Space Marine Assault Terminators for everyone.

[fok12]

So this has been floating around my mind for some time now. What is the reasoning behind only Force Commander getting Assault Termies? I mean, Chaos get both variants. I don't say that SM have any problems with melee squads (or I like Assaults Terminators ), it's just that I don't get it. Is there a specific reason or only a fluff-wise decision?

[Raffa]

Is there a specific reason

Actually there is.

Extra flexibility with Terminators is FC's tradeoff for not having another global (remember only 5 globals per hero).

And before you ask, shoehorning both variants into one global is a no-no, that would give waaaay too much flexibility.

[Bahamut]

is fine for chaos, but heresy for SM

[Torpid]

The exact same flexibility that all chaos heroes currently have?

I mean, in general there does seem to need to be something slightly more attractive about chaos termies than loyalist termies because the SM t3 is far easier to achieve than the chaos t3 put simply. Yet, SM already has the worse globals. I want to say the autocannon is better than the SM ranged options, but it isn't really considering all the chaos termies get is the autocannon and that the flamer or the CML can both be much more useful than that in certain situations (considering the extra hp loyalist termies get too).

I'm not convinced an apo or TM with access to melee terminators would be that overpowered anymore so than any of the chaos heroes already are :L

[Raffa]

The exact same flexibility that all chaos heroes currently have?

I mean, in general there does seem to need to be something slightly more attractive about chaos termies than loyalist termies because the SM t3 is far easier to achieve than the chaos t3 put simply. Yet, SM already has the worse globals. I want to say the autocannon is better than the SM ranged options, but it isn't really considering all the chaos termies get is the autocannon and that the flamer or the CML can both be much more useful than that in certain situations (considering the extra hp loyalist termies get too).

I'm not convinced an apo or TM with access to melee terminators would be that overpowered anymore so than any of the chaos heroes already are :L

Yes Chaos has more flexibility with regards to their Terminators, but as you correctly pointed out they need to be that bit more attractive as the Chaos economy is not strong and it is probably the hardest race to reach T3 with, certainly far harder than for SM.

The lower HP of SM Terminators hurts, but you need them cheaper to encourage you to go to T3 with your shitty-ass eco. The autocannon perhaps has the best all-round utility, although it is more expensive and of course on a more fragile model.

Oh, and Chaos can't support it's Terminators like SM can (yes Mr Libby, I'm talking about you). And don't get the option of dedicated hard AV to counter a Swarmlord/Baneblade/Land Raider. And don't get to torch power farms like *that*. And don't have an ability that disrupts armies.

I'm not saying that they are, but just because Chaos has something similar but arguably better than SM does not mean it's time to buff SM too, or vice versa.

Believe me, I would kill to buy extra armour on a Chaos Laspred. And don't immobilise while upgrading

[Bahamut]

Oh, and Chaos can't support it's Terminators like SM can (yes Mr Libby, I'm talking about you). And don't get the option of dedicated hard AV to counter a Swarmlord/Baneblade/Land Raider. And don't get to torch power farms like *that*. And don't have an ability that disrupts armies.

wat??

torch gen farms? are we on retail now? dedicated hard AV to counter SL baneblade LR? wat?. disrupt armies? you mean the ciclone missile launcher that the chaos dread can get in t2?

2 out of 3 chaos heroes can support their termies like 10 times more than a SM could dream of and even then the plague champ can still heal them pretty damn good

[Torpid]

Yeah, I actually think the chaos termies are much better supported than the SM ones actually considering chaos get all that support at much lower sunk costs - actually for pretty much no sunk costs, since it all comes from shrines, globals and wargear (which are all very cheap and not very niche unlike the libby).

Whether you're talking about the hammernators or the CML termies either way they're not a dedicated AV source if the autocannon termies aren't as they're only slightly better at AV than the autocannon termies, yet they are leagues worse vs infantry. Not to mention if you're in need of AV most of the time you can buy predator instead, or chaos could just get a land raider phobos (is that because they can't get an LRR? [nope because they get a GUO for that role]).

