Orc balance issues.

[Kwib-Kwib]

Hi there, guys! First of all, I would like to thank the Elite team for their amazing work, you are the best!

There is just this balance issue about orcs, that keeps bugging me. After watching tons of vids and playing, I strongly believe, that two of Orc units are quite overpowered, and 4/5 of the engagements turn out as a win for orcs, if they can exploit these units.
1) Nobs. That pretty much says it. They are ridiculously overpowered - no other race has such a super-tough anti-everything squad of super-asskickers. Who needs super-creatures, when you can buy more nobs?
Hammers and frenzy make them just too tenacious and powerful. And they can almost literally "do the game" alone.
As a possible means of overcoming this problem, I suggest denying them the ability to retreat and lowering their speed a bit. For Emperors sake, they are super-heavy! :3 should make these demi-gods a bit more down-to-the-realm-of-the-mortals, without changing too much.
2) Stormboys. Tier 1 all-power-melee jump unit? Seriously? No other race has such an advantage, and the stormboys can deal basically with any threat in tier1 one-on-one or easily jump away, if they are outnumbered.
I suggest they become normal melee-damage unit, and only gain some power weapons (maximum 2-3) along with the nob, much like the sluggas get those together with their burnas upgrade.

I look forward to more awesome stuff from you guys later and hope you find my suggestions noteworthy)

P.S. It may also be useful to somehow indicate the power-knives of sluggas (which they receive with burnas) and stormboys. Maybe make them glow green, like the commando-nobs knife?

[Forestradio]

1) Nobs.

The only thing wrong with nobz as they are right now is the weirdboy's support for them, but that is a weirdboy problem, not a nobz problem.

And you missed that nobz can be knocked down and suppressed (once their frenzy wears off). Lowering their speed and not allowing them to retreat is something I highly doubt that Caeltos will ever implement.

They also have heavy infantry armor, not super heavy infantry armor

2) Stormboys.

Stormboyz do good power melee dps yes (150 as a squad, over 200 with their leader). BUT
a) Their jump has no extra effects in T1 like other jump units have
b) they are horrible at retreat killing unless you use bommaboyz
c) They bleed horrendously compared to other jump units because their models are more fragile, and they are more vulnerable to AoE

For example, in t1, stormboyz might beat AC heretics in a 1v1 fight (say near a contested req point). But the heretics cost much less to reinforce and don't bleed any power, so that's not a fight the ork player wants to pick.

And the ability to jump away from bad situations is something that all jump units have.

[Torpid]

Well. This is a misguided post. The consensus in the elite mod meta is that generally orks ('K', not 'C') are pretty OP, much like nids, but not really for the reasons you stated.

1) Nobs are a unit that is typically viewed as being overpowered in the eyes of the lower-leveled playerbase. Much like the chaos lord is seen as overpowered as a hero and I guess it is for the same reason. Namely, that they're very simplistic units that beat everything else in a straight up fist-fight. DOW isn't as simple as that though. Nobs cost a whopping 500/100 + 40/40 + 100/25 + 100/50 = 740/215 for the fully upgraded nobs. Note that unlike most superunits the nob squad has heavy infantry armour not super heavy infantry armour meaning they are significantly less resistant to damage than other SHI units such as the GUO or the avatar. Also unlike such super units they have no melee control abilites - all nobs can do is smack stuff with their hammers, that's it, sure they can go invincible for a brief while, but they're still just smacking stuff with their hammers. Furthermore they can be knocked back and suppressed unlike all the other super units too, yet they cost more than the other super units and can bleed unlike the other super units?

So what is the compensation? Well, the compensation is that they can level up and they will beat most melee squads 1v1 head-on. These guys cost loads though, you're not meant to fight them head-on, that would be suicide. You beat them with layered suppression, or suppression combined with stuns/knockback so that their frenzy is rendered useless. Furthermore they can't easily catch up with tanks on their own (although the weirdboy helps out a lot there). Suffice to say nobs really aren't internally overpowered here. If they are over-performing it would seem more likely that that over-performance derives from an over-performance in the weirdboy, or just the ork eco in general.

