Patch 2.3 Balance changelog

[Torpid]

They do 34dps piercing right now and are fine? I think the loss of 12dps overall for a gain of 1.0 regen is a pretty chunky buff. The CD increase isn't that big of a deal anyway since spamming termies is kinda silly and can only really happen in 3v3 anyway.

[fankater]

General
- Burst duration from 0 to 2 and cooldown from 0.7 to 1.0 to give more direct visual indication that the squad has been upgraded to PsyBolts

Why not just use eldar skuriken catapults bullet fx ?

[Arbit]

So you'll look for other alternatives, which would be more beneficial and most importantly as well, something that fits alongside the Nurgle theme.

Or an AoE very small DoT affecting enemy units in worship range.

Genius. So simple. How come I never thought of this before? Keep the stress on very small.

Plasma damage type so it's not totally balls-ass against HI armour or OTT against massed light infantry. Just a little tickler that makes it a bit more risky to engage units in Nurgle Worship range.

Oh, and it fits the Nurgle theme perfectly.

I think this would be difficult to balance. Consider:
Unless the radius is simply ginormous, a ranged army will start gunning down the tics without ever being hit by the DoT. Maybe it will just be used against melee, but consider the opportunity cost of tic worship - when they're worshiping, they're not in combat. If you're trying to counter sluggas or ASM, I think in almost all instances you would rather have your tics participating in combat rather than contributing a small regen + DoT. The DoT basically has to compete with the heretic's ability to directly influence combat by fighting. Maybe if you have GL tics and you have ASM already in amongst your units you might leave them worshiping, but I think the GL tics would have more value attacking the ASM's support.

What if daemonic units projected a slowing/damaging aura when under the influence of tic worship? This way you could boost your BLT's/bloodcrusher's health regen and hinder your opponent's ability to kite at the same time.

re: SM terms vs GK terms
Caeltos said he had some nerfs in mind for GK terminators in the other thread, so it may be a bit early to fly off the handle.

[Ace of Swords]

They do 34dps piercing right now and are fine? I think the loss of 12dps overall for a gain of 1.0 regen is a pretty chunky buff. The CD increase isn't that big of a deal anyway since spamming termies is kinda silly and can only really happen in 3v3 anyway.

To be fair im not seeing how the hp regen is gonna help the ranged terminators, sure it works well with the melee version, but everything that rapes the ranged ones will rape them even more simply because they won't be able to outdamage them.

tl:dr i'd rather have them doing their job instead beign just a popcap/upkeep burden, their point is to bring damage to a very low dps race and get that inspiration up, this is more of a huge nerf than anything else.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

- I'd said it two times before. Please reconsider the Chaos Terminators melee/ranged damage values changes. The change is simply pointless. If you want to make Chaos Terminators a more melee oriented Terminator variant (which IMHO isn't a good idea, because already are a lot of melee squads in the Chaos army) there are other options. I said it, I don't want to see how my Chaos Terminators turns into a T3 version of no-mark AC EW CSM.

- It's going to suffer the same change the PC turret or it's exclusive of the Techmarine one?

- If Nurgle Worship is a Infantry centered Worship, why not make the Worship scale in T2 and T3? The existence of Nurgle Shrine and the minor HP regeneration buffs in Plague Marines and the new Terminators's one isn't a excuse. For that similar reasoning, why make Apo's heal stronger with Apo's lvls, when have the LRR healing aura or the Armour of Apotecarion Advance Healing ability?

- The Strike Squad Nemesis focus upgrade remove makes me sad. Ok, GK have a lot of melee squads, but we could keep Strike Squad as a melee debuffer squad.

- Is going to have the GK Dread a Multimelta upgrade?

[Phoenix]

How about nurgle worship giving a small health buff to vehicles? This could help vehicles chasing/escaping just as khorne and tzeentch worship do. Maybe 150-200 so you can shrug off that last missile hit to destroy x/escape.

[Indrid]

I don't think it's to make default termies more melee-orientated, it's to off-set the increased survivability with a little less DPS. Since if they are in the fight longer they will do more damage over the duration. Melee damage also buffed to compensate for the more risky and typically quicker melee fights.

[Forestradio]

Wait the Brother Captain doesn't have 70 melee skill?

I'm dead certain he does, he pulls off special attacks on banshees pretty often in T1.