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Chaos Terminators are more flexible and glass cannon than the loyal ones. The CT Autocannon have less brute DPS than the LT Assault Cannon (~42 dps vs 70 dps) but have a better damage type and have AOE damage.

Still, Chaos don't have Hammer + Stormshields Terminators (a shame, because exists an great Khorne shield model )

Chaos and SM offer similar but different support. Where Chaos have a more constant but static buffs (Shrines, Worship) with some exceptions (mainly the Chaos Sorcerer's support abilities), the SM one is more temporary but more potent ones and more mobile ones. The Librarian have a great synergy with Terminators. The Gate of Infinity can literally save your Terminator's ass when in other situations for overextend them could were doomed. Chaos can't do this, except if you are the Chaos Sorcerer.

Give Assault Terminators to all commanders can do troubles in the balance. For example, Armour of the Apotecarion with his % maximun hp heal + Lighting Claws Assault Terminators could make them impossible very difficult to kill.

[Bahamut]

The CT Autocannon have less brute DPS than the LT Assault Cannon (~42 dps vs 70 dps) but have a better damage type and have AOE damage.

Reaper cannon has 32.667 dps, autocannon damage, splash 3, range 0-49
Assault Cannon has 59.733 dps, piercing damage, splash 0, range 0-49

Still, Chaos don't have Hammer + Stormshields Terminators (a shame, because exists an great Khorne shield model )

sadness

Give Assault Terminators to all commanders can do troubles in the balance. For example, Armour of the Apotecarion with his % maximun hp heal + Lighting Claws Assault Terminators could make them impossible very difficult to kill.

You mean nurgle shrine healing 7% hp every 6 seconds per shrine? or plague champ healing for ~110 hp per model with mocus discharge (OMG that's a lvl 2 apo heal!!)

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Reaper cannon has 32.667 dps, autocannon damage, splash 3, range 0-49
Assault Cannon has 59.733 dps, piercing damage, splash 0, range 0-49

Yes, my mistake. Well, at least I fail in 10 dps in both weapons

You mean nurgle shrine healing 7% hp every 6 seconds per shrine? or plague champ healing for ~110 hp per model with mocus discharge (OMG that's a lvl 2 apo heal!!)

6 seconds if the Heretics are worshipping the Shrine. 12 seconds if not.

The Armour of Apotecarion heal is 2% of the maximun heal each second meanwhile the Apo have energy.

Except It was changed, Mucus Discharge heals 145 to the Plague Champion and 70 to each model.

[Bahamut]

so, we keep the 2 tic squads from t1 and build 3 shrines with them, then we put them to worship 2 of those shrines and that leave us with:

14% hp every 6 seconds and 7% every twelve

that translatets to 35% hp every 12 seconds which is.... an average of 2.91% hp per second!

Yeah...

[Nuclear Arbitor]

of 4500 or whatever. a better way to look at it is that if it's about 1% per second it takes about 2 minutes to fully heal them from 0 hp.

[Dark Riku]

Give Assault Terminators to all commanders can do troubles in the balance. For example, Armour of the Apotecarion with his % maximun hp heal + Lighting Claws Assault Terminators could make them impossible very difficult to kill.

If you are stupid enough to attack the terminators and not go after the apo first that is. It's really not hard at all. Especially if he's using it to heal offensive units like that. He's in the heat of the battle, upfront. A place where he does not want to be.

[Forestradio]

I'm opposed to this as someone who is an SM main.

Why? Because it takes away from the uniqueness of the Force Commander as a hero.

[Torpid]

Doesn't the existence of bloodletters in the rosters of all the various chaos heroes take away from the uniqueness of the CL? Not to mention that makes less sense fluff-wise, whereas assault terminators don't (apos/tms don't lead SMs into battle anyway).

It's also not like that's all that the FC is good for :L

[MaxPower]

Doesn't the existence of bloodletters in the rosters of all the various chaos heroes take away from the uniqueness of the CL? Not to mention that makes less sense fluff-wise, whereas assault terminators don't (apos/tms don't lead SMs into battle anyway).