2)Stormboyz do do very high damage, but they also die very fast and are very susceptible to huge amounts of bleed. They also are within a race that doesn't really have much follow up to synergise with a jump unit other than simply charging your whole army forwards afterwards - there are no shotgun scouts or similar forms of knockback to cover those jump units from melee after they jump in. Orks in general are also quite a requisition intensive race and stormboyz cost 40 requisition each model yet only have 180hp. This follows the general trend of orks in that they are the true glass cannons of DOW. High damage, low durability.

Regarding power melee weapons on stormboyz I think they are rather pivotal in the chaos/sm/gk vs orks MUs. The SM/GK jump units can be hugely troublesome without the power melee of the ork stormboyz, although the painboy in elite does much to help offset that. Still, having them as only ordinary melee would make them rather pathetic vs SM/gk considering their bleed and it would also seriously hamper their effectiveness vs nids (since in T2 they are your go to unit for dealing with ranged blobs via the killing of the venom brood models) and chaos (the havoc would be unfairly tough to kill).

Finally the power melee weapons that you get with the burnas upgrade are the actual burnas themselves. They do the same damage as an ordinary ork choppa but instead of being pvp melee they are power melee.

@Forest - Note the Stormboy Nob deals heavy melee damage in elite.

[Magus Magi]

I tend to feel the most consternation over the Weird Boy and tankbusta resource cost. That said, I don't play orks, so I don't have too much of a right to comment on their balance.

EDIT: And mekboy landmine snare on vehicles. Tex pointed that out in his thread and boy is it amazing to actually see in game. I mean wowza.

[Forestradio]

@Forest - Note the Stormboy Nob deals heavy melee damage in elite.

I know that. But catching up to a vehicle that is running away isn't easy at all with stormboyz, unless it is a walker vehicle with a ranged weapon.

[Bahamut]

I'd say sluggas are the OP ones rather than stormboyz. Stormboyz cost 40/4 per model to reinforce, which is quite a high price for a 120(?) hp model. Where was sluggas are just way too damn good for their price

Also, weirdboy is OP indeed, Warp vomit stuns for 8, EIGHT seconds and on top of that increases the ranged damage taken by 20% (IIRC) to units that were caught by the vomit. But if that's not enough, you have warpath which, unlike veil of time for the libby, affects several squads and not only increases their speed, but also their melee damage by 15%

[Torpid]

@Forest - Note the Stormboy Nob deals heavy melee damage in elite.

I know that. But catching up to a vehicle that is running away isn't easy at all with stormboyz, unless it is a walker vehicle with a ranged weapon.

You said earlier "Stormboyz do good power melee dps yes (150 as a squad, over 200 with their leader)."

[Forestradio]

@Forest - Note the Stormboy Nob deals heavy melee damage in elite.

I know that. But catching up to a vehicle that is running away isn't easy at all with stormboyz, unless it is a walker vehicle with a ranged weapon.

You said earlier "Stormboyz do good power melee dps yes (150 as a squad, over 200 with their leader)."

Was referring to the overall base damage per second, not damage type, sorry if it was unclear.

[Dark Riku]

Also, weirdboy is OP indeed, Warp vomit stuns for 8, EIGHT seconds and on top of that increases the ranged damage taken by 20% (IIRC) to units that were caught by the vomit. But if that's not enough, you have warpath which, unlike veil of time for the libby, affects several squads and not only increases their speed, but also their melee damage by 15%

Vomit up psychic stuff, doing up to 20 sniper damage and weapon knockback to enemy infantry caught in the spew. Exposed infantry are stunned for 8 seconds and they take 20% more damage

It's a straight up 20% increase from all sources.

Makes all allied infantry in radius 20 take 20% less damage, increase their speed by 2 and increase melee damage by 15%.

Don't forget the 20% defence buff.

Yeah... Weirdboy is still way too good.

