How to counter best Vehicles with Chaos?

[sk4zi]

hey there,

i feel i have a real noob question but i really have problems here many times.
TCSM do barely any damage to vehicles. Heretics dont anyway..
most of the heroes also cant purchase a wheapon which does AV damage.

so actually Havocs are the only guys who can damage vehicles with an upgrade but you loose there very good supression then and make them in fact a total different unit as is with all the other setup teams.

i appreciate that most of the other Races also dont have T1 Squads which can just upgrade to an AV squad like SM Tacticals are but at least they almost all have a quite (power-) cheap way to put AV on the field.

SM have almost every squad being able to upgrade to some AV
IG can easily field Storm troopers
Orks have Tankbustas
Tyranids the Venom Brood
Eldar can at least do damage to vehicles with their heroes and Shees and have also the Haywire which is superior to most of the other mines.
even Grey Knights have the Psycannons which do at least damage to vehicles.
also they have nowadays the Assasin and soon there will be the new rhino - or actually its there allready.

all of theese races have even more stuff needing more efford to field like walkers or snare stuff etc.

despite the havocs chaos can´t field anything cheap to deal with vehicles.
Chaos can Field the awesome Tzeentch Dread and Plaquemarines.
although theese are both very good units they are very often not effordable - especially versus vehicle rushes.
there is just no way to upgrade some agile units from T1 or field a senseful unit to effectively counter a vehicle if chaos is behind in tech or the power income is weak.

former Times Tzeentch bolters and Bloodletters were fulfilling this light AV damage role - or even not light - and maybe it was too strong. also my early estimate about the Bloodletters was wrong - they are still very strong - but still i think they fulfilled a very important role in the chaos army as way to field AV with good other purposes and this role doesnt exist any more in the chaos army.
there is just dedicated AV with poor utility vs infantery or dedicated anti infantery with poor AV capabilitys.

chaos allways was lagging an anti Vehicle mine like thing but it was ok because of the raw damage they were able to put out now whithout that damage i really think chaos lacks a 3rd unit which is dedicated av with some utility.


so question at the topic:

what do you do with chaos vs:

- Leman Russ Spam
- Early Def Dreads
- Chimeras
- Bandeblade
- Swarmlord

i really would apreciate to get some tips here.

[Orkfaeller]

Code: Select all

despite the havocs chaos can´t field anything cheap to deal with vehicles.
Chaos can Field the awesome Tzeentch Dread and Plaquemarines.
although theese are both very good units they are very often not effordable - especially versus vehicle rushes.

Blood Crusher? One of the earliest and fastest vehicles in the game?

there is just dedicated AV with poor utility vs infantery or dedicated anti infantery with poor AV capabilitys.

And where would you put the AutoCannon?

i appreciate that most of the other Races also dont have T1 Squads which can just upgrade to an AV squad

Mark of Khorne Marines get a Melta Gun, it wont take on a Dread, but it deals enough damage to run down a transport.

I feel like you're not even concidering half the AV Options Chaos has.

[sk4zi]

so you mean i should build bloodcrushers, autocannons, and MOK CSM versus a baneblade?

i feel like you read only half of my post.

i dont think that you suggestion is run after a chimera with MOK CSM

i excludet the bloodcrusher because its a not really a vehicle which can be built to have AV on the field. its chase potentials are quite limited and its really vulnerable to other early t2 stuff.

its a good thing, no point. but i NEVER would build it if i need quick av against the mentioned things in my first post.
is this a mistake?

sorry if this sounds unkind, but i feel like i postet a reasoned question and got a flame...


p.s. i forgot:

[
And where would you put the AutoCannon?

there:

so actually Havocs are the only guys who can damage vehicles with an upgrade but you loose there very good supression then and make them in fact a total different unit as is with all the other setup teams.

edit2: also the BC is not the "chaep" AV i am asking for

[Spartan717]

Raptors are good vs vehicles as well, especially when upgraded with melta guns.

