Orc balance issues.

[Codex]

Ok this might not be on topic, but im sorry to say this, that's not a great post at all you guys need to start thinking with your head honestly.

Wp, not only have you misunderstood Toil's post, you've managed to strawman his points AND insult anyone who has agreed with him! Holy shit, well played.

You know what makes me mad? Not when people post misinformation. It does annoy me when people post disinformation, but then start a post with a generalist sweeping statement like THAT.

If you can break down his argument, do it with points and arguments: as it stands you're almost ad hominem. Hell, at best, all you guys (yes plural) have achieved is making Toil facepalm and regret his decision to post at all.

Toilailee is obviously NOT claiming that everything in this game is perfectly balanced down to a T. That would be strange: for one, that would assume that perfect game balance is possible, which, well, if possible, would be very difficult to achieve and some time down the line.

What Toil IS claiming is that there's a fundamental lack of innovation and a lazy attitude towards improvement and adaptation: this prevents people from adapting to winnable situations, hence why Toil's example of 3 sluggas 3 shootas was pertinent: is it an OP build? I don't think so; it's just a huge T1 with tons of T1 pressure. Instead, the obvious fallback position is "that's unbeatable"=> "that's OP"=> bitch whine "plz Kelltos fix mah gam"... how can anyone be objective when talking about balance if they're blind to their own biases?

And even then, the second half of Toil's claim (which, believe it or not, is consistent) is that even the things which he believes are OP have significant counterplay if you scout it/ predict it/ whatever. Basically that skill can overcome any OPness in the game. Note that this is NOT the same claim as OP doesn't exist: Toil's actual claim has the corollary that balance is manageable in every case, NOT that balance is perfect.

[Torpid]

Exactly Codex, except like I already said "nobody contested that in the first place. So the whole post was an out-of-place rant." Nothing too innovative, nothing too radical. Those who acknowledge this already know it's true and play by it, those who don't play by it have still heard about it because it has been said on the forums an endless amount of times by now, but why would these people change their minds now?

We know some people are lazy with regards to build orders and innovation and such is why I tried to formulate an objective definition of OP that we can observe.

In the acknowledging of the post as something brilliant you are clearly perceiving it as radical, innovative and change-inducing, not merely a rant we've all heard 1000x before. So, you must be viewing the shaky logic as sound, which it clearly isn't. Of course, the logic only appears unsound due to the poor phrasing in English, yet if his point was not to express such an argument as he did, but rather to pursue the rant which you seem to be arguing he did, then I severely fail to see how it a brilliant post. Rather as I've now said too many times, it was an out-of-place rant with little context to the thread.

The post occurred directly after mine yet I couldn't respond to it because it was a complete non-sequitur.

[Ace of Swords]

Wp, not only have you misunderstood Toil's post, you've managed to strawman his points AND insult anyone who has agreed with him! Holy shit, well played.

And how is that a strawman exactly? point it out then, Im not worried about toil's opinion im worried about you guys blindly following in, his point was that every unit has a counter, alright but what we are discussing in this topic is ork balance, and I and a a few other people cleary know that orks along with nids are a span or even 2 above all the other races for various reason, it's not something defendable.

You know what makes me mad? Not when people post misinformation. It does annoy me when people post disinformation, but then start a post with a generalist sweeping statement like THAT.

That's not generalist at all, like I said all you did was just agreeing with him, with something that to me sounds really dumb, no offense for anyone, but you can't just say get 5 snipers to counter a slugga squad with painboy, yes im exagerating right now but you get the idea, same point I made in the first post.

toilailee is obviously NOT claiming that everything in this game is perfectly balanced down to a T. That would be strange: for one, that would assume that perfect game balance is possible, which, well, if possible, would be very difficult to achieve and some time down the line.

What Toil IS claiming is that there's a fundamental lack of innovation and a lazy attitude towards improvement and adaptation: this prevents people from adapting to winnable situations, hence why Toil's example of 3 sluggas 3 shootas was pertinent: is it an OP build? I don't think so; it's just a huge T1 with tons of T1 pressure.

Im truly not seeing this anywhere I and almost everyone I see playing tries out new and different builds EVERY DAY, but you know what? You can't fucking make 4 scouts work vs big shootas, so eventually you try out every possible opening but go back to the standard because it's the only thing that somehow works.

With some recent unit implementation the balance WAS broken, what once worked didn't anymore, and new builds didn't work either making the only solution going with a standard build and relaying on going T2 or T3 first, and you know what? That works against an inferior opponent but it doesn't against anyone that knows how to press it's advantage and I think that was showed enough in the tournament.

And even then, the second half of Toil's claim (which, believe it or not, is consistent) is that even the things which he believes are OP have significant counterplay if you scout it/ predict it/ whatever. Basically that skill can overcome any OPness in the game. Note that this is NOT the same claim as OP doesn't exist: Toil's actual claim has the corollary that balance is manageable in every case, NOT that balance is perfect.