[Asmon]

As already said, Orkz are very good indeed but not because of Nobz and Stormz. It is mainly due to the overall cost-efficiency of slugga and shoota boyz, everything considered from reinforcement to upgrades. Then weirdo comes in T2.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

I'd say sluggas are the OP ones rather than stormboyz. Stormboyz cost 40/4 per model to reinforce, which is quite a high price for a 120(?) hp model. Where was sluggas are just way too damn good for their price

Also, weirdboy is OP indeed, Warp vomit stuns for 8, EIGHT seconds and on top of that increases the ranged damage taken by 20% (IIRC) to units that were caught by the vomit. But if that's not enough, you have warpath which, unlike veil of time for the libby, affects several squads and not only increases their speed, but also their melee damage by 15%

+1 i SUPPORT This shit, the WEIRDBOY hasn't been Touched upon in AGES
.
UYC included in the Mix lol, PB/Weirdboy is already a Strong combination for HI races to fight . y give Nobz 10 seconds duration again, their Invulnerability allows them to destroy a Vehicle before retreating ,Even more nuts is Vomit stun then Sluggaz swarm Em with UYC ,even Gay with Weirdboy just Warpath his Ass tracking Ork Melee units to chase down retreating Units without need of firing his staff. Warpath is 35 energy to use ,Weirdboy has the most energy pool

[Kwib-Kwib]

After reading dozens of posts, telling me I am wrong in mu assumptions, I can say the following thing.
Indeed, the stormboys and the nobs can be quite costly and both are not immune to knockback and suppression. But:
1) Everyone knows that and uses whatever means possible to avoid these debuff.
2) Maybe in a 1vs1 battle there will rarely be more than 1 nob squad on the field, but in a, say, 3vs3 battle two-three nob squads can easily flank the enemy and take apart virtually anything ranging from a IG platoon to an avatar. And that's the issue here. Nobs are (relatively) more cost efficient than, say, terminators, and apart from some very expensive (and much less numerous) units like Assault Ters., GUO, Avatar or a Drednaught no one can stand up to them. I can remember only one match (from dozens) where I have actually seen a nob squad go down completely.
If not weakened, may be the number of nob squads should be limited? Like those sternguard and vanguard veteran marines?
3) As for the stormboys - the same thing applies - two squads are a flanking-jumping-hell in tier 1 for any enemy.

In conclusion, I have a question. Why is elite mod so VP-capture centered? In the vanilla I quite enjoyed the outright-destruction matches, where the goal was to wipe the enemy from the galaxy completely. But, seeing the balance as it is now, I believe such games are just not feasible. Is there any reason for that, or am I mistaken?

P.S. Probably should still somehow visually indicate orcy power-weapons :3 looks just weird to me, when a bunch of crude knives takes apart a fully-armored terminator squad)
Maybe some yellow-orange glow/electricity currents? Should also be quite useful for the orc players, so that they know which slugga-models in a squad must pe better preserved?

[lolzarz]

For the love of god, it's ORKS. There has to be a K. Stop using the spelling with the C in it. Welcome to Warhammer 40K.

[Kwib-Kwib]

OH PLEEEZ FARGIVE ME BAD SPELLIN :3

[L0thar]

I disagre that Nobz are fine (in team games).

1) Their initial purchase is pretty low, compared to super units. That means they hit the field sooner and have a longer time to influence the game and collect exp. Yes, after all upgrades they are very costly, but you can upgrade them as you go.
2) They have immense survivability and can level.
3) They get immense support from the rest of the ork army. Weirdboy, suppa tuff beam, UYC, freaking call da boyz, you name it.
4) Relatively easy to replace. They don't cost red, nor have cooldown.

Most importantly:
5) They have too much force concentration. Yes, they cost a lot (but the total cost is a little misleading, see ad 1), but for the cost you get unit that in relatively small popcap concentrate great power. And the longer the game goes, the better Nobz become.

Now all of this doesn't cause that much trouble in 1v1. The map is big, units are few, so you get a lot of playroom. The game is generally tight on resources and ends shortly in T3, meaning point 5) isn't that pronounced.

But in 3v3 it gets easily ridiculous. Multiple highly leveled squads, tight places, terrible terrible damage.

What to do? Not sure. Making them cheaper but less killy/survivable in return and/or making them cost more pop wouldn't singificantly change 1v1, but would help a team games a lot.