[lolzarz]

To be fair im not seeing how the hp regen is gonna help the ranged terminators, sure it works well with the melee version, but everything that rapes the ranged ones will rape them even more simply because they won't be able to outdamage them.

tl:dr i'd rather have them doing their job instead beign just a popcap/upkeep burden, their point is to bring damage to a very low dps race and get that inspiration up, this is more of a huge nerf than anything else.

It's going to be incredibly difficult to rape them; 1500 health in Super-Heavy Infantry armor with 15 health regeneration per second per model. Throw in Apothecary aura and you get practically invincible units. I suppose you could use them to draw fire (read: suppressive fire) and let the other units do the killing; tactical space marine special weapons or even your own jump squads. Those deal some significant damage, not to mention the terminator special weapons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but assault squads deal 30 DPS per member. It isn't that bad.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

To be fair im not seeing how the hp regen is gonna help the ranged terminators, sure it works well with the melee version, but everything that rapes the ranged ones will rape them even more simply because they won't be able to outdamage them.

You still have your Army + Hero supporting the terminators at the front-lines,the HP regeneration greatly assist the terminators from losing Models . Their Survivability chances are Much better now,considering termies will reinforce 150/20 per model ,is it? Ensuring their survivability with lesser dps makes sense to me, their still Killy in all their goodness with great Support .

tl:dr i'd rather have them doing their job instead beign just a popcap/upkeep burden, their point is to bring damage to a very low dps race and get that inspiration up, this is more of a huge nerf than anything else.

You still be at 80/100 popcap , Terminators will now have more staying power in engagements either to demoralize or inspire surrounding allies so they fullfill their purpose longer on the battlefield without being forced off immediately by an Enormous blob of Range firepower. I nvr felt Termies become a burden,their there to soak damage and to counteract Nobz .

It's going to be incredibly difficult to rape them; 1500 health in Super-Heavy Infantry armor with 15 health regeneration per second per model. Throw in Apothecary aura and you get practically invincible units. I suppose you could use them to draw fire (read: suppressive fire) and let the other units do the killing; tactical space marine special weapons or even your own jump squads. Those deal some significant damage, not to mention the terminator special weapons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but assault squads deal 30 DPS per member. It isn't that bad.

Nothing is easy ,its fair play and there be tons of T3 Ellist like SC/Nobz/Genestealers and Vehicular onslaught with the entire Battalion of your Opponent's forces barreling down on the terminators like a Wave of Tsunami

ASM 30 dps per member shd be lv4 or 3,can't remember. But, interceptors dishes out slightly more.

[PhatE]

Eldar

Most excellent

[Flash]

Looking forward to playing with the changes. Will form opinions then.

Regarding the strike squad nemesis focus removal/energy burst buff. Will the cd for energy burst stay at 120 seconds then?

[Caeltos]

Regarding the strike squad nemesis focus removal/energy burst buff. Will the cd for energy burst stay at 120 seconds then?

Probably not, it'll most likely get reduced. But not to the low cd of Nemesis Focus

[lolzarz]

Caeltos, would it be overpowered to give the melee terminators (Assault Terminators, Chaos Terminators with lightning claws and both types of Grey Knights Terminators) 70 Melee Skill? I mean, they're elite melee units; they should have at least the same skill in melee than jump troops, which all have 70, with the obvious exception of Warp Spiders.

[Ar-Aamon]

They have already 70 Melee Skill.

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[sterling]

General
Cosmetics
* Added in Space Wolves
* Added in Deathskulls
* Added in Bloodaxes

Glad they made it in

Just out of interest do the other chapter packs (Templars, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels) work ok too? Are they just going to be implemented at a later date?

[Batpimp]

Any updates on the ravener changes you were mentioning? I can seriously say I have played about 50 games now as tyranids and have used them less than 3 times. It seems they jump and then have to insta retreat. Maybe we can add a squadleader or buff of some kind come t2 that helps with their durability? I have never even called them in using red as the ravener

Ravener hero: Could we see an increase to his burrowed speed? or maybe a good stun? I cant seem to ever make it worthwhile to get this armor.

I also agree with the others that the zoan and TG are kind of cheaply priced. At the same time in find them immensely useful though. Not sure how much of a change I would recommend.

[Caeltos]

General
Cosmetics
* Added in Space Wolves
* Added in Deathskulls
* Added in Bloodaxes

Glad they made it in

Just out of interest do the other chapter packs (Templars, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels) work ok too? Are they just going to be implemented at a later date?