And yet against this boils down to my "strawman" right?

Of course a better player will beat an inferior opponent, but what happens when both have the same skill? The one with the better race wins, I think this was a fact proven again and again in our random games aswell as the MRT, im not even claiming to be as good as toil/riku/noisy or you, actually my micro is pretty shit but suddently when playing both orks and nids there are absolutely no problems even when making huge mistakes, OP is OP when on the same terms for both players (skill,map control,losses etc) 1 race has advantages over the others, and there are no doubts (I hope) that both nids and orks are broken under this aspect.

[Arbit]

This thread started out focused on nobs and stormboys and devolved into pretty much every T1 and T2 unit in the ork roster except lootas being called out for nerfs. This thread is unfocused and includes few practical solutions, and has people barfing out contextless lists of advantages and then calling for nerfs (seriously, you can make any unit in the game sound OP if you purely list the advantages). Also... calling something OP based on 3v3s where a player gets double nobs? Come on.

That's what Toil is responding to I would guess.

[Flash]

What he said. Can we move on from arguing about arguments and go back to actually talking about something constructive?

[Forestradio]

the thread originally about the deff rolla, started by toil:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=408

[Flash]

I personally would like to see the deff rolla moved to fixed damage instead of the %insta gib. Nikhel proposed 50 damage, but with how often it triggers, 10 might be a good starting value

Another way to work with it is to change the frequency from .1 to .5, which according to milty's calculations would elevate the survival chance of a unit exposed for 5 seconds to 66%

[Toilailee]

How about the lightning claw terminators + force commander with lightning claws back in chaos rising, they shredded everything, they could solo armies.

They were op, like totally broken, but following your train of thought, they were not because you could just get lc terminators of your own if you were a FC and defeat them.

...

._.

But Maaax.... Don't you get it. That is exactly my point; there is nothing utterly broken like that currently in this game.


There are op things in the game still, but everything in the game CAN be beaten. _CAN_, do you know what this word means? It doesn't mean that it is fine or that it shouldn't be nerfed or that I am defending it. It means that with the right countermeasures you can beat any "op" thing in the game.

When I was a noob/intermidiate and thought something was op this was all I needed to know to keep playing and trying to figure out the "how" part of it. And that is what I want you lot to do when you encounter something you concider op, adapt to it and think of ways to beat it, rather than deciding it is op and not trying at all and/or making million qq comments & threads about it.

Of course a better player will beat an inferior opponent, but what happens when both have the same skill? The one with the better race wins, I think this was a fact proven again and again in our random games aswell as the MRT

It's not that black and white. Back in retail when I wasn't that good I kept facing Hammer in ladder all the time (always wb vs lg), and while being swept well over 10 times by him I started adapting and making up strategies just to beat him. And as a result I started winning some games vs him despite being obviously the weaker player. No, I am not saying I suddendly won all my games vs him or even close to 50% of them, but there was clear improvement as I kept giving him a harder time and even won some games, rather than just being swept.

Same thing with Riku (apo) and Vindicare (cl), I occasionally faced them in ladder and basically in all of my tournaments I was knocked out by one of them. Pretty much the same happened, by adapting to their playstyles I started giving them significantly harder time and occasionally winning some games even though I was still clearly the weaker player.

You can beat op shit and better players with strategy when you put your mind to it.
Srsly would you rather rely on some lazy ass balance designer to fix things for you when and if he finds it convinient to do so, or would you rather do something about it yourself? Not to mention that anything you learned during your struggles will still be useful if a nerf happens.



ps. sry for ranting and hijacking the thread.

pps. I'm done here so please continue with the topic or lock the thread.

[Bahamut]

This thread started out focused on nobs and stormboys and devolved into pretty much every T1 and T2 unit in the ork roster except lootas being called out for nerfs. This thread is unfocused and includes few practical solutions, and has people barfing out contextless lists of advantages and then calling for nerfs (seriously, you can make any unit in the game sound OP if you purely list the advantages). Also... calling something OP based on 3v3s where a player gets double nobs? Come on.

That's what Toil is responding to I would guess.

i could bash you, but i rather you try to support your own claim and watch you fail

[Flash]

Seriously? I'm not a mod, but please enough. Stick to the original balance discussion, and offer useful input. If you have nothing of value to contribute to this topic then just dont post.

[Nurland]

Oooohkay... Think we should prolly just stick to the topic.

[Warp Dust Addict]

I think pretty much everyone is in a consensus that the BW gib % needs to be changed.Its ability to roll over retreating units and bleed/kill squads is way overwhelming as all it needs to do is spin around on retreat path and own everything.

[Bahamut]

Battlewaggon: why needs only one squad for full speed?. Why is deff rolla so strong?