It's also not like that's all that the FC is good for :L

But it is one of his defining abilities, I mean If we give all the other SM heroes assault Terminators as well, which new ability would the FC get to compensate for the "loss" of his unique unit?

[Forestradio]

Doesn't the existence of bloodletters in the rosters of all the various chaos heroes take away from the uniqueness of the CL?

Not a valid comparison at all. The worship and shrines of the CL make him plenty unique

Not to mention that makes less sense fluff-wise, whereas assault terminators don't (apos/tms don't lead SMs into battle anyway).

Relic never handled any of the fluff correctly, they had plenty of dumb stuff like pyskers turning into Khornate daemon princes.

And you're even wrong on that, the Iron Hands chapter holds a great deal of respect for their Techmarines, called "Iron Fathers."

"The Iron Hands eschew the traditional office of Chaplain in favor of their Iron Fathers, specially trained Techmarines who serve to protect the faith of their brethren; some outsiders view this (as well as the Iron Hands' ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus in general) as an unhealthy relationship.[10] Iron Fathers also sit on the Iron Council of the Chapter.[19a]"
Source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Hands#Iron_Fathers

It's also not like that's all that the FC is good for :L

As someone who used to main Force Commander pretty much exclusively, I am well aware of that.

[Bahamut]

But it is one of his defining abilities, I mean If we give all the other SM heroes assault Terminators as well, which new ability would the FC get to compensate for the "loss" of his unique unit?

It'd be freaking awesome if both terminators call ins for the FC didnt share cooldown

And you're even wrong on that, the Iron Hands chapter holds a great deal of respect for their Techmarines, called "Iron Fathers."

Maybe i'm wrong, but AFAIK iron hands don't have their own codex, so even they still can't pick up TM as HQs, only as elite same as other chapters.

SM unnamed HQs are chapter masters, captains, chaplains, librarians and command rhinos

[Dark Riku]

But it is one of his defining abilities, I mean If we give all the other SM heroes assault Terminators as well, which new ability would the FC get to compensate for the "loss" of his unique unit?

Nothing. He wouldn't lose anything...

[Sub_Zero]

Believe me, I would kill to buy extra armour on a Chaos Laspred. And don't immobilise while upgrading

Bitching about SM fanboys, aren't you, dog?

MaxPower, the dev team didn't not feel like that about the Farseer's unique ability and they gave it to each Eldar commander. Not exactly the global ability were given but a T3 unit for a higher resourse cost and no red cost.

[Broodwich]

Honestly, of all the commanders, fc needs ass terms the least.

[Arbit]

Worst thing I can see happening from this is the TM orbing and/or marking a vehicle and assterms teleporting in to bang on it with their hammers. Mark target would make LC terms pretty beastly as well. Then again FC pfist/sacred standard + assterms are apparently legit so... I'm all for it

LC upgrade could remain exclusive to the FC if there's some sort of need to make the FC's termies more special, but I don't see why that should be personally.

[Torpid]

It makes no sense to say "The FC needs his special terminators", this won't affect him. If the CL is distinct to his other chaos heroes due to his shrines and worship then isn't the FC unique for having the best melee control weapon in the game? Having a heavy melee weapon that comes with an ability that completely immobilises vehicles. How about his battlecry ability? Being the only SM hero to teleport maybe? What about being able to purchase terminator armour?

My point was imagine a scenario in which only the CL got access to BLs as a global. I think people would promptly complain because the roster was somewhat meh. To be honest SM has seem little buffs to its t3 in elite compared to the other races and I think giving all the heroes assault terminators would help them out a lot.

The FC could get something to compensate. Maybe just giving ranged termies for the ohter heroes a lightning claw upgrade and no hammernators *which themselves are IMO getting a buff next patch with the extra regen*. Or he could get a new global entirely. Or some other workaround so that he doesn't have a totally redundant global.

Regarding your orbs/mark target worry Arbit, the FC can get the teleporter+power fist and FoS vehicles and then FTE his termies anyway and that's a lot easier to pull off than what you're suggesting the TM does.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

so, we keep the 2 tic squads from t1 and build 3 shrines with them, then we put them to worship 2 of those shrines and that leave us with:

14% hp every 6 seconds and 7% every twelve

that translatets to 35% hp every 12 seconds which is.... an average of 2.91% hp per second!