I'd like to see them all added, but I'm not familliar with how long it takes to implement them. Hench, I just haven't mentioned them.

[sterling]

Cool no worries, I guess if those ones work then the others should too. Tt is a pretty time consuming and tedious process to add them in though

[Dark Riku]

It seems they jump and then have to insta retreat.

This is more a learn how to use them properly problem than anything else I think.

Maybe we can add a squadleader or buff of some kind come t2 that helps with their durability?

What would you say any kind of synapse is then?

I have never even called them in using red as the ravener

Well, you really should use it. You can call them in when you assault an entrenched position. Don't reinforce your units as they will instantly reinforce for free.
You can even use it for the reinforcement alone if need be.

[lolzarz]

They have already 70 Melee Skill.

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They aren't. Check the Codex.

[Dark Riku]

They have already 70 Melee Skill.

They aren't. Check the Codex.

They are. Check the game files and, or the 2.2 beta 9 changelog.

[Raffa]

* Brother Captain melee skill increased from 60 to 70
* Stormtrooper Sergeant cost increased from 65/15 to 65/25
* Stormtrooper Sergeant no longer grants bonus movement speed bonus to the squad
* Stormtrooper mines upgrade has been removed and is now granted by the Sergeant instead
* Strike Squad ranged damage modifer from level increased from 1.0|1.05|1.10|0.16 to the following; 1.0|1.07|1.14|1.20|
* Nemesis Focus on Strike Squad has been removed and replaced by Psybolts Ammunition
- Now improves the ranged damage of the squad by 20% and changes the Justicar damage from piercing_pvp to plasma_pvp
- Burst duration from 0 to 2 and cooldown from 0.7 to 1.0 to give more direct visual indication that the squad has been upgraded to PsyBolts
* Energy Burst slow effect increased from 50% movement speed to 80%

Brother-Captain change is overdue, but good to see anyway.

The Stormtrooper tweaks are pretty rad, but 3x GL+sarge stormtroopers are a wrecking ball on lane-based maps so these changes are very welcome. Especially the Sarge cost coming in line with other detectors so he's not just an auto-buy anymore - he was giving waaay too much for 15 power with the extra damage on all ranged weapons, detection and ofc his mighty peashooter pistol.

What I like the look of most in this patch are the SS changes though. For such an expensive unit they are tailing off far too much lategame and I just wonder if psybolts could be the solution? Combined with the increased levelling bonuses the SS will certainly have more utility as combat units lategame, and maybe their psycannon can actually start being soft AV rather than tickle-soft AV. Add in the Energy Burst bonus to counter melee units and yep, we have one nice utility unit on our hands.

These are clearly very carefully thought out changes to Stormtroopers and SS, and now I've had some time to digest them I'm very positive about the direction GK are taking.

* Feeder Tendril cost adjusted from 110/25 to 100/30
* Toxic Miasma (LA) cost reduced from 120/25 to 100/20
* Adrenal Gland (LA) removed energy regeneration bonus and replaced it with health regeneration bonus of 0.15
* Scythe now deals 10 melee damage ontop of it's existing effects in radius 10

How to balance the LA? It's probably never going to be properly balanced and whatever cost you slap on Feeder Tendrils there's still an angle that makes it look wrong. But this is certainly better. And man you really want people to start using Scything Talons :p I'm not going to even bother commenting on what these will be like until I've tested them, since let's be honest nobody has used anything other than Feeder Tendrils anyway.

[Wise Windu]

They have already 70 Melee Skill.

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They aren't. Check the Codex.

Assault Terminators have 70, Chaos terms with lightning claws have 70, GK terms and Paladins have 70.

Vanilla Chaos Terminators and ranged SM terminators have 60.

[lolzarz]

They have already 70 Melee Skill.

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They aren't. Check the Codex.

Assault Terminators have 70, Chaos terms with lightning claws have 70, GK terms and Paladins have 70.

Vanilla Chaos Terminators and ranged SM terminators have 60.

Just checked Riku's link; saw 70 melee skill. Thanks Riku.