Also, weirdboy is OP indeed, Warp vomit stuns for 8, EIGHT seconds and on top of that increases the ranged damage taken by 20% (IIRC) to units that were caught by the vomit. But if that's not enough, you have warpath which, unlike veil of time for the libby, affects several squads and not only increases their speed, but also their melee damage by 15%

Yeah, weirdboy is silly, probably one of the worst balanced unit in Elite. He just have so much utility and for a pretty good cost to boot.

[Bahamut]

Daisy is another unit that's OP, the deff rolla rapes units even in retreat and insta gibs models way too often and you only need ONE squad to fully load it (srsly??)

Nobs aren't too bad in 3v3 anymore because call da boyz reinforce lasts only for 5 seconds instead of 20 like in retail. You know, the idea is that all races are balanced, not that orks becomes completely useless in t3 because they've been OP for years.

As SM you get LRR and pdevs, LC termies and hammer if you're FC
As Eldar you get fire prisms, the KB affects nobs even while in frenzy, then SC and shees to chop chop them
As Nid you use genestealers and SL
As IG you use HWT with shield or inside of bunkers, kasrkins also do a shitload of dps
As GK LRC and halberd termies work good
And half the chaos roster can stand up to nobs, so as chaos you shouldnt have too much trouble

If weirdboy(needs a gazililion nerfs), daisy (need to have its deff rolla nerfed and needs to require more than 1 squad for full speed), sluggas and UYC(needs to be 100red IMO) get their deserved nerf then nobs won't be perceived as OP, because the orks will have a balanced roster supporting them, not an OP one

[Raffa]

People talk about Orks being OP so much, and not just dem SM fanbois either, so there is probably something to it, however tbh I don't have as much trouble fighting Orks.

Maybe it's because I play Chaos mostly these days, but I don't find Chaos has that much of an advantage in this MU except possibly for Sorcerer (then again, what matchup is a well-played sorcerer not favoured in lol?)

On topic:

Nobz are fine, huge cost at 215(!) power demands performance. Must say I've seen them really tear shit up but without proper Webo/Mek support they're fairly easily countered.

Daisy is insane. Mow da lawn.

[Kvek]

They talk about them being OP because they are, check out my game with knob vs Tex's FS, without the OP bullshit orks are it would have been a quick stomp
And chaos and nids are the only two factions that orks have problems with

[Torpid]

Orks own Nids.

[Flash]

elite is balanced around 1v1, (a mode a I rarely play). The reason annihilate is unpopular is because few people want to spend 60 minutes shooting your base when the game has been over since the first 15-20.

Also even in team games (which is what I do play), I don't think nobs overperform as much as people are saying. For the ork player you have to buy frenzy immediately, elevating their cost to more than a tank. They are also much less deadly without their hammers. Frenzy is 75 red per use. If you don't immediately succeed in an engagement, then that red cost adds up pretty quick. Means ways less abilities and no roks.

Additionally if you are against Orks, you should plan for nobs to be on the field. There is really no excuse not too. Orks have two major game changer units in t3, nobs, and looted tanks. Keep that in mind and you will have less trouble with them. If a painboy and/or weird boy survives till that point, then it's much more likely to be nobs. regardless they can both be dealt with by set up teams.

On controlling nobs, their counters have already been listed. Knockback, and suppression. More than 1 is needed. Suppression + Knockback + focus fire, means nobs are gona eat a lot of red and not be very efficient. If your against the knob, keep a detector near your units. If against the wb, be careful not to over extend your vehichles or termies. If against the mek, start crying when supa tough beam comes out XD.

Seriously though, nobs are strong in team games yeah, but with a little forethought and smart play they can be diminished as a factor.

And it's a team game, work with your team mates, call for help when you need it.

[Dark Riku]

Daisy, Flash Gitz and Kommandos are not game changers?
Especially Daisy! This is new to me :p

[Kwib-Kwib]

elite is balanced around 1v1, (a mode a I rarely play). The reason annihilate is unpopular is because few people want to spend 60 minutes shooting your base when the game has been over since the first 15-20.