[Primitive]

vs a baneblade ? why not use the GUO or just a phobos, sure u have no t1 unit that just can upgrade to av easy but u have tons of specialised units that really do their job .... i saw people killing a baneblade in melee with just the plaguechamp+1 kcsm squad

[Raffa]

The Baneblade is unique in that it counters most of its counters, hence it is practically unbeatable when supported by a complementing IG army.

The Phobos is your best bet as Chaos since you don't have hard-hitting heavy melee.

For my money Plague Marines are just an awesome AV unit, with no setup and a snare to makes them excellent chasers and very hard counters to melee dreadnoughts. The downside is their cost is still unreflective of their performance (450/40...seriously?) as their death explosion is nearly useless but still factored in. Buy them if resources make it appropriate, e.g. excess of req and not enough power, otherwise buy/upgrade havocs with a lascannon to deal with vehicles.

In T3 Raptors are good with meltaguns and are the bane of battle tanks, downside being you don't buy them lategame, just upgrade to them.

Chaos is dreadnought reliant (except for the CL who can support Bloodcrushers so well with worship) - against Wraithlords and upgraded GK dreadnoughts you want MoK, otherwise MoT. Never buy a hugbot against FC, it's suicide.

Although I agree Chaos has problems dealing with dreadnoughts. Though this is because of the inflated cost of Plague Marines - the solution already exists, it's just not in a great spot.

[Dark Riku]

As Chaos you have AV in T2 everywhere.
Even Blood Letter with their high power melee help a ton.


Leman Russ: you prolly have your own tank, phobos or guo out.
pared up with anything you want. lascannon havocs would prolly be the best.

Def dread, chimera: bc, pm's, lascannon.
An autocannon is never bad vs these units/races either.

Swarmlord: like any other walker you want snares. PM's, lascannon.
Combined with your pred or other T3 stuff.

Baneblade: Use your GUO to tank and deal dmg with whatver av source you want.
This is most likely a teamgame scenario. Look at your teammate to help bring it down.

[BaptismByLoli]

BaneBlade
-------------
One of the easiest way I can think off to counter a Baneblade is to just drive off its support, basically leaving the BB isolated and using Havoks or Plauge Marines snare it... This would be later followed up with some punishing AV like PC Plague Fist, Rear Hit Bloodcrusher, Termie Autocannons, MoT Dread and so on..

Basically rather than trying to take it head on, make your army focus on getting rid of the BB's support and use your lascannons and PM's to get the BB into position for the rest of your AV to take it out or at the least, make it unusable due to heavy repairs... And of course do all of this under worship and especially with that Chaos Lord's Global that buffs unit damage when entering melee (Blood Frenzy/Lust?)

Early Def Dread & Chimera
----------------------------------
Bloodcrusher (under worship)

Leman Russ Spam
---------------------
LRP or MoT Predator with some Melta Raptors to put pressure and screw with the pathing of a Leman trying to back the hell up or PM to snare them and make life easy for the rest of your AV.. Take them out 1 by 1 starting with Leman Russ that can hard counter your strongest AV...

Swarmlord
--------------
Can't offer any tips there =p since their usually surrounded by their BFF's ( Carnifex ). Try to get a GUO to soak up the damage and attention while having maybe 1 or 2 MoT Preds take potshots at them... DONT use Dreads, Havoks, PMs or Terminators against a heavy T3 Nid unless its to snare them down since none of those guys can effectively kite a walking monster and still deal damage with the exception of a predator (shift click )

[Lichtbringer]

so you mean i should build bloodcrushers, autocannons, and MOK CSM versus a baneblade?

i feel like you read only half of my post.

i dont think that you suggestion is run after a chimera with MOK CSM

i excludet the bloodcrusher because its a not really a vehicle which can be built to have AV on the field. its chase potentials are quite limited and its really vulnerable to other early t2 stuff.

its a good thing, no point. but i NEVER would build it if i need quick av against the mentioned things in my first post.
is this a mistake?

sorry if this sounds unkind, but i feel like i postet a reasoned question and got a flame... [...]

well... you ask about soft AV options, and then if someone tells you what they are... you say they can't beat a Baneblade^^

[Nurland]

MoK CSM are pretty effective against transports...