[Sub_Zero]

* Armor of the Apothecarian bonus speed no longer works while in combat. It only works out of combat (as intended)

Could you give a detailed explanation how it is going to work now? As far as I know there are a few things that use the same mechanic. I can name two of them. The Ravener Alpha regeneration armor and scouts' elite training. These two things can be abused really badly. Let me show you how. Shotgun scouts can close in with a foe to make some shots without being harmed much due to their insane health regeneration (you don't click to attack instead you click to move and once the distance is reached you click to attack); scouts can tank unholy amounts of damage from melee units (just kite away and scouts will be regenerating their health like crazy, add the factor of their high speed and you can't just kill them); move your scouts and don't command them to shoot any target (again they will be tanking a lot of damage while the rest of army owns the opponent's army, remember that they can run away from almost any foe, regenerate their health and be ready to tank again). I am talking about fully upgraded scouts. The sergeant being an immortal leader already allows them to "tank" damage kind of, the elite training upgrade makes them even better at it. Now I don't feel that I need to explain you how to abuse a single entity (the Ravener Alpha). So what will be done to those units that use this mechanic. If it is ok on scouts who are kind of fragile anyway then it is definetely should be taken away from the ravener alpha (read - reworked to work properly).

[lolzarz]

* Armor of the Apothecarian bonus speed no longer works while in combat. It only works out of combat (as intended)

Shotgun scouts can close in with a foe to make some shots without being harmed much due to their insane health regeneration (you don't click to attack instead you click to move and once the distance is reached you click to attack); scouts can tank unholy amounts of damage from melee units (just kite away and scouts will be regenerating their health like crazy, add the factor of their high speed and you can't just kill them); move your scouts and don't command them to shoot any target (again they will be tanking a lot of damage while the rest of army owns the opponent's army, remember that they can run away from almost any foe, regenerate their health and be ready to tank again). I am talking about fully upgraded scouts. The sergeant being an immortal leader already allows them to "tank" damage kind of, the elite training upgrade makes them even better at it.

Shotgun scouts are supposed to counter melee units. Use your guns. Shootas, Dire Avengers, CSM, I don't care. Just don't charge shotguns with axes and swords. It's the precise situation shotgun scouts are supposed to counter.

[Forestradio]

* Armor of the Apothecarian bonus speed no longer works while in combat. It only works out of combat (as intended)

Could you give a detailed explanation how it is going to work now? As far as I know there are a few things that use the same mechanic. I can name two of them. The Ravener Alpha regeneration armor and scouts' elite training. These two things can be abused really badly. Let me show you how. Shotgun scouts can close in with a foe to make some shots without being harmed much due to their insane health regeneration (you don't click to attack instead you click to move and once the distance is reached you click to attack); scouts can tank unholy amounts of damage from melee units (just kite away and scouts will be regenerating their health like crazy, add the factor of their high speed and you can't just kill them); move your scouts and don't command them to shoot any target (again they will be tanking a lot of damage while the rest of army owns the opponent's army, remember that they can run away from almost any foe, regenerate their health and be ready to tank again). I am talking about fully upgraded scouts. The sergeant being an immortal leader already allows them to "tank" damage kind of, the elite training upgrade makes them even better at it. Now I don't feel that I need to explain you how to abuse a single entity (the Ravener Alpha). So what will be done to those units that use this mechanic. If it is ok on scouts who are kind of fragile anyway then it is definetely should be taken away from the ravener alpha (read - reworked to work properly).

That's exactly how you use shotgun scouts. The elite training and immortal leader simply are there to make them scale better and have a lot more field presence.

[Kisuke.]

[quote="lolzarz"]Caeltos, could I inquire as to why are you nerfing the terminators? From what I've read, assault terminators aren't working because they, for lack of a more polite expression, can't fight melee squads for sh*t. Why would making them even worse in close combat help, I don't know. Maybe you could have simply given them 70 melee skill? I mean, they're elite melee units and they are less skilled in close combat than assault marines.

The ranged terminators (both Imperial and Chaos); why the change? How would making them worse at doing their job (shooting) and making them better at other things (punching) benefit gameplay? It's not as if they can't fight in melee; they have power fists. Also, now assault terminators have just 2 DPS more than normal terminators in melee. Why would I ever want Thunder Hammer Assault Terminators when standard Terminators hit (no pun intended) just as hard and have ranged weapons?

They lack melee combat?

[Kisuke.]

* Grey Knight Dreadnought Multi-Melta replaced with Hurricane Bolter

well shit back to the drawing board