Weirdboy: too cheap, too good. At least increase its price and take away the side effects for vomit and warpath

UYC: 35% damage for 25 seconds is fine, but why does it need to give 60 melee skill? that makes sluggas have 50% chance of proccing a special vs ASM or shees

Deff dread: too cheap

[Flash]

What numbers would you suggest for those?

I dissagree with needing to have more than 1 squad in the bw. You lose too much field presence that way imo. Do agree with deff rolla needing a fix.

No suggestions for the weird boy from me.

Thia is my reasoning for why UYC gives melee skill; the idea is for it to be able to beat things the squad normally couldn't beat in melee, and without the melee skill boost, dealing that damage to any other unit with higher base melee skill would be less effective due to specials. I'd love to hear any other interpretations as well. I have no idea whether it is OP or not.

Space for deff Dred thoughts

[Cheah18]

Please please please change weirdboy, too cheap for how gamechanging he can be imo

[BaptismByLoli]

Please please please change weirdboy, too cheap for how gamechanging he can be imo

Define Change

[Cheah18]

Define Change

I don't even know myself I don't think I'm the best person to judge what's appropriate. Either a cost increase or an ability nerf of some kind I'll leave that to people who know the game a bit better. But I feel he's too powerful as he is.

[BaptismByLoli]

I don't even know myself

<3
Meh, you and me both

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Please please please change weirdboy, too cheap for how gamechanging he can be imo

Define Change

Because he's one of the Best Sub-commanders in t2 period vs all Races. His abilities conjunction with Painboy is Powerful ,like Warp vomit debuffing the squads in the affected radius which stuns for 8 Seconds long and a great Opportunity for buffed Sluggaz w UYC and Weirdboy can just activate warpath to initiate the Chase sequence of Sluggaz to potentially wipe out the squad upon retreat . His abilities Vomit/Warpath/Over dere requires not much energy to utilize . He can dodge AOE/Manticores and his Warpath affects entire Allied armies ,so its a boon

30 Energy for Warpath lmao. Only Foot of Gork takes a chunk out of his energy pool . 400/40 can be a instant purchase (Can be no brainer purchase lol) once Ork player reaches T2 ,he's always paired with 2 Shootboyz alongside as the range force .
He can just Warpath away if Jump units tries to assassinate him and Shoota will Suppress the Jump unit and he just turn and vomit on their asses.

His abilities doesn't have a long CD if i remebered. UYC can almost be used almost every engagement for just 75 red and AB ,175 red to make Ork melee units extremely resilient to soaking damage . Deff Rolla is still too good

[appiah4]

Ork subcommanders are stupidly good for cost. They are one of my 2 main armies, and I'm ashamed to use the pain or weirdboy, especially against SM.

The battlewagon IMO is fine. Nerfing the BW is, eh, I don't know. Yes it can be really devastating but most often vehicle pathing is so stupidly dumb it's impossible to run over units with it. I find it's a most unreliable vehicle ability, might as well leave it as is, so that it actually gives some satisfaction when you actually manage to make it work.

I also feel the Big Armor for the WB is kind of underutilized?

[L0thar]

Thanks to Torpid and Radio for some tips regarding Nobs (back in page 4).

I already use TH FC, scouts, etc, but I've never tried dreads against them. I'll keep it in mind next time.

[Nurland]

Just be careful with the dread. Always have FC, scouts, devs to protect it from Nobz/commanders so it can make it out if it gets low.

Nobz will lock the dread in a cellar and violently rape it for three decades of you don't support the dread properly.

[Torpid]

Thanks to Torpid and Radio for some tips regarding Nobs (back in page 4).

I already use TH FC, scouts, etc, but I've never tried dreads against them. I'll keep it in mind next time.

Yeah, the basic idea is to just chain knockback/stuns so that you can outright outlast them, or if you can't do that just use the knockback/stuns to waste their frenzy so that you can then suppress them and shoot them to bits (with plasma tacs, ranged termies, preds or set-up teams).

For example if your opponent has tankbustas and a beamy loota from t2 because your ally was spamming chimeras obviously vanguards+plasma devs would do much more to counter nobs than a dreadnought, yet if they have a weirdboy and dual sluggas (and they went for a wartrukk in t2) getting a dread is a great aid in countering the nobs as he can stall them for quite a lot of time and bleed their models without bleeding himself and being at much risk (unlike vanguard which would bleed to the dual sluggas).

Often in all but the very highest level of games you can get away with only using a t2 centred around dreads and libby play as SM. Most orks will get nobs in t3. You have the dread to stall them when they use frenzy and in all other circumstances you have devastators to threaten them. even if they have a weirdboy to counter your devs, or you dread can't stun the nobs in time you have veil of time AND gate of infinity to get your devs out of trouble and ready to counter the entire ork blob (unless they have stikks, a rarely purchased unit in elite [and unjustifiably so]). There is also the force barrier to be used after your the emperor's fist's stun wears off, given that the nobs were stunned it's easy to hit it here while your army regroups and the nobs are pushed back. What have they achieved? Very little, they're back where they started a minute ago but now with only half hp. If they go for a looted tank then you have far less to worry about since a melta bomb+veil of time las-devs promptly deals with any vehicular threats and if tanks are really really giving you trouble despite that you can always buy a melta on your dread. This sort of build works really really well against nids, chaos, orks and other SMs alike. However leman russ/kasrkin of IG will give you issues if you don't have the tech lead and if you do often you can seal the game by just going for ranged termies. Vs eldar preds are desirable just because of how hard it can be to kill prism's otherwise. That said it's not too hard in the end so long as you have ASM. Angels of death prevents KB and be used alongside VoT las-devs and ASM to snipe prisms in t2. The FC can go for alacrity+teleport+power fist and use FTE on himself. The TM can cry to the machine gods.

[Tex]

Sucks that I got to this thread so late, seems like Toil took all the heat (which he handled quite well tbh).

Am I the only one here who thinks that nobs are an orks worst (or maybe better said, least effective) choice in T3? Are we all not recognizing that there are so many ways to absolutely punish an ork for using nobs in Elite?

I mean yes, Nobs are an immensely powerful and immensely expensive unit that can pretty much 1v1 anything but a GUO or LCAT's. That is essentially their job description. Finding those 1v1 situations however... They do exist, certainly, but good play prevents nobs from getting a lot done.

I won't go into huge detail about all the things people should be doing against nobs or w/e, but I just feel like Toil hit the nail on the head when he basically said that people need to learn and adadt. For me I translate that into "save the replays where you lose, and stop revelling in the glories of the ones where you won".
(yes yes, we are all guilty of this however)

I feel like Kommandos are great for putting the nail in the coffin as a quick T3 unit. Their AOE disruption can carry a T2 army into victory before a tank is ever even needed. They also fill that role of a quick VP capper in early T3 to prevent stalling.

Flash gitz are so powerful, however, thats only if you let them. They are absolutely helpless against shock troops of any kind.

The looted tank is crazy good when it is micro'd well. I feel like it's boomshot isn't used nearly enough and the amount of knockback it provides is awesome!

The battlewagon is completely OP in the exact same way that the Deff dread is OP. If you get it early, it's an absolute menace because it does huge amounts of damage in its "optimal usage window". Just like how the Deff dread can skurry over to a gen farm and burn it down and then get away to be repaired, the Wagon can burn down your army with the deff rolla and completely lock you in T2.

[Kvek]

I agree, I almost never get nobs with orks, kommandos cost way less and usually do more job than nobs for me

[Dark Riku]

Am I the only one here who thinks that nobs are an orks worst
(or maybe better said, least effective) choice in T3?

Probably on of the few, yes.

Are we all not recognizing that there are so many ways to absolutely punish an ork for using nobs in Elite?

No, see below.

They do exist, certainly, but good play prevents nobs from getting a lot done.

And good play from the Ork makes it nigh impossible to play good to counter the nobs.

[Torpid]

Unfortunately Riku's right. It isn't an internal balance problem with nobs for sure. Whenever nobs are OP it isn't because nobs themselves are statistically too good, rather it's often the support other heroes can give them or what the weirdboy can do alongside them. Literally everytime.

I think it's true with all claims about sluggas being OP too. I think there's a fair amount of clear evidence as of now that certain ork units synergise a bit too well with other ones given their costs.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Unfortunately Riku's right. It isn't an internal balance problem with nobs for sure. Whenever nobs are OP it isn't because nobs themselves are statistically too good, rather it's often the support other heroes can give them or what the weirdboy can do alongside them. Literally everytime.

I think it's true with all claims about sluggas being OP too. I think there's a fair amount of clear evidence as of now that certain ork units synergise a bit too well with other ones given their costs.

Sluggaz OP when their stacked with buffs with UYC/AB + BBH/Boss poles + Warpath u mean? Pair them with PB ,they can take on an entire squad. The only best Ork heroes with good supportive ones are just WB/Mekboy for Nobz,PB can add to the Surgery implant . Lv 4 Nobz 5497 hp if vaguely rmber are quite scary now with 10 Sec Invulnerability ,they can take out a Vehicle or wipe a retreating squad before they retreat again. Sigh ,even more when Weirdboy is tagging along and Vomit debuffs shinnegans or Over dere

[Tex]

I'm back from vacation and read some of this lul thread.

So in keeping in line now I'm formally requesting a nerf to las-cannon because its op when libby uses VoT on it.

hur hur

[PhatE]

I'd also like to request that using libby teleport on terminators is nerfed too.

By the way this is going anything with support is deemed OP.