Yeah...

Yeah, of course. It's possible. But that static strategy eats almost a third of the Chaos pop. Without mention the upkeep. An still it's only 50% better than the Armour of Apotecarion heal, a single wargear armour that haven't all that drawbacks.

If you are stupid enough to attack the terminators and not go after the apo first that is. It's really not hard at all. Especially if he's using it to heal offensive units like that. He's in the heat of the battle, upfront. A place where he does not want to be.

The problem is that is sometimes more easy to say than to do. You should kill first Worshipping Heretics, but it's difficult to do when you have Bloodletters/Juggernaut kicking your ass.

Still, you can use Armor of Apotecarion to keep Hammer/LC Terminators in field after a battle. Yes, currently you can do this with ranged Terminators, but normally for his melee nature Hammer/LC Terminators used to suffer more damage than the ranged variants.

[Nurland]

Not sure about this one. It's not like ass termies are so omfg rofl wtf good anymore
And no offence but building 3 shrines and constantly worshipping them with 2 tics is a resource sink of nearly 900 req and 45 power (if tics are vanilla, if not, the power cost can be as high as 135 and req goes to around 1200) and 23-31pop + the upkeep... On one of the two most req hungry factions in the game Those resources contribute only by healing your army and cannot move. So tbh that is not really a very viable example of supporting your terminators...

I imagine AoA being used more to support ranged termies and heal melee ones between engagements rather than aporunning into a pile of dakka with lulminators.

[Raffa]

Believe me, I would kill to buy extra armour on a Chaos Laspred. And don't immobilise while upgrading

Bitching about SM fanboys, aren't you, dog?

Au contraire:

you are the most rotten person I have seen in a long time. Has your mother ever taught you good manners?

I seriously think to abandon this forum. The concentration of rotten persons here is off the scale. Peace out, I am done.

I'm sure you're very popular now. What happened to quitting? I was happy

Oh and peace out. Dog.

[Asmon]

I would be ok with Assault Terminators for every commander. Though I believe it would only matter in team games.

[MaxPower]

It makes no sense to say "The FC needs his special terminators", this won't affect him.

It wouldn't affect him directly that much is true, but it would affect him indirectly because all the other SM Heroes would get them as well.

That means that they would get all the Terminator Variants (Ass + Ranged) and still maintain their 5 globals (2 of em which are unique to each faction), yet the FC would only have 1 unique globals (for the emperor, that is) left.

If you wanna give all the other SM heroes AssTerminatos as well, the FC should get something to compensate for the lack of a 2nd unique global, something like ...

It'd be freaking awesome if both terminators call ins for the FC didnt share cooldown.

...that.

[Dark Riku]

The shrine comparison is driving me nuts.

You only need one, preferably behind a LoS blocking thing. You don't need to worry about energy either nor the huge power cost of 50 and 20 for IME. (70)
AND it reinforces AND damages and suppresses enemies in a damn big radius.

The point still is that Chaos can support their terminators way more easily due to globals,hero wargears and most importantly tics.

[L0thar]

I fully support making assterms accessible to Apo and TM. Mainly for reasons already stated by Torpid.

I really don't see how anything in Apo or TM arsenal could make them OP, if they are fine with FC (or Chaos heroes, for that matter). I know 1v1 is different, but you could already see all the combination in teams games and I've never seen any complains.

I main FC and I would be fine even with FC getting nothing in return, he is pretty unique hero as it is. But I wouldn't complain if he gets new global instead, or the no-shared cooldown suggested before.


Fluff section:

Just to clear something out - Space Marines can be indeed led by Techmarines...respectively by these guys:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Master_of_the_Forge

and while Iron Hands don't have their own codex, one of their clan has a supplement:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Clan_Raukaan_-_A_Codex:_Space_Marines_Supplement_(6th_Edition)

but I can't access it right now, so dunno what is different from vanilla codex.