Also even in team games (which is what I do play), I don't think nobs overperform as much as people are saying. For the ork player you have to buy frenzy immediately, elevating their cost to more than a tank. They are also much less deadly without their hammers. Frenzy is 75 red per use. If you don't immediately succeed in an engagement, then that red cost adds up pretty quick. Means ways less abilities and no roks.

Additionally if you are against Orks, you should plan for nobs to be on the field. There is really no excuse not too. Orks have two major game changer units in t3, nobs, and looted tanks. Keep that in mind and you will have less trouble with them. If a painboy and/or weird boy survives till that point, then it's much more likely to be nobs. regardless they can both be dealt with by set up teams.

On controlling nobs, their counters have already been listed. Knockback, and suppression. More than 1 is needed. Suppression + Knockback + focus fire, means nobs are gona eat a lot of red and not be very efficient. If your against the knob, keep a detector near your units. If against the wb, be careful not to over extend your vehichles or termies. If against the mek, start crying when supa tough beam comes out XD.

Seriously though, nobs are strong in team games yeah, but with a little forethought and smart play they can be diminished as a factor.

And it's a team game, work with your team mates, call for help when you need it.

Thanks for the explanation about the annihilate)
As for the nobs, maybe people who say they are not so OP have at least some point, cause a good disruption strategy really does bleed orks quite heavily. Still they have more infantry buffs than I would like :3
Thanks for the strategy tips as well, should come in handy)

[Nurland]

Why are ppl calling da Lulwagon Daisy? I must have missed something here. Is it reference to something or what?

Anyway Lulwagon is the single most broken thing the Ork roster... Weirdo brings also bit too much bang for the buck imo but Lulwagon is just retarded. It wipes so much shit it is not even remotely funny.

[Warp Dust Addict]

Why are ppl calling da Lulwagon Daisy? I must have missed something here. Is it reference to something or what?

Anyway Lulwagon is the single most broken thing the Ork roster... Weirdo brings also bit too much bang for the buck imo but Lulwagon is just retarded. It wipes so much shit it is not even remotely funny.

Yea same here I never got the memo for the name change.Also its insanely broken its supposed to be a 3% gib chance but its more like 300%.

[Forestradio]

"Daisy" is the name of the Battlewagon in the Retribution campaigns.

You kill it by baiting it over explosive fuel barrels, it has like 99% damage resistance to even normal AV weaponry.

[Bahamut]

most of the best orky quotes in that mission

"Red goes fasta!!"
"me only regret is.. EXPLODING"
"crush them with them deff rolla!!"

[Flash]

Again I preface with for team games; I make no claims about 1v1, and a lot of the comments before were about team games. I didn't include "Daisy" because it's an expensive super unit. In my experience with 3v3, it is usually NOT the first thing out once t3 is reached. Some strategies involve going light and getting it, but it isn't as frequent and usually is the result of a mismatch of skill between opponents imo. Flashgitz are also expensive power wise, and again in my experience do not provide the necessarily force multiplier or "oomph" that you generally need come t3 as a first purchase as orks. They work well to add on the dakka certainly, but they're easily countered by jump troops. They're basically better shoota boyz. They require a minimum amount of change in your strategy to counter them than all the other t3 ork units. Kommandoes are again shoota boyz, with more health damage and way more utility and light AV. I love me some kommandoes, but they're not your biggest worry right away.

[Lulgrim]

In conclusion, I have a question. Why is elite mod so VP-capture centered? In the vanilla I quite enjoyed the outright-destruction matches, where the goal was to wipe the enemy from the galaxy completely. But, seeing the balance as it is now, I believe such games are just not feasible. Is there any reason for that, or am I mistaken?

Because DoW2 in general was designed completely around VP victory. Annihilation just doesn't suit the game and was half-assedly slapped on afterwards. As a result it's one of the most brain-numbingly crappy modes in any game and frankly it was only ever populated by n00bs in my experience.

Why are ppl calling da Lulwagon Daisy? I must have missed something here. Is it reference to something or what?

Campaign.

[Broodwich]

most of the best orky quotes in that mission

"Red goes fasta!!"
"me only regret is.. EXPLODING"
"crush them with them deff rolla!!"

My license plate frame

[The extension jpg has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]

[Arbit]

That's... that's the best thing ever.