Tyranids - feel free to start your own thread to see how people feel about it. I'm sure Elite dev(s) would appreciate the feedback and maybe some LA nerfs and general Tyranids buffs/tweaks could come out of it. That's what these forum are for, right?

I think the principle at work here is that a razorback is a strong purchase in tier 2, but not in tier 3. While the WW is better in later stages of the game, when the SM player has fleshed out his/her army.

Making the WW an affordable razorback upgrade would allow you to purchase the razorback for tier 2 play before transforming it into a WW for tier 3 support of your core army.

You may be right that SM diversity is unaffected since both units remain accessible, but it does make for more dynamic play and incentivizes the eventual inclusion of WWs in the SM army comp.

I continue to support new ideas for changing and improving gameplay. Even if this didn't really work, it's not that radical an idea, and it never hurts to playtest.

Yes, that's the idea behind it!

I'm not saying this should be put in the game immediately without testing, but it seemed (to me) reasonable enough to at least try it and test it. If it indeed wouldn't work, well, that's life.

[Dark Riku]

lol i really reinforced of it in a 3v3,

No, you really didn't.

I never said it wasn't, and I'm certainly not against adding more diversity to the game - the irony being your suggestion makes SM play less diverse by shoehorning two units into one. Don't like having to repeat that since it's already been said

How does it make it less diverse? °_O Don't repeat wrong stuff then :p

The fact that you guys think making WW a razorback upgrade would "diversify gameplay" makes me wonder how much you really understand about your own suggestion

And this makes me wonder how much you understand.

That's not a fact, actually I disagree completely. The Lictor Alpha is damn strong in too many matchups, not Tyranids as a whole.

And I disagree completely with this.
The Tyranids as a whole are very damn strong in almost any MU.

[Unconscious]

I think it would be worth trying Whirlwind as a t3 upgrade.

T2 generally has better choices anyway, plas, Lib, Dread all being used often. In most cases, we would pick a razor back over a WW.

A t3 upgrade would be interesting, and create some different scenarios.
Something I'd love to see is the LRR getting Lascannon upgrades, or further, the Helios upgrade

[sk4zi]

moving the ww to T3 would be a nerf.

i very often get it in T2 especially with the TM since he has the beacon and doesnt need the transport reinforce.

for stationary play, stuck in tier 2 games or versus big blobs its just a very good purchase ... not so much in 1v1 but in teamgames.

so actually i dont dislike the idea to make it an upgrade but plz not far later in T3

[Dark Riku]

moving the ww to T3 would be a nerf.

That's also not what is being suggested ^^

[Unconscious]

Can you please explain exactly how moving the WW to T3 would be a nerf?

Another thing.

What about having the WW in T2, but also as an upgrade in T3 for the razorback? More options? This is what the post started as a means for right?

Some other minor changes aside I found looking in the BA Codex:

Smoke launchers
Additional Storm bolter
Extra armour
Dozer blade (From the model vindicator).. but dont know what its function would be
Hunter killer missile (as a model that attaches to the hull side like it should?)

Some of those upgrades for a Razorback would be awesome too
As well as what Razor backs get in the Codex as options

Twin linked Assault cannon
Twin linked Las cannon
Las Cannon plasma gun
Heavy Flamer
___________
For the record I am not keen on the way it functions, because you need strong convergences between your army and the unit for it to be very effective. Not noob friendly. It has to be about 50% closer to the front lines than the manticore, and also pretty much needs supporting infantry to make any difference at all.

In the Codex the WW operates very similar to a Manticore, however the WW is a range of 12-48 inches, Manticore is 24-120 inches. They were designed as low armour mobile artillery pieces that sit behind cover or something like a Land Raider.

The way something with missiles like a whirlwind typically fires is upwards into the sky and then they fall down. The Cyclone missile launcher, and Land speeder typhoon missile launcher is how the WW fires in the mod.

If someone does a mod test on that I would be interested in trying it out. The accurate barrage could make for some builds where you dont need ASMs. Basically just like the IG artillery spotter which does work and synchronize well.

_____
Speaking of Land Raider If we also got the WW on the Helios , losing the heavy bolter and transport capacity, for what, 100/25 this could make for a slightly different sm build and fun.

These small changes could make a nice artillery army composition.