Anyway Binbleed is a bitch to deal with. As is Lemon Ross spam. Vanquisher lemans just eat Tpreds for breakfast as they outrange them, have significantly higher hp pool coupled with IG's great repair support. Against BB maybe lascannon/autocannon/assblaster at max range with some more hard hitting av and GUO tanking damage and disrupting support.
Against LRs plague morons, melta raptors and whatever highish dps av you can muster; tanks, dreads, termies, preds, phobos, guo... Try to snipe them 1 by 1.

You make Blood Crusher sound like an unviable and shitty unit, which it isn't. Worshipped BC can handle itself pretty nicely. BC isn't super quick AV due to its build time which is longer than a dreadnought's. But it is fairly cheap so you can field one quite fast. Against a Deff BC most certainly is viable.

chaos allways was lagging an anti Vehicle mine like thing but it was ok because of the raw damage they were able to put out now whithout that damage i really think chaos lacks a 3rd unit which is dedicated av with some utility.

Well Raptors get the melta bomb in t3 and PM snare has been buffed in Elite. Not to mention Havoc Lascannon is very strong atm.

there is just no way to upgrade some agile units from T1 or field a senseful unit to effectively counter a vehicle if chaos is behind in tech or the power income is weak.

MoK Csm? Blastmaster? Lascannon/Autocannon Havocs? PMs?

[Broodwich]

PMs are pretty nice, I usually let one or two die without reinforcing them just cause you dont need them and it helps with popcap. Paired with other AV they are pretty great. Something to bait a tank or a dread in and then trap them with pms. Unless they get forced off they can help run down lots of stuff

[Atlas]

PMs are pretty nice, I usually let one or two die without reinforcing them just cause you dont need them and it helps with popcap. Paired with other AV they are pretty great. Something to bait a tank or a dread in and then trap them with pms. Unless they get forced off they can help run down lots of stuff

The whole not reinforcing squads seems like a very Chaos thing. Been hearing about it lightly on several threads. Maybe upkeep needs to be looked at.

[Broodwich]

Not really chaos specific, i use it on pretty much all my setup teams, snipers, spotters... Basically stuff where the ability is way more useful than what the other squad members contribute. In plague's case, they have a 3 guys who do fuck all and one guy with the real reason you got the squad for. Keeping one or two with him is a good idea for safety, but other than that you are better off spending those resources on other stuff

[Bahamut]

plague marines do inflict a DoT with their bolter and they slow enemy infantry on a radius

[Nurland]

I usually keep my PM at 3 or maybe 2 models except when I really need the extra survivability or I have a lots of extra resources. They are nice additional melee counter with the slow aura.

[sk4zi]

Godd Morning.

Tank you for all your posts.

yesterday i tryed the BC as AV against a Chim.
it did quite well but i was not really able to hunt it down.
at least forcing off worked.

also lategame Raptors killed a baneblade but only because it was stuck in a really tight passage (at garzweiler)

i never sayed that BC and PM are bad, but i ofent feel like i cant efford them.
BC because its usually not a long time purchase and PMs because there is often only one vehicle on the field (wartruckk e.g.)

but i will try that ...

i earlier tryed to get 2 PM even if i didnt see a vehicle but that turned out in a bad strategy imho.

[Nurland]

You should be able to afford either one of those 2 units pretty much as soon as you hit t2 if you have not constantly been on the losing side of the engagements. BC is a bit riskier in team games I'll give you that.

On a sidenote... If you don't wan't to give up the suppression of the Havoc, then don't. Just buy a second Havoc.

