Suggestion: Storm Shield Ranged Stance

[Torpid]

In which case the wargear is getting a huge buff for no reason because it isn't underperforming as is. And yes, a ~15dps ranged weapon on him alongside his ~40melee dps chainsword is a huge buff considering how the SS works and how strong it already is.

[Samaritan]

In which case the wargear is getting a huge buff for no reason because it isn't underperforming as is. And yes, a ~15dps ranged weapon on him alongside his ~40melee dps chainsword is a huge buff considering how the SS works and how strong it already is.

It would definitely be a buff, although not as huge as you make it out to be.
15dps piercing at ~22 pistol range will not win engagements. It probably won't even touch the ranged squads that the wargear is supposed to counter, but rather pop a few shots into an advancing melee squad. The strong part of the wargear will still be the ability itself.

Anyway, that's what this topic is about and I wanted to gather some opinions on the matter. It seems like most of you seem to think the shield is in a good spot and I certainly won't object since I really didn't know how to use it in the first place. I just found it to be a bit clunky.

Looking at chenneling runes, however, I can understand that certain abilities are strong enough to justify an idle comander.

[Magus Magi]

I would like to point out that the "reason" behind this proposal is rooted in game mechanics, and not in raw dps balance.

The melee nature of the SS upgrade is a little awkward as it stands now. It is often useful to have the FC babysit a ranged blob with the defend ability active, but he has no ranged stance. Not every proposed change to a wargear must correlate to that wargear's underperformance damage-wise.

Also, there's no reason to assume that it would be difficult to balance the SS with a ranged weapon. Lower the melee damage dealt, give it some basic ranged capability. People purchase it for the ability anyway.

Here's an idea, instead of having the FC do 45 damage with his melee, give him a 30 melee chainsword, and a 15 DPS bolt pistol (held in shield hand).

OR

Do the far more awesome thing, and give him a 20-30 dps bolter with his shield and implement a sweet Captain America/Riot Police style wargear (20-30 dps shield bash of justice).

[Vapor]

I don't see a reason, game mechanics or otherwise, to give the FC a ranged attack. I mean there's no expectation that every unit in your army is engaged in combat at all times, when playing Apo you don't charge him headlong into melee all the time just because his ranged weapon sucks...

[Samaritan]

I don't see a reason, game mechanics or otherwise, to give the FC a ranged attack. I mean there's no expectation that every unit in your army is engaged in combat at all times, when playing Apo you don't charge him headlong into melee all the time just because his ranged weapon sucks...

If you get the storm bolter, he is actually pretty useful in ranged combat

[Magus Magi]

Your argument boils down to "ipse dixit." "It is so, because I say it is so."

You say that because "there's no expectation that every unit in your army is engaged in combat at all times," a general principle that applies to DoW II, the specific awkwardness of not having access to the ranged stance button on the FC SS should not be addressed. Aside from the fact that it would be more interesting than another boring chainsword, the change being advocated here opens up another avenue of FC play. Why not give it a try? What would be the real harm in testing a mild, piercing damage, ranged FC weapon? Especially if that weapon is new and interesting?

I keep encountering a certain narrative on these forums. Over and over I hear, "it's fine how it is" echoed in lockstep. Sometimes it's backed up by a well reasoned argument (i.e. "If you made X change, it would create Y problem."). When there is such an argument, it demonstrates that the existing mechanic is superior to the proposed one in a substantive way. I can respect that, and I can also debate it if I so choose. But more often than not, there is no accompanying argument, and it comes off as an unnecessary defense of the status quo.

This is a mod, the whole point is to seek improvement in both content and gameplay.

[Vapor]

I don't see how the current mechanic is awkward and I don't see what would be interesting about a ranged weapon for the storm shield. Oh look, a commander supporting a ranged blob has... guess what... a ranged weapon.

Currently this wargear allows the FC to support ridiculous, damage-resistant ranged blobs. Giving the FC a ranged weapon would make this ranged blob even more powerful and difficult to deal with. It would be a significant buff since the FC isn't in melee range a lot of the time with this wargear - now he is putting out damage constantly.

One thing that works well against the storm shield is melee, since the ability grants no resistance to melee damage, and the tacs etc. can't kite when the ability is up. Giving the FC a ranged attack would make it even harder for enemy units to close for melee since they would get focused faster on the way in.

[Magus Magi]

Implicit in your post is the suggestion that any ranged DPS value would be unbalanced in conjunction with a SM ranged blob under the effects of the SS. I don't agree. Somehow, I don't think a 15-20 DPS ranged weapon on the FC, at the cost of melee damage, would make the "ridiculous" range blobs unacceptably difficult to counter.

Moreover, you say that a ranged weapon on the FC would make it difficult for melee units, because his dps would work on them during their approach of his ranged blob. But I've been suggesting that his melee damage would be lowered to compensate for the ranged damage. Lowered melee damage decreases the FC ability to counter initiate a melee unit. So, what he would gain in ranged power, he would lose in melee power.

Finally, the idea of a FC ranged weapon is more interesting because he doesn't currently possess ANY ranged option beyond a few dinky side arms. Both the CL and WB, the two most comparable melee heroes (they fulfill a similar role for their respective armies), have some kind of ranged choice available to the player. The FC has none. It would be interesting if he had one. The existing mechanic is awkward because you can't put him on ranged stance alongside a ranged blob.

[Vapor]

Well "interesting" is subjective so let's just leave it at that, personally I find ranged blobs boring

[Magus Magi]

Fair enough.

[Indrid]

Giving him a ranged weapon would screw with his default Battlecry ability. He'd not have a melee weapon for the specials which proc the buff, unless you fudge together some incredibly awkward animations or change the ability entirely.

[Samaritan]

Giving him a ranged weapon would screw with his default Battlecry ability. He'd not have a melee weapon for the specials which proc the buff, unless you fudge together some incredibly awkward animations or change the ability entirely.

We already discussed that issue. A possible solution would be to put the ranged weapon in the same hand as the shield, or make a close combat animation (including special attacks) for the shield, which would require alot of work indeed.

It's more about a change on a conceptual level. I'm not asking to implement this, but to discuss wheter it would make sense to implement it in the first place.

[Tex]

Why do we need to buff this wargear exactly? I mean, I guess I'll add it to the list for testing, but as far as I can remember, ever since it received its first buff, the stormshield has been a perfectly viable and powerful wargear.

Note worthy though, is that this wargear is one of those that you often want to be switching with another. Sort of like how some people play with boss pole/trophy rack.

[Magus Magi]

As I understand it, what's being requested is not a buff. It's an alteration. Maybe it belongs somewhere other than the "balance" forums.

I certainly didn't mean to advocate a damage buff to this wargear. I just think it would be a neat avenue for providing the FC with some kind of ranged play. That doesn't mean a ranged kit doing more, or even the same, damage as his current melee kit.

[Nurland]

Well 15-20dps is more than one tac model worth of dps... That is significant in t1. Esp. as the SS ranged blob already melts stuff pretty easily. I am not for this to be inplrmented. Pretty sure it would just make the wargear offer too much for its price.

[Samaritan]

Well 15-20dps is more than one tac model worth of dps... That is significant in t1. Esp. as the SS ranged blob already melts stuff pretty easily. I am not for this to be inplrmented. Pretty sure it would just make the wargear offer too much for its price.

14.8 DPS, range 38 is worse than 15 DPS, range 22?

I think you forgot to consider the range of both weapons. With a pistol the FC won't be able to contribute to the "melting" in a relevant way. The only real use would be to put one or two rounds into an advancing melee unit (except jump troops) and do some chip damage while pursuing when his Defense ability is turned off.

[Nurland]

Well the range does compensate it a bit but still I dislike the idea of FC having a decent ranged attack in addition to all the perks the SS brings (for 25 power). Ranged dmg resistance, extra hp, defend. Having a ranged attack of 15-20 dps is superior to melee damage increase of 5-6 dps (which it does now)

[Magus Magi]

See, I'm not sure if I agree. Right now the SS gives the FC a 45 dps melee attack. Even if it means he can't participate in ranged fighting, he's still an effective counter initiator for those melee troops that attempt to close the distance.

I don't think 15-20 piercing dps at ranged makes that much of a distance if it means his melee damage would be lowered slightly to compensate.

I really don't think 15 ranged piercing and 30 melee would make that big a deal compared to the 45 melee he does right now. Especially if his ranged attack had the lower range (although I don't think that would be necessary). 15 melee damage means just as much to the FC that 15 ranged would. Frankly, the melee damage synergizes better with his standard, "get in there and battlecry" play. The melee damage is also better for attacking retreating models/melee gap-closers.

In short, I don't think this would be a buff. It would be interesting though, and it would broaden FC play.