[Torpid]

Or a las-turret. Las-turrets are extremely underused, those things deal 330 damage per shot and the range of a fire prism. Combined with the instant suppression of the havoc and a blastmaster it's a very nice set-up. Just be wary of infiltration/long range ways of killing the turrets such as other artillery or tank bustas barrage or something similar.

Nurgle shrines accompanied by autocannon termies do a good job. They do equal damage as the havoc autocannon but are significantly more durable and a worshiping shrine heals them for 7% of their hp every 6 seconds making them very durable. with multiple shrines, blastmasters and autocannon termies it's quite an impenetrable fortress.

[Tex]

Las turret has fire prism range??? Wowza, I did not know that.

[Torpid]

All Lascannons do. I just prefer to say "it has the range of a fire prism" when referencing the range of the las-turret because it's not wrong, yet sounds that bit more impressive which may encourage people to protrude their head out of the shell that is the meta in the hopes of finding new ways to deal with problems that troubled them endlessly before.

[Nurland]

Nurgle shrines accompanied by autocannon termies do a good job. They do equal damage as the havoc autocannon

http://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php? ... cannon_csm

http://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php? ... terminator

Havoc autocannon is wayyyy stronger than Termie autocannon (roughly 85% more damage to vehicles and commanders and roughly 40% more damage to infantry).

Terminators ofc have other perks to compensate for that but still the damage output of those weapons is far from being identical.

[Torpid]

Oops, I forgot about the elite autocannon buffs. It does the same damage as the retail autocannon ignoring the additional reload time (which results in about a 3dps decrease, but only after already shooting 8 bursts).

I also didn't realise they didn't have the same damage type. Relying on other people for these statistics is so bad :l

[Nurland]

Yeah, Lulminator and dread autocannons have a different dmg type from other autocannons. There might be some other weapons also that use the same, inferior dmg type but can't remember them.

[Wise Windu]

There might be some other weapons also that use the same, inferior dmg type but can't remember them.

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... readnought

Here ya go.

Havoc does explosive damage.

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... cannon_csm

Just click on the damage type to see the other weapons with that damage type.

[Nurland]

Hmmm. Didn't know that. Thanks. I did know the stuff that does explosive but couldn't remember what the other stuff uses the autocannon damage type.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

One of the better things to do to counter IG vehicles is to beat off their supporting units. Funny enough, if you can also get into melee with a tank with something that hits hard (bloodletters, terms with fists, etc.), the minute the vehicle has to start going in reverse, you've got a significant advantage. Vehicles don't give you targeting when moving back, and thus often lose sight of what they are targeting. It's a primitive idea but it works because of the possibly overlooked targeting logic that is inherent with Dawn of War. Most players won't let a leman russ stand still if they're getting pummeled, so you can often have your AV units mop up a kill. Can't tell you how many times I've lost vehicles because they refused to hit the appropriate target when going in reversing.

So to clarify, ways you can push vehicle engagements to your liking vs IG is quickly focus down things like GM's and other units around the vehicle and then move in for the kill by overwhelming it.

[Maestro Cretella]

This is a subject I have a lot to say about, as it's a question that I have myself wrestled with a lot.

First of all, for the most part, your assessment of Chaos AV is not wrong. You may have missed a few things, but there is a lot of truth to the issues you bring up.

Chaos has the fewest hero AV options by far, generally has more expensive tier 2 AV options, and generally has more trouble upgrading tier 1 rosters to deal with AV in tier 2. Chaos heroes are often more vulnerable to vehicles than heroes of other races, and often have to make do with fewer sources of AV.

That last point is very noteworthy, because when non-Chaos players usually rebut complaints about Chaos AV difficulties, they are usually citing the effectiveness of individual sources of AV, without putting them into the context of army compositions.

Usually your tier 1 transitional AV unit is the havoc, and much of the answer to the Chaos AV question resides in this unit. It's why Chaos builds very, very frequently include them, more so than builds for other races include their own setup teams. It's also the reason why getting a build such as 2 tics, 1 csm, 1 raptor is so problematic, since it make your transition to tier 2 extremely risky with respect to dealing with vehicles. At 75 requisition to upgrade to a lascannon, it is far and away the most cost effective AV option that Chaos has.

I'm going to say it again more clearly: buy lascannon havocs. Didn't get a havoc in tier 1? Then buy it in tier 2. At 325-30, it's still your cheapest option, and it's outperforming plague marines for the purposes of AV because it does literally 4 times as much damage.

I know about the hesitancy to get a lascannon because giving up the heavy bolter is itself problematic, which leads players to feel the need to get a different unit entirely. Sometimes you need to give in to that hesitancy, think about different ways you can control your opponent without the heavy bolter, and you may actually be better for it. For the Sorcerer, this is one of the many reasons to get the chains of torment. The Plague Champion might want to try positioning himself towards units that need to be controlled, and hitting them with Pestilent Strike. The Chaos Lord might just want to be more proactive, and put the pressure on your opponent with a Lightning Claw and a squad of bloodletters or khorne marines. Another option, for any hero, is to get two havocs.

The autocannon havoc has been brought up, and there are things to say about it as well. If your concern is simply dealing with vehicles, the lascannon is unquestionably better. Giving up the heavy bolter, even for the autocannon, is going to negatively impact your ability to control your opponent, period. The autocannon is a compromise, and it is a choice you can make. Sometimes it will be good enough to deal with vehicles, and it definitely will deter the approach of a vehicle, even if it doesn't prevent escapes the way the lascannon does.

Since the bloodcrusher has been brought up, I want to make the point that not only are all sources of AV not equal, but they often have very different purposes and functions. I want to make a distinction between units that are clearly AV in the sense that they are likely to lead to vehicle kills, and units that simply happen to do AV damage. The lascannon havoc belongs to the first kind of unit. The bloodcrusher belongs to the second.

Now, clearly, if a unit does AV damage (and the bloodcrusher's is actually quite substantial), it can, under certain circumstances, be used to destroy a vehicle. The lascannon havoc on the other hand, is the kind of unit that actually creates those circumstances that can allow a bloodcrusher to help destroy a vehicle. Why? Because the bloodcrusher does melee damage, is likely to be kited, and since it is a vehicle itself, carries enormous risk if overextended. The havoc is ranged, snares, and can be retreated at relatively low risk.

That being said, although you're realistically not going to take out a vehicle if all you have for AV is a bloodcrusher, it's still better than having nothing. Simply the positioning of your bloodcrusher, because it can do AV damage, can be enough to deter your opponent's vehicle from overrunning you and forcing you off the field, even if you never actually damage or take your opponent's vehicle out. Sometimes when we think of vehicles and AV, we got locked into the mindset of feeling the need to destroy the vehicle, which, while ideal, is not always necessary to stay in the game or win.

Sometimes you also need to look slightly outside the question of "What do I use for AV?" One thing I briefly touched on when I talked about how to deal with giving up havoc suppression, is using hero specific abilities in combination with AV units. This goes into the question of how you use your AV units and getting the most out of fewer AV units. With the sorcerer, this frequently involves using the sigil of the rift and the warp global to teleport your AV units into extremely advantageous positions. A more commonly known tactic is using Tzeentch infiltration to hide AV units. With the Chaos Lord, I remember watching the tournament match between Manisz and HolyHammer, in which Manisz used Khorne speed worship to kite a Deff Dread with Plague Marines, would which otherwise just get tied up without that support.

There is more I could say on the subject of Chaos AV, but this is all I have time for at the moment.

[Tex]

As always Maestro, your comments are so well thought out and in my opinion, very accurate.

Summarily speaking, I 100% agree with you that chaos would be ranked last in the departments of transitional AV and in